Did the Judiciar position exist before Primaris?

[Brother Tyler]

I'm pretty sure the blood angels don't execute those in the last throes of the rage as they have a more humane method which was detailed in the original index Astartes. The marine is secured down and goes through the visions until they reach the terminal conclusion and have an aneurysm. The marines are encouraged to describe what they can see, and it's largely as a result of the procedure that they know what the rage entails.

...As High Chaplain of his order, it is Astorath's sorrowful duty to bring mercy to those lost to the Black Rage. In most cases a battle-brother can still do his duty one final time despite his madness, yet there are those too lost even to seek death in battle. There are also those luckless few that survive their swansong and are left, raving and bestial, in the battle's wake. It is these unfortunates whom Astorath attends, striking their heads from their shoulders with a single blow of his mighty axe...

It is Astorath's calling to seek out those amongst the scions of Sanguinius whose souls have been claimed by the Black Rage, and whose mental degeneration has become so severe that even death in battle is no longer possible. His quarry found, Astorath ends his Lost Brother's life with a single mighty blow to the neck from the ill-omened weapon known only as the Executioner's Axe...

Admittedly, I don't have the 9th edition codex supplement, so if the lore for Astorath has changed [in that he no longer executes those that have succumbed to the Black Rage and who cannot find redemption through death in battle], someone should post the relevant update here. If that lore remains relevant, however, there's certainly room for Judiciars to possibly have some role in this. It seems unrealistic to me to think that Astorath has the time to go to every Blood Angels Legion Successor throughout the galaxy to perform this duty, after all, so some of those Chapters may assign this role to Judiciars or Chaplains.

 

I can see your argument in relation to the unforgiven, but the Exorcists example wouldn't really be an execution, but more of a euthanisation. An execution is more aptly reserved for a death as part of some sort of judicial process, which doesn't really neatly apply to most of your examples

Whether you call it "execution" or "euthanasia" is simply a matter of semantics. The point is that the Judiciar, if their role within the Exorcists Chapter includes some form of execution, might be involved in the process of killing those that have somehow failed in the daemonic possession/exorcism ritual.

 

And those were simply examples of what is within the realm of the possible. With about a thousand Chapters, there are about a thousand different ways in which Judiciars might be involved in some form of execution [even if only in some Chapters].

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Ah, the semantics argument. The classic way to kill an argument without making a valid counterpoint, by treating the difference between two ideas as trivial. The argument implies that ideas and arguments can be separated from the words and phrases used to encode those ideas. The irony, of course, is that the words and phrases we use are the ideas. There is no way to communicate a complex argument or message without language.*
 

To my mind the difference between something being an Execution and a Euthanisation does matter in the context of deciding what a chapter Executioner may or may not do as part of some quasi-judicial role. If something is not an 'execution' then it is arguably not the job of the Executioner.

 

So yes, in this case, the 'semantics' do matter to my question of whether Execution is a routinely used punishment for space marines. An execution, in the sense of someone being purposefully killed is typically a judicial function, which would require some sort of crime to be committed.

 

In the Exorcists example, it is eminently possible that killing off failed aspirants could be the job for an Apothecary for instance, the aspirants haven't done anything wrong, in terms of requiring censure, they just cannot be allowed to live, so they may just be euthanised, converted into a servitor, or if the reaction was particularly dangerous, killed by their brothers in an act of necessary preservation. Yes, that could be a task for a Judiciar, but it's not an execution.

 

 

You particularly have to see this point in the context that Lord Nord was referring to above, where for some inexplicable reason, people thought the Judiciar's job was to execute space marines within their own chapter, (not helped by things like that fake data sheet which suggested that he was designed to kill first born marines.)

So far, Lord Nord's point seems to remain largely valid. There don't appear to be many reasons why an Executioner role would be required to kill space marines within their own chapter as an act of censure, bar outright treachery, which would be vanishingly rare.

 

Even with regard to the Unforgiven, I'm not sure you've actually given any examples of Marines being executed for accidentally learning of the Fallen, I would imagine that it would be easier just to induct them into the inner circle rather than kill a perfectly usable space marine. 

