Penitent

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

As I noted, 40K is both full of it, but also not. Everything you noted here is true obviously, but again there is a difference between alluding to Paradise Lost, or hosts of Angels, and some Perpetual dropping a 'hey remember the Mormon's? I met Joe once, we should go look them up on Armageddon.'

 

There's more than allusion here. There are direct references as well. We see direct quotes from the works of Shakespeare, references to actual ancient cities and ancient cultures. Malcador had ancient artworks in his personal collection. These all serve to give us insight into the 30K/40K cultures and the characters that populate this fiction. As Oll's religious belief is pertinent to his character, and since he is essentially a living relic of and witness to those ancient times, it only makes sense that reference to Catholicism be more tangible. This of course is just one example. There are bound to be other essentially intact examples of ideas and artifacts. Sometimes it's a matter of who saves what over time and how important it is to them.

 

So, my question is..... who is Joe the Mormon? Is he another perpetual? Don't we have enough of these guys

Edited April 16, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[Scribe]

Chalk it up to my absolute disdain for the perpetual story then if you wish, but I wouldn't be able to roll my eyes hard enough if we had a story that contained references to Joseph Smith, and how a Perpetual held to him Mormonism.

 

Regardless, real world religion isn't to be discussed here, and I have no desire to offend anyone if faith, so I'm checking out on this.

 

Just one more example of Abnett being Abnett, and I'm super over it.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Chalk it up to my absolute disdain for the perpetual story then if you wish

For me, the perpetuals as a concept is interesting, but as far as execution here, I'm definitely with you on that, Brother I would have been more than happy if it hadn't gone past John Grammaticus as plot device in Legion.

 

.

Regardless, real world religion isn't to be discussed here, and I have no desire to offend anyone if faith, so I'm checking out on this.

Agreed and me too.

 

Just one more example of Abnett being Abnett, and I'm super over it.

Are you sure you're over it 

[DukeLeto69]

For the most part I am staying out of this “religious conversation” as I really would not want to inadvertently offend anyone.

 

As someone who is not religious, the Jesus reference(s) in Penitent didn’t have much impact. In fact right now I am struggling to remember it.

 

I don’t think it infeasible that current/real world religion(s) won’t survive in some form through to 40k, though equally they likely will have evolved or been supplanted by “something else”.

 

As my name suggests, I am a big Frank Herbert fan. The lore in Dune establishes that c.20k years from now all (but two) of the major religions (this includes those recognisable to us today and “new” ones) coalesce into a single “faith” with a shared/single “bible”.

 

I raise that as an example of sci fi writers exploring religion in the far distant future that still reads across/references real world religion.

 

It works for me.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Ooopps Guess I'm not staying out of this.

 

Frank Herbert is an excellent example of what we are talking about here. Good work on that DukeLeto69 As a religious person who spends some time on the study end of these things, I have an appreciation for good use of religion to further literary ends. Dune is one of my favorite examples, and it's clear that Frank Herbert did his homework on this. But whether positive or negative, I don't like simple shout outs, or obvious shallow understanding (i.e. lack of research) when using faith references (or any references, whether religious, historical, scientific, etc.). Clearly, Dan Abnett's faith references here and in other works are not major themes, but good, simple use in the area of character development, and that works for me too.

[Scribe]

Are you sure you're over it

Truthfully no. It's an irritation that won't be removed, especially as the IP team now bends to his desires.

 

To say I sit in perpetual (ha!) fear over how poorly the Siege series will be finished, is an understatement.

 

So no, not over it, further removed from caring about a setting he has seemingly increasing influence over?

 

Yeah.

[DukeLeto69]

@Scribe I think it is about time you REALLY told us how you feel about Abnett!!!!

 

Joking aside, I hear you and have some sympathy regarding the Perpetuals. Not much of a fan of that storyline/plot device myself. However, you just know you and I won’t ever agree on pretty much everything else to do with Abnett.

 

Gotta say I did think your dislike/hatred of Abnett was actually restricted to the Horus Heresy but it seems it us everything he writes?

[Scribe]

@Scribe I think it is about time you REALLY told us how you feel about Abnett!!!!

 

Joking aside, I hear you and have some sympathy regarding the Perpetuals. Not much of a fan of that storyline/plot device myself. However, you just know you and I won’t ever agree on pretty much everything else to do with Abnett.

 

Gotta say I did think your dislike/hatred of Abnett was actually restricted to the Horus Heresy but it seems it us everything he writes?

It seems considering he's now getting permission to impact the wider setting as a whole, and his themes are injected now into other works?

 

No it's not just the heresy he's impacting.

 

Fine writer, but his desire to 'add' things that imo alter the setting is unacceptable to me.

 

How I really feel, has not even been stated. This isn't even my final form!

[Brother Lunkhead]

The Chaos pantheon rejoices in the purity of Scribe's hate

[Scribe]

The Chaos pantheon rejoices in the purity of Scribe's hate

Probably, now I think I'll break again till ADB provides a Siege entry I'll pay for.

[DukeLeto69]

 

@Scribe I think it is about time you REALLY told us how you feel about Abnett!!!!

 

Joking aside, I hear you and have some sympathy regarding the Perpetuals. Not much of a fan of that storyline/plot device myself. However, you just know you and I won’t ever agree on pretty much everything else to do with Abnett.

 

Gotta say I did think your dislike/hatred of Abnett was actually restricted to the Horus Heresy but it seems it us everything he writes?

It seems considering he's now getting permission to impact the wider setting as a whole, and his themes are injected now into other works?

 

No it's not just the heresy he's impacting.

 

Fine writer, but his desire to 'add' things that imo alter the setting is unacceptable to me.

 

How I really feel, has not even been stated. This isn't even my final form!

