Did the Judiciar position exist before Primaris?

[JeffJedi]

Simple enough question, fluffwise. The Judiciar is one of the only character ranks not filled both by Primaris and Firstborn marines.

[mel_danes]

Nothing suggests it was.

[derLumpi]

Nope, he didn't exist.

[Felix Antipodes]

Which begs the question...why does it exist now? Have they had such an influx of Primaris wanting to become chaplains that they needed to create a career progression path for them? Inquiring minds need an answer ;-)

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Which begs the question...why does it exist now? Have they had such an influx of Primaris wanting to become chaplains that they needed to create a career progression path for them? Inquiring minds need an answer ;-)

 

Realistically, it was probably just to sell a cool new solo model with a giant executioner blade. It could have easily been a squad of executioners, this is probably what FW and 30K would have done, for example a SW unit of head hunters, but since it's a 40K Primaris solo, they integrated it into the HQ/command structure lore, just like they've added a bunch of Phobos Lieutenants to fit the more upscale individual Phobos sculpts.

 

Before, we just had "Chaplains" and "Chaplains that might cave your skull in if you stepped out of line". There was just no way of knowing which one you were assigned as a new neophyte! Now we have the Judiciar and his disciplinary paddle to keep the riff raff in check.

[Xenith]

Blood Angels had a rank/role of Judiciar in the Horus Heresy, the named example being Aster Crohne. I think the role was essentially that of a Moritat, but possibly tied into the Burning Eyes/secret police of the Chapter. 

[apologist]

Simple enough question, fluffwise. The Judiciar is one of the only character ranks not filled both by Primaris and Firstborn marines.

 

In terms of lore, I don't think it's quite black and white. There are plenty of examples of things that pop up in-game or universe that don't exist prior – but that fit in perfectly well; particularly when they fill a perceived gap. The Judiciar could be an example of a new rank created (in-universe) for Primaris specifically, but thematically they work just as well as (say) a different specialism of Librarians.

 

To take an example of something similar, Librarians have long had ranks (Codicier, Lexicanium etc.) in the background, each of which were represented in-game with different rules and statlines. Chaplains didn't; or at least, not in specific name. Later, Chaplains picked up a rank structure; Master of Sanctity, Reclusiarch etc. 

 

However, we can assume that the Master of Sanctity role existed in-universe; it simply wasn't picked out specifically; in the same way that the Chief Victualler rank does not (yet) have rules.

 

Similarly, there have been editions of the game where a Librarian's power selection is more relevant than their rank: some of the ranks disappeared from the game – but still existed in the lore.

 

Personally, I can see the Judiciar being an extant rank – perhaps just a rarer one. Alternatively, perhaps it's a specialism (like a particular psychic discipline) that isn't directly reflected in rank; in the same way that Tactical Marines don't outrank Assault Marines, or that the Chief Victualler remains a Captain in rank.

Edited March 30, 2021 by apologist

[WrathOfTheLion]

There were executioners in the Horus Heresy, whose job was to execute astartes that went out of line. So the job itself existed. There's some nice lore in Book 7 about how the VI legion especially needed this prior to finding Leman Russ and Fenris.

 

I don't remember seeing anything on the position of Judiciar, but what they do has been reflected in previous lore.

Edited March 30, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Brother Tyler]

The closest thing to a Judiciar in old lore (i.e., that of an apprentice Chaplain) was a position called an "initiate" that was only really mentioned during 1st edition (although there was something similar in one of the Black Templars stories about Grimaldus - the one with the Celestial Lions). In essence, battle-brothers that had been recognized for their piety and devotion were apprenticed to chaplains, training to one day fulfill that role while assisting the chaplain in performing his duties.

 

Chaplains are drawn from the ranks, although only Marines who have earned both Merit and Devout badges are considered for a Chaplaincy. These awards may be displayed as actual badges, or for example, as diagonal stripes painted across the right shoulder pad.

 

As a first step, a Marine is singled out to aid the Chaplain of his company as a Novice (or Initiate - the terms are almost interchangeable). Duties often involve little more than helping during company rituals, but deep study of the liturgies under a Chaplain's personal tuition is also necessary.

 

Should a Chaplaincy fall vacant, the most advanced and promising of the Initiates is sent to the Solitarium. This small cell is situated in a secluded part of the monastery and here the Initiate meditates and fasts for a time. He may be left there for up to a week, while his investiture by the Reclusiarch and the Master of Sanctity is prepared. Then in front of the whole Chapter, he is formally given his symbols of office and presented to the company who are now under his spiritual guidance. At this point the new Chaplain takes the name of his predecessor.

 

When a Chaplain is killed in battle a formal ceremony often has to wait. The senior Initiate immediately takes the helmet and shoulder pads of the Chaplain and dons them. From the moment he puts on the old Chaplain's war-gear he has full authority as one of the Chapter's spiritual leaders. He is formally invested as a new Chaplain only when the battle is won and the dead are absolved.

