Autocannon vs heavy bolter

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Just wondering if I'm the only one who has been feeling that the hvy bolter buff of 9th was also a shadow nerf of the autocannon.

 

Heavy2 S7 D1 AP-1 vs Heavy3 S5 D2.

 

Autocannon has been a weapon for dealing with elite infantry, and light vehicles, but the HB buff seems to completely blow the AC away in dealing with elite infantry and more or less an even trade off against light vehicles.

 

Let's take a Primaris Agressor as an example.

 

50-50 chance of wounding, and 2 hits provides 4 wounds only 3 are needed to kill an aggressor.

 

An autocannon has a 75% ish chance to wound after scoring a hit, but it's impossible for a single autocannon to kill that same aggressor in a single round of shooting. Not sure really how much that AP-1 closes the gap, but it still remains impossible for a single autocannon to kill an aggressor.

 

Against T6&7 units the autocannon will have a better chance of wounding, but each hit has less impact on target when a wound does go through...

 

Just curious how everyone feels about it.

[jarms48]

The heavy bolter is:

36" Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 D2

 

The autocannon is:

48" Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 D2

 

If I recall, the autocannon performs similar to the heavy bolter against T5 and T7. The autocannon also outperforms the heavy bolter against T6 but loses against T3, T4, and T8. So the heavy bolter is typically the better option against most threats. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by jarms48

[XeonDragon]

The heavy bolter is:

36" Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 D2

 

The autocannon is:

48" Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 D2

 

If I recall, the autocannon performs similar to the heavy bolter against T5 and T7. The autocannon also outperforms the heavy bolter against T6 but loses against T3, T4, and T8. So the heavy bolter is typically the better option against most threats. 

 

Agreed. I'd also add that the grav cannon and amp, with an extra shot and extra AP, flat damage against targets with a 3+ save is even better than a heavy bolter. I can never really find a niche that the autocannon fills well. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

The heavy bolter is:

36" Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 D2

 

The autocannon is:

48" Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 D2

 

If I recall, the autocannon performs similar to the heavy bolter against T5 and T7. The autocannon also outperforms the heavy bolter against T6 but loses against T3, T4, and T8. So the heavy bolter is typically the better option against most threats.

Agreed. I'd also add that the grav cannon and amp, with an extra shot and extra AP, flat damage against targets with a 3+ save is even better than a heavy bolter. I can never really find a niche that the autocannon fills well.

breaks my heart because I built a LR exterminator about 3 months before they announced the HB buff lol.

 

TBF I knew exterminator wasn't the most powerful but oh well lol

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The heavy bolter is:

36" Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 D2

 

The autocannon is:

48" Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 D2

 

If I recall, the autocannon performs similar to the heavy bolter against T5 and T7. The autocannon also outperforms the heavy bolter against T6 but loses against T3, T4, and T8. So the heavy bolter is typically the better option against most threats.

you are correct, my bad lol, but ya it seems that more shots outweighs higher strength or slightly higher AP in the 5-7 range. Just like the Intercessor bolt rifle options Edited March 23, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Jings]

Autocannons are just worse Heavy Bolters and weren't all that good even before Heavy Bolters got their D2. They should be D3 to make up the anti-light vehicle threat they lost in the transition to 8th imo, at least then they'd have a niche as the hammer to the Lascannon's scalpel. 

[WarriorFish]

I think the D2 was what helped the Autocannon stand out, so the Heavy Bolter matching it takes away one of the main reasons to take them. As good as this is for HBs it's not good to supplant another option. The range is nice as is the strength, but the versatility of HBs is hard to pass up especially if you expect to be facing Marines a lot (as most surely are).

 

It's a shame as the Autocannon is one of the Guard classics. I wonder if something small like going to AP-2 could be the boost it needs? It would help it perform better against armour which is the intended use of the weapon?

[sairence]

I think the D2 was what helped the Autocannon stand out, so the Heavy Bolter matching it takes away one of the main reasons to take them. As good as this is for HBs it's not good to supplant another option. The range is nice as is the strength, but the versatility of HBs is hard to pass up especially if you expect to be facing Marines a lot (as most surely are).

