Volkite weapons incoming

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Do we have points costs for them yet?

[The boater]

Well I’m hoping that they changed the rules up a little. I mean they have had a bit of time to realize that the community is never going to play em in the current state, lol

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I doubt that, they seem to have a really weird view of how the meta in this game works.

 

I sometimes wonder if the design team realise just how unbalanced Vulcans are? The problem with them is they're too cheap and too good.

Imagine if there were no VMBs on Warhounds, you'd really have to think about weapon choices a lot more, and something like Volkite, with the ability to land 5 shots on shields would start to look really interesting. The other weapons just don't cut it for shields, Lasers are only good if you push, which you don't really want to do, because Warhounds can't deal with heat well, but even then. best case scenario is 2 saves at -1 per weapon. Flamers are difficult to deploy, and not very effective outside of maniple or legio bonuses, and Plasmas are for a different job entirely, (but even they are often better at stripping shields than lasers because they can land a possible 4 hits with two attacks.)
But with VMBs, the choice is removed because they are essentially an autotake, they work better at close range, which is fine on the fastest most manoeuvrable titan chassis in the game, they don't cause heat, can potentially land up to 12 hits! They have no real drawbacks, and are cheap as chips. Why take anything else? The only limiting factor I have on them in my legio is how many I physically own!

All this is a shame, because auto-takes are essentially bad game design. 
 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Noserenda]

Yeah we were discussing today how the Bolter and Plasma kinda warp the cost of all warhounds because those guns are on another level to the other options, but given the tiny margins on warhound weapons they are just a no brainer. 

Unlike the Volkites, which just suck.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Noserenda

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't think they do suck though, they're better than lasers for instance, they're just being touted as doing the same job as Vulcans, but they're much, much worse at it.

 

(Then again, I think even shock Lances are better than lasers, because at least they're fun to gamble on, and cheap.) Like I said, in a world with no Vulcans, these Volkite would be king. (Provided they're coated appropriately.)

 

The only advantage of lasers half the time is that they give a decent result in magazine detonation.

 

I just don't know what the answer is with Vulcans. Even at 20pts, you'd still take them, because they're too good at stripping shields, and often great at getting that final killing blow once the armour and arc bonuses come into play.

Then it's either a dice reduction, or adding a negative trait, I just don't know which one.

[Gattopardo]

Well I think these questions are very tricky. I agree that the VMB (on the Warhound) is too cheap, and the plasma blastgun is too powerful, so logically the VMB should see a five or ten point hike and the plasma blastgun should probably drop to one dice. That could create problems though, because although the Warhound has access to cheap and very powerful guns, it's still got a lot of weaknesses as a chassis, so it's not like Warhounds are really overpowered. So, if you nerf their best guns, you might find you've altered the game balance in a way you didn't necessarily expect.

 

On the other hand it's true that the VMB and plasma blastgun are pretty much auto takes, and that is bad for the game. I feel that lasers generally need a bit of a boost. Flamers too of course.

 

When it comes to something like the VMB there are other options. You could make it limited (4) or something, to reflect how it burns through ammunition. That way it would still hit just as effectively, but would have a clear disadvantage versus energy weapons or stuff that is powered by the reactor. It's not necessarily obvious why this should apply to the VMB but not the various gatlings or missiles (although those guns are very very efficient too - so maybe it should).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Limited is a great shout. It would make practical sense too, as the magazines are only small, and there's no way for more ammo to be transferred from the torso to the magazines.

That would really help re-balance the decision making for Vulcans. Awesome idea.

 

I feel like what lasers need is something other than draining to get the shieldbane, I think it would be a better mechanic if it worked more like maximal, in that you only generate heat on misses?

Edited June 1, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Noserenda]

Id definitely remove blast from the plasma blastgun, i think that immediately balances it out against its peers and makes sense compared to the 40k version and the bigger plasma gun off the Warlord. 

The Vulcan is trickier, id consider dropping its strength so its less all around effective but it does rip through tanks and the like in fluff so 6 is probably about right tbh. Limited does feel like an alright solution but im not sure about the book keeping tbh.