See I don’t get this view (not specifically you but a fair few 40k fans) that the setting cannot be “altered” seems odd. The setting has changed over the past 30yrs. The baseline principles remain the same but around that things have been tweaked, changed, dropped, returned (star child anyone?)

 

So if GW High Lords were happy with the proposed Lore impacting ideas that Abnett sought permission to write about, then how is that any different from Alan Merrit writing up the visions of heresy or before that William King writing a White Dwarf article?

[Scribe]

Okay last one.

 

How is it different?

 

I absolutely loathe what Dans done with perpetuals, and Space Wolves, and how both poisoned the Well, and bled over into other works to the point where it's almost as if the Heresy is their (and therefore his!) Story.

 

That's it. It's a plot arc that has only further rose in prominence, and shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

So for him to now (continue imo) get even MORE rope to make changes to the lore?

 

Well, to say it's annoying is an understatement, but it's not surprising, because for my dollar he's been given the most leeway for decades because he's Dan Abnett, not because his changes are any :cussing good.

[Carach]

wow, this thread is pretty much nothing to do with Penitent at all at this point, but a really odd personal bashing of unrelated threads in other novels, and some utterly baffling complaints about referencing what is to the characters involved ancient histories and mythology...

 

I would almost say mod intervention is required to clean the last page and a half up.

 

"Poisoned the well" indeed.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Carach

[Scribe]

Apologies Carach. Lunkhead, feel free to nuke whatever you deem in need of nuking. :D

[Lucerne]

There's something to be said for inappropriate references...done by basically the whole stable that isn't Abnett, who handles it brilliantly most of the time.

[Knockagh]

utterly baffling complaints about referencing what is to the characters involved ancient histories and mythology...

 

"Poisoned the well" indeed.

And there we have it. Sorry if you felt it utterly baffling. I was finding the conversation interesting and very civil. Being a simple soul I think words and concepts inside the book can be discussed. The author put them there. 2207

[Scribe]

 

utterly baffling complaints about referencing what is to the characters involved ancient histories and mythology...

 

"Poisoned the well" indeed.

And there we have it. Sorry if you felt it utterly baffling. I was finding the conversation interesting and very civil. Being a simple soul I think words and concepts inside the book can be discussed. The author put them there. 2207

I'm fairly sure that it's not directed at you, but at me.

 

Which is fine, but I wouldn't want you to take offense over a comment likely meant to dig at me. ;)

[Knockagh]

 

 

utterly baffling complaints about referencing what is to the characters involved ancient histories and mythology...

 

"Poisoned the well" indeed.

And there we have it. Sorry if you felt it utterly baffling. I was finding the conversation interesting and very civil. Being a simple soul I think words and concepts inside the book can be discussed. The author put them there. 2207

I'm fairly sure that it's not directed at you, but at me.

 

Which is fine, but I wouldn't want you to take offense over a comment likely meant to dig at me. ;)

Haha like I said I’m a simple soul! I’ve found the conversation interesting anyway and certainly not offensive

[b1soul]

So what's the objection to 40K having references to its "ancient" past, including very old Terran religions?

 

It just sounds like the execution (by Abnett mainly) is really not to your taste.

 

I think the principle is absolutely fine.

[mc warhammer]

i'll admit the cross thing stuck out for me when i read it, but i don't know if that's an execution thing or more that it was conspicuous because there weren't any other references in 30k to christianity existing at one time so it was exception. but it was an exception that made sense on reflection.

 

can anyone spoiler in detail what the penitent stuff says/does?

Edited April 17, 2021 by mc warhammer

[Brother Lunkhead]

Okay.... looks like we're back on track with Penitent.

 

Even though I'm familiar with the cross reference, I've only skimmed the book, so it might be better if someone else started this off. I detailed spoiler might be appropriate at this point, for those who want in on the conversation but haven't sat down with the book yet. Don't forget those spoiler tags though

 

I will say this though. Keep in mind that religion and faith are touchy subjects, but legitimate subjects for discussion. Let's just make sure we keep the conversation focused on how it pertains to the subject at hand as well as keeping it respectful to all involved and all points of view.

[DarkChaplain]

Skimming.... Penitent... what? I'm sorry, but THAT takes the cake for the most baffling thing in this thread now :') That's one book I'd refuse to even pick up if I wasn't willing to dive fully into it!

[b1soul]

No reference to real-world religion stuck out to me in Penitent. The minor reference to QWERTY stuck out more to me while I was reading.

 

What stuck out to me most was the Dickens-esque vibes I got from Queen Mab, which I found to be refreshing. Just reinforces my view of the 40K IP as one of the most versatile out there: it's able to accommodate almost any fictional trope out there.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Skimming.... Penitent... what? I'm sorry, but THAT takes the cake for the most baffling thing in this thread now :') That's one book I'd refuse to even pick up if I wasn't willing to dive fully into it!

I know, I know, some books need to be savored, and I'll eventually get there with this one. Unfortunately, my schedule for the foreseeable future doesn't give me time to sit down and relax with a good book. These days, it's usually ten to twenty minutes before bed. I also tend to read the ending of books to see if they're worth picking up  It's mostly about the journey to me.

 

What stuck out to me most was the Dickens-esque vibes I got from Queen Mab, which I found to be refreshing. Just reinforces my view of the 40K IP as one of the most versatile out there: it's able to accommodate almost any fictional trope out there.

Agreed When I first read (no skimming here) Pariah, almost a decade ago, one of the first things that struck me was a strong sense of Dickens and Poe. I still get that with Penitent as well. That's a good point about the versatility of 40K fiction, and that is an important aspect that drew me to it initially. The best ones still check off all the boxes for me.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[DukeLeto69]

@Brother Lunkhead you read the end of the book first!!!!

 

That’s very Harry Met Sally of you!