 

It's a shame as the Autocannon is one of the Guard classics. I wonder if something small like going to AP-2 could be the boost it needs? It would help it perform better against armour which is the intended use of the weapon?

AP -2 AC are pretty nice for some supporting fire. Lambdan Lions get them ob their Taurox Primes.

[duz_]

To me the heavy bolter has been king since 8th edition. The change in to wound rolls made S5 the new king taking over from S6 (assault cannon).

 

The added damage to the HB just improves it more. Points being equal I see very little value in the AC.

 

Even the added range on the smaller board size doesn't make a significant difference.

 

Added ap would help or an extra shot like what the Accelerator autocannon got

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think the D2 was what helped the Autocannon stand out, so the Heavy Bolter matching it takes away one of the main reasons to take them. As good as this is for HBs it's not good to supplant another option. The range is nice as is the strength, but the versatility of HBs is hard to pass up especially if you expect to be facing Marines a lot (as most surely are).

 

It's a shame as the Autocannon is one of the Guard classics. I wonder if something small like going to AP-2 could be the boost it needs? It would help it perform better against armour which is the intended use of the weapon?

I don't see the range as much of a big deal this edition. 36" reaches pretty much across the table unless you're using the largest size table shooting from corner to corner.

[War Angel]

I think the auto cannon wasn’t updated yet because Marines don’t have it. When the guard codex is released the auto cannon will see a change.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think the auto cannon wasn’t updated yet because Marines don’t have it. When the guard codex is released the auto cannon will see a change.

i hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

I have 6 autocannons in my army lol

[jarms48]

I think the auto cannon wasn’t updated yet because Marines don’t have it. When the guard codex is released the auto cannon will see a change.

I don’t think it will. The Ad-Mech autocannons are the same, but are assault 2. Thanks to being cognis (spelling?) weapons.

 

What’s perhaps more interesting is heavy stubbers becoming 4 shots (fingers crossed they also do for Guard). Makes them a very efficient choice.

Edited April 8, 2021 by jarms48

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I think the auto cannon wasn’t updated yet because Marines don’t have it. When the guard codex is released the auto cannon will see a change.

I don’t think it will. The Ad-Mech autocannons are the same, but are assault 2. Thanks to being cognis (spelling?) weapons.

 

What’s perhaps more interesting is heavy stubbers becoming 4 shots (fingers crossed they also do for Guard). Makes them a very efficient choice.

omg autocannons being assault for guard would be crazy! Lol

Would make them an auto-take for infantry units.

 

If only

Edited April 11, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[domsto]

I am afraid Guard will get nothing of these Changes, as all the Weapons shown in the Leak are Cognis Weapons and are therefore Mechanicus exlusive.

But hope dies last i guess^^

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I am afraid Guard will get nothing of these Changes, as all the Weapons shown in the Leak are Cognis Weapons and are therefore Mechanicus exlusive.

But hope dies last i guess^^

trooper! Your lack of faith is very disturbing. Do you not believe in the holy emperor? Do you not trust his holiness to provide for his beloved imperial guard?

[Shamansky]

 

I am afraid Guard will get nothing of these Changes, as all the Weapons shown in the Leak are Cognis Weapons and are therefore Mechanicus exlusive.

But hope dies last i guess^^

trooper! Your lack of faith is very disturbing. Do you not believe in the holy emperor? Do you not trust his holiness to provide for his beloved imperial guard?

 

Pardon me, Your Highness, but isn't that "Holy Emperor" you are talking about?

 

And one more. Hope is the first step to heresy. Faith is what protects His loyal servants and His Eternal Light is what guides us.

[domsto]

My trust in the Emperor is unshaken Inquistor. I am only concern about the abilitys of some of his servants, Adeptus Games Workshop has a flawed History.

 

Now for real^^

I am sure Guard will get a similar lethality boost as every other Faction when the Codex drops, as this seems to be the Design Idea behind every other Codex so far.