Good point on not nerfing warhounds, tbh the nerf to Lupercal maniples feels like a reaction to these already, though it obviously hits all the weapons equally so its not much use on weapon balance.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

if you dropped the strength on a Vulcan, they'd probably disappear from the table, because S3 can't pop shields. Look how often you see Avenger Gatlings on knights...

(It's Strength 4, with 6 Dice btw)

[Mandragola]

I think the lupercal maniple change makes more of a difference to VMBs than higher-strength things. In reality going from S5-6 can end up making the gun twice as effective (needing 5s to damage instead of 6s, for example) whereas taking a plasma gun from S11-12 will certainly help, but not quite so much.

 

PBGs are a big problem. They're far more powerful than any other warhound gun and honestly any Reaver gun either. They're only marginally less good than a sunfury, and actually better against grouped up targets. Against knights they're on a par with the bellicosa or quake cannon. The maximal trait is no big deal when you're only firing two shots. You're pretty unlikely to gain heat, far less so than when firing a draining weapon, and with no risk of machine spirit silliness.

 

VMBs aren't just the best shield-breaker. They're also an excellent finisher. When you just need to cause one or two direct hits to kill off an engine (e.g. when you just hit it with a PBG) then this is the gun you want. I think this is particularly problematic when looking at the volkite. It can kind of compete as a shield-breaker, though it does seem a bit worse, but it just doesn't look like any kind of finisher at all. That may change if it has some accuracy bonuses or something, but right now the VMB is just far better for targeted shots, mainly due to the rapid trait.

 

The Warlord volkite looks like an entirely different proposition, however. The fact it can fire as a beam makes it a fantastic finisher. Being an excellent finisher means it might actually get to use the beam effect to hit further targets from time to time. I can definitely see myself putting one or two of these into an extermigus maniple, replacing some of the macro-gatling cannons I currently use. The macro-gatling isn't rapid so it's not quite such a great finisher or shield stripper as the VMB, and anyway Warlords have carapace missiles and gatlings for that job.

[LameBeard]

There are some interesting ideas here. I’d be tempted to disallow targeting on any rapid weapons (or barrage, and maybe even ordinance for that matter). This then leaves laser weapons as pretty much the only thing that can target at range, and hence a stealth buff to them. Surely Mega-bolter or Gatling is not a precision weapon, so I don’t think this is too far off the fluff either?

[Gattopardo]

I think the problem with disallowing targeting on those weapons is that the lasers aren't actually that great as finishers. None of them get accuracy bonuses and they don't have the volume of fire to make up for that. The only possible exceptions are the carapace lasers on the Warlord as they get more shots, but they often can't fire and are harder to line up on a target. Plus the laser blaster has a penalty at long range. So if you go down that route, it will be pretty difficult to actually finish stuff off. The fluff is tricky as it doesn't always translate like you might expect. For example, it's fairly clear in the fluff that a Belicosa can one shot an unshielded engine - which seems sensible - but it can't do that in the game. And that's probably a good thing in general (although actually I wouldn't be opposed to a special rule for the Belicosa to reflect its prominence as a Titan killer - but that's a separate discussion).

 

I hope we get to see the full stats on Warhammer Community (or the FW web page) for these volkites though - I'm very intrigued to see the points costs. The Warlord one definitely looks interesting so I'll pick up a couple of those for sure, I think; not sure about the others. I do hope they've found a way to make them viable, though I don't have high expectations.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Gattopardo

[LameBeard]

So how about this idea: Vulcans should lose “rapid” - it’s already got 6 dice to represent weight of fire.

 

Then the laser weapons gain rapid (alongside shieldbane) with draining - ie for one point of heat they get both benefits. It’s only a small buff because of the low number of dice, but represents the laser burning through at the additional intensity.

 

And yes, I agree rules do not need to slavishly follow fluff. We wouldn’t end up with a game if that happened, but it’s nice when you can.

 

Like when knights attack a Titan in close combat, I haven’t seen any rules that mean attacks automatically target the legs, but wouldn’t this be a fun rule and make sense? Sorry, I’m veering off topic.