(I think this article may also have been reprinted in the Index Astartes Apocrypha book, but I'm too lazy to check my copy (whereas my copy of the compendium is on the shelf next to my desk).

 

That article didn't include rules for these neophytes/initiates and the closest thing that might have been used to represent them in later editions was a Command Squad (or perhaps a Veteran Squad).

 

So the Judiciar, while "new" (especially in the armament and name), represents a significant retcon of very old lore that has finally been given official rules.

[Claws and Effect]

Given that a Judiciar also takes a vow of silence, it could also be a role that anyone can take on until they atone for whatever caused them to take the vow.

 

Less support in the lore for that idea though.

[gorg_graggel]

According to the Indomitus novel, the vow of silence is taken so the 'Chaplain in waiting' can be an example by action rather than words. And the vow only applies when he dons his helmet/in battle. Out of battle he seems quite the talkative dude. ;) Edited March 31, 2021 by gorg_graggel

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

However, we can assume that the Master of Sanctity role existed in-universe; it simply wasn't picked out specifically; in the same way that the Chief Victualler rank does not (yet) have rules.

 

 

The master of sanctity for the Black Templars is named in the fluff, and had a few appearances on the fluff. He was called Theoderic.

 

The Master of Sanctity also had rules in the Black Templar Codex, as a rank of chaplain alongside Reclusiarch. (MoS being the senior of the two.) He had one more wound, and one higher leadership.

[BloodyB]

The duties of an executioner existed, but they were divided among other officers.

 

The execution aspect was, and still is in many cases, the job of the 8th Company Captain, the Lord Executioner.

 

Inspirational bladework was the task of the various company and chapter champions.

 

Chaplains generally held disciplinary powers,or at least advised overall chapter command.

 

Additionally, the Reclusiam Command Squad champions were often Chaplains-in-training, meaning they were closest to the Executioner we now have.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Why are we still seeing talk of "Executioner" duties being performed by the Judiciar? AFAIK, the only time it was ever put forward that Judiciars were out lopping off the heads of wayward members of their own chapter was when one person insisted on "reading between the lines" of the Judiciar's job description back before the Indomitus set was even available. Has there ever been anything since to actually support that idea? And if so, why would such a solemn and important duty go to such a low-ranking member of the Reclusiam (since what we DO know about the Judiciar is that he's an initiate looking to prove himself before he can even begin proper Chaplain training).

Edited April 20, 2021 by Lord Nord

[Brother Tyler]

Why are we still seeing talk of "Executioner" duties being performed by the Judiciar?

I suppose it comes from the fact that the weapon wielded by a Judiciar is called an "Executioner" relic blade and the assumption that it's called that for a reason.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

Why are we still seeing talk of "Executioner" duties being performed by the Judiciar?

I suppose it comes from the fact that the weapon wielded by a Judiciar is called an "Executioner" relic blade and the assumption that it's called that for a reason.

 

 

Pretty poor reasoning considering the Primaris already have a main battle tank by the same name. Unless you think it only shoots at heretics from within the chapter's own ranks.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Lord Nord

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm not even sure I've ever heard of a loyal space marine being executed for any reason in 40k?

 

Even in 30k, I recall the Khan killing all those who couldn't renounce their vows to Horus, but little else.

 

It would be a massive waste of resources really, they'd be better off sending them on some sort of suicide mission (s) like the White Scars did with the other marines who backed Horus but repented.

[Darkwrath121]

I'm not even sure I've ever heard of a loyal space marine being executed for any reason in 40k?

 

Even in 30k, I recall the Khan killing all those who couldn't renounce their vows to Horus, but little else.

 

It would be a massive waste of resources really, they'd be better off sending them on some sort of suicide mission (s) like the White Scars did with the other marines who backed Horus but repented.

To be fair, there were Obsequiari discipline officers that functioned as commissars in the legions. Especially common in the VI and XII legions, before their primarchs were found. Not 40k, of course, but it happened.

 

Much less necessary in the 40k era, with changes in marine induction, but various chapters may well have deemed it necessary to execute a few marines over the millennia.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Darkwrath121

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The Legions are one thing, I'm just wondering if anyone knows of a canon source in 40k of a marine being executed?

 

I'm just agreeing with Lord Nord here about the weird focus on the Judiciar being an executioner of friendly forces, as opposed to enemies.

[Brother Tyler]

Back in 1st edition there is mention of the tainted officers of the Grey Slayers Chapter having been slain, though whether that means they were executed or died resisting Lord Inquisitor Thrax isn't clear. At any rate, the [tainted] Chapter Master took his own life. The lore piece is somewhat outdated, however, appearing to have been conceived before the Adeptus Astartes shifted from their early 1st edition form into the warrior knights that we know now (which change took place in late 1st edition and was cemented in 2nd edition).