If it is good for the Game when everything is stupidly lethal, is a question that would go way off topic here^^

Edited April 13, 2021 by domsto

[Cap'm Heckus]

Both the accelerator autocannon and ironhail autocannon for marines get 3 shots base (6 on the twin). I could our’s going to heavy 3 also. Edited April 14, 2021 by Cap'm Heckus

[jarms48]

Both the accelerator autocannon and ironhail autocannon for marines get 3 shots base (6 on the twin). I could our’s going to heavy 3 also.

If ours go to heavy 3 then there’s no point to take heavy bolters again, if they remain both at 10 points that is. Though the next problem is if the autocannon goes to 15 points it’s literally the same situation. 3 heavy bolters is 30 points and 9 shots, or 2 autocannons is 30 points and 6 shots.

 

Honestly, I think the best thing is just make them AP-2. Then on the Leman Russ Exterminator you make it heavy 6 or heavy 8 depending on its points cost, while on the Hydra you make it flat damage 3.

[War Angel]

 

I think the auto cannon wasn’t updated yet because Marines don’t have it. When the guard codex is released the auto cannon will see a change.

I don’t think it will. The Ad-Mech autocannons are the same, but are assault 2. Thanks to being cognis (spelling?) weapons.

What’s perhaps more interesting is heavy stubbers becoming 4 shots (fingers crossed they also do for Guard). Makes them a very efficient choice.

Seeing as those are cognis autocannons, that shouldn’t mean anything for us. Otherwise we could use the accelerator autocannon as a point proving there will be a change. But we can’t.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Both the accelerator autocannon and ironhail autocannon for marines get 3 shots base (6 on the twin). I could our’s going to heavy 3 also.

If ours go to heavy 3 then there’s no point to take heavy bolters again, if they remain both at 10 points that is. Though the next problem is if the autocannon goes to 15 points it’s literally the same situation. 3 heavy bolters is 30 points and 9 shots, or 2 autocannons is 30 points and 6 shots.

 

Honestly, I think the best thing is just make them AP-2. Then on the Leman Russ Exterminator you make it heavy 6 or heavy 8 depending on its points cost, while on the Hydra you make it flat damage 3.

personally I think the hvy bolter should have been buffed to heavy 4 if they wanted to buff it. That would have kept it in its anti-hoard niche.

Either that make auto cannons S7 AP-2 D3 but that's dangerously close to a dedicated AT weapon.

[domsto]

One could argue that GW wrote themselfs into a corner by buffing the Heavy Bolter to D2

As it is now the Heavy Bolter makes the Autocannon obsolete, but if you buff the Autocannon to say heavy 3 or DS-2 the Heavy Bolter becomes obsolete.

I am of the opinion that the Heavy Bolter should never been buffed to D2, instead rather to Heavy 4 or Heavy 5 as it is still a fullauto Weapon.

But to be total honest, isn't this all just theorycrafting? As the only unit i can think of that has a choice between AC or HB are Heavy Weapon Teams.

And all the other Autocannon like Weapons like the Hydraautocannon or the Exterminatorautocannon are technically speaking diffrent weapons and can be buffed without buffing the normal AC

[jarms48]

 

But to be total honest, isn't this all just theorycrafting? As the only unit i can think of that has a choice between AC or HB are Heavy Weapon Teams.

 

Whilst this is true, you do have to factor in the impact between units with only heavy bolters or only autocannons. As changing one to be better than the other could completely shift the meta to the other unit type being preferred. 

 

You have to remember that Chaos and GSC are also big users of autocannons. So any changes would also affect them. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

My trust in the Emperor is unshaken Inquistor. I am only concern about the abilitys of some of his servants, Adeptus Games Workshop has a flawed History.

 

Now for real^^

I am sure Guard will get a similar lethality boost as every other Faction when the Codex drops, as this seems to be the Design Idea behind every other Codex so far.

If it is good for the Game when everything is stupidly lethal, is a question that would go way off topic here^^

legends chimeras can choose between the two. Also that's not really the point.

The point is that now hvy bolters fill the same role as autocannons.