 

I’m still tempted by the volkite weapons because I think they look cool. And manoeuvring to try to set up a ‘beam’ shot could be interesting, but I think would rarely pay off in the games I expect to play.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Perhaps give lasers Shieldbreaker, with shieldbane still being draining? (Only say Shieldbreaker (1)?) That way you get a slightly better weight of fire, without having to push every time.

 

The thing with lasers is they aren't firing lots of shots, they're firing high intensity beams, whereas Volkite are firing longer beams at a lower strength.

 

I like Vulcans having rapid, but Limited as Gattopardo suggests would be a nice balance, as you're less likely to have shots left towards the end of the game when you need it as a finisher, that would stealth buff things like Volkite which would have unlimited ammo. (It would be great if the extra two hits applied generally, not just to shields)

 

Lamebeard, there were in fact more detailed combat rules tested in the design stage where scale had an impact on melee targetting, but they dropped it as too complicated. i.e. a Questoris couldn't hit a Warlord in the head, because they can't reach.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Honestly, I think an easy fix for the volkite stats would be to extend their range out to 32" so they have a specific niche between vulcans and apocs - at 28mm scale, heavy weapon volkites have the same range as lascannon so them being the same range as vulkans seems a bit off, as well as making them compete for the same space. That and maybe give them innate shieldbane?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Los to damage location is easily one of the weaker parts of the game. If they want it to work properly they need to get some pictures like the 30k books to detail when body turns into weapon/carapace/special.

 

Also blasts and barrage not interacting with it in any way.

Edited June 1, 2021 by SkimaskMohawk

[General Zodd]

…and the Warlord weapons went out of stock (on the UK site at least) astonishingly quickly! Given its Beam rule makes it significantly more useful than the others, I’m not totally surprised. It still baffles me how little FW seem to be able to predict likely sales, though!

[Mendi Warrior]

I checked about 30 minutes later than the announcement and they were already out of stock, on both UK and Belgium at least.

The Styrix is marked as "sold out - no longer available" but that was also the case with the Warlord vulcan mega-bolters, which are back in stock now. I hope they'll replenish the stocks ...

Anyway, I already spent too much lately so I'll wait (and my new credit card is not activated yet ... a blessing in disguise  )

[SkimaskMohawk]

Seems like a regional allocation thing. The North American stuff is still available.

[Master Ciaphas]

Hail!

 

Well - when I ordered this morning, the Warlord Choom-weapon was Out of Stock / temp. unavailable. So, I have settled for two Reaver Chooms and two Warhound Chooms. I think they look ace. And since I do not compete in tournaments and such, it is less important how powerful they are, and far more important to add variety to my lists for the sake of narrative.

 

Faithfully,

Master Ciaphas

[schoon]

I'm generally a fairly loyal FW customer, in that I pick up a pair of almost everything, whether I need it or not.

 

I figure some things are worth buying, not because I really need them, but to support the game (and thus hopefully have more products in the future).

 

I'm having a hard time getting excited about these though. The preview rules really took the wind out of my sails (or sales in this case)...

[Mandragola]

Yeah I know what you mean. I was probably more excited about them than you. I did want a couple of Warlord ones at least. Then I found they were sold out and I was only slightly annoyed. Turns out I just don't care that much about them, and I'm pretty happy that I'll get to see their full rules before I do eventually buy them - which I probably will do once they're back in stock. I just didn't really need to add to my "to do" pile of stuff for such a negligibly-different gun to what I have already.

[Noserenda]

Honestly i think it would be healthier for the game long term to ignore these and buy some more plastic with the money, everyone could do with more Knights and warhounds :D If plastic sales stay strong and the resin gathers dust hopefully theyll stop using it as a stopgap so often.

[Master Ciaphas]

Very true, that, Noserenda. However...it is far easier (and quicker) to paint a few CHOOM weapons, than that Warmaster Titan I have been eyeing... :-)

[mycelium guy]

Just thought I would let people know that I got an email through saying warlord volkites were back in stock (UK store).

 

I know they sold out almost instantly so there are probably others here who missed out.

 

I managed to order one which I'm planning to paint up for a sinister warlord im working on... Double beam weapons sounded like they could be a cool combo (even if it isn't a competitive choice)

Edited June 17, 2021 by mycelium guy