 

The lore for the Astral Claws [after losing the Badab War] has remained constant from when it was first introduced in 1st edition through to the 4th/5th edition update in the Badab War campaign books from Forge World - all of the Astral Claws Space Marines that survived the war were killed. The lore update from Forge World is explicit about them being put the sword (i.e., executed).

 

After he was accused of violating the Codex Astartes, one of the potential punishments for Uriel Ventris [and Pasanius] was death. The Ultramarines Chapter chose to exile him instead.

 

There is plenty of official precedent for death/execution within the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. Whether or not the [newly-created] Judiciar has a role in such a sentence is unknown, but it's certainly within the realm of the possible.

[BloodyB]

The Legions are one thing, I'm just wondering if anyone knows of a canon source in 40k of a marine being executed?

I'm just agreeing with Lord Nord here about the weird focus on the Judiciar being an executioner of friendly forces, as opposed to enemies.

While not actually carried out, a scout was due to servitorised in the Rynn's World novel. They mentioned that putting other Astartes to death was quite wasteful, but had happened. No examples as far as I remember.

 

However, the Dark Angels definitely do execute space marines. Both the Fallen and those who find out about them without joining the Inner Circle. The Space Wolves also had a lot of executions before reuniting with Russ.

 

Most importantly is the definition of an execution as space marines use the word. The 8th Company Captain is called the Lord Executioner, and is expected to kill the most accomplished enemy combatants and leaders out there. It is a stretch of the term, but I could certainly see a space marine task force being assigned the duty of capturing an enemy officer for interrogation, before executing them in a visible, violent manner. A big, silent warrior-monk with an executioner's blade would do the job.

Edited April 22, 2021 by BloodyB

[Sword Brother Adelard]

So the general connection is that the crime most likely to result in an execution (maybe the only one?) is treachery to the throne. Otherwise, as long as the marine is still loyal, it's a waste of resources.

[techsoldaten]

I realize this is coming from left field, but my take on the Judicar was it's a role dating back to the Heresy. It was abandoned by firstborn marines after the Legions split up into chapters, and only returned when Primaris came back to the Imperium.

 

Judicars only make sense when army leadership is of questionable loyalty. There would have been less demand for such a role after the Heresy as army numbers were smaller and more manageable. While individual chapters could go rogue, there was less of an impact then when an officer lost faith in the Imperium.

 

Something to suggest this might be the case is the Masters of Executions unit for Chaos Space Marines. Something about the two suggests they are counterparts. CSM still hold over certain things from the Heresy era, the MoE might just be a Justicar who's turned his focus back at the Imperium.

Edited April 22, 2021 by techsoldaten

[Brother Tyler]

So the general connection is that the crime most likely to result in an execution (maybe the only one?) is treachery to the throne. Otherwise, as long as the marine is still loyal, it's a waste of resources.

The answer is probably that the intended meaning behind both the reason for and target of execution might vary from Chapter to Chapter. The use of an executioner for internal (i.e., disciplinary) purposes might also be complemented with an external (i.e., bellicose) purpose.

 

Consider how the Successors of the Blood Angels Legion might use executioners (perhaps augmenting Astorath), how the Unforgiven might use them (Fallen, those that learn what they should not), etc. The Blood Angels Legion Successors might have an internal usage beyond disciplinary if those that succumb to the Black Rage might eventually be dealt with by an executioner (if they don't meet their fate upon the battlefield). The Unforgiven might have a more sinister use for their executioners, possibly using their Judiciars in a more clandestine way.

 

Then there are Chapters like the White Scars who might use their Judiciars to augment the Master of the Hunt.

 

Consider how the Exorcists, assuming they still utilize the daemonic possession/exorcism ritual as part of their transformation process, might use Judiciars to deal with those aspirants who fail in that fell ritual.

 

Chapters that utilize sacrifices as part of their warrior cults might incorporate the Judiciars into those rituals, with the Chaplains serving as celebrants while the Judiciars perform the actual slaying. If the old lore about the Imperial Fists holding feasts during which they eat the flesh of their opponents [from the Space Marine novel] retain validity, one could see the Judiciars assisting the Chief Victualler [and presumably the Chaplains] in the execution and preparation of the defeated foes.

 

If there is some sort of "execution" role for the Judiciars (as strongly implied by the name of their weapon), each Chapter's implementation of that role might be subtly different, based on the Chapter's warrior cult.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm pretty sure the blood angels don't execute those in the last throes of the rage as they have a more humane method which was detailed in the original index Astartes. The marine is secured down and goes through the visions until they reach the terminal conclusion and have an aneurysm. The marines are encouraged to describe what they can see, and it's largely as a result of the procedure that they know what the rage entails.

 

I can see your argument in relation to the unforgiven, but the Exorcists example wouldn't really be an execution, but more of a euthanisation. An execution is more aptly reserved for a death as part of some sort of judicial process, which doesn't really neatly apply to most of your examples