Thank you for the Blood Angels lore update, I haven't kept at all up to date with the Blood Angels lore since 3rd edition, when Astorath didn't exist, and that was not the canonical way that sufferers from the Rage far from battle were apparently dealt with. Back then, it was apparently a much more 'medical' process than what is contained in the lore that followed. (And people say 40k is getting less grimdark!)

Index Astartes: Blood Angels (White Dwarf 261 (UK))

"Chaplain Lestrallio, a great and tragic martyr of the Blood Angels, instigated a method that enabled those unfortunate few who fell into the Rage when the Chapter was in deep space to be of service nonetheless. The Lestrallio Procedure involves giving oneself to the Sanguinary Priests when all attempts at stemming the Black Rage have been unsuccessful, and there are no enemies for the victim to slaughter in the throes of a heroic death. the volunteer is restrained, shackled in adamantium often at the cost of many Blood-Servitors, and brought into the bowels of the craft. There in the darkness of the ship's Apothecarion, he is encouraged to talk of what he sees around him, his visions echoing around those witnessed by Sanguinius within the unholy depths of Horus' battle barge. ... Chaplain Lestrallio died of massive psychological trauma. this is a regrettable side effect of the Lestrallio procedure, but one deemed fitting by many among the Blood Angels"

 

This is what I was referring to above, but again, Astorath seems to be carrying out a mercy killing, despite the nomenclature of the axe in question, not punishing a marine for a crime. 


*Not my own words, but taken from here: https://people.howstuffworks.com/semantics.htm 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Galron]

Seems like common sense-wise a chaplain having an apprentice would likely be a normal things. Obviously it wasn't a rules formal thing with a name to go with it until the Indominatus. Likely each chapter would have their own name for them much like many chapters have different names for many of their ranks and positions. Someone has to be training for the job given the mortality rate of loyalist space marines.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Are we even certain that the Judicar punishes other marines or uses the executioner sword thusly even? I could see the chaplain apprentice, still a centuries old veteran by mortal standards, lending their expertise in routing out heresy within the ranks of other mortal factions in the pan orginzational armies under the Indomitus crusade.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't think we have anything to suggest that much. I think, so far, the only references we have to them have been the 9th Codex, the Indomitus booklet and the Indomitus novel. Edited April 23, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Brother Tyler]

...and the Warhammer Community articles.

 

So far, my interpretation of the Judiciar's role from the various sources (minus the Indomitus booklet and novel) is that his executioner role is externally focused - punishing the enemies of the Imperium.

 

The most explicit statement that he has an executioner role is from this article which says:

 

Ed: The Judiciar is essentially a holy executioner. He has deliberately removed his right shoulder pad and taken off his surcoat on that side to leave his sword arm free to deliver a decapitating strike. The hourglass – the tempormortis – is a traditional symbol of death. It’s basically saying ‘your time is up’ to his enemies. The mask over his mouth and nose reinforces the idea that this Chaplain preaches his beliefs with actions rather than words.

Beyond that, some hobbyists appear to speculate that the Judiciar might [additionally?] have an internal [to the Chapter] executioner role, so I've explored possible options for how that role might be implemented (under the premise that there are numerous examples where roles have different implementations in different Chapters, so that might hold true for the Judiciar, too). At this point, however, there is no explicit canon evidence for an internal "executioner" role for the Judiciar.

[Gederas]

Even with regard to the Unforgiven, I'm not sure you've actually given any examples of Marines being executed for accidentally learning of the Fallen, I would imagine that it would be easier just to induct them into the inner circle rather than kill a perfectly usable space marine.

In general, the unforgiven don't execute their own battle brothers over the Fallen. Finding out too much while being an Unforgiven is usually a fast track to the Inner Circle/Deathwing (coming into DIRECT contact and you're not a Ravenwing member? Congratulations, let's give you some tests and if you pass, you get to put on this snazzy Terminator armour)

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

That's kind of what I figured.

 

"Brother Interrogator Chaplain, who was that brother in black armour and Dark Angel iconography?"

 

"Err, watch these helpful videos."

[Brother Tyler]

 

Even with regard to the Unforgiven, I'm not sure you've actually given any examples of Marines being executed for accidentally learning of the Fallen, I would imagine that it would be easier just to induct them into the inner circle rather than kill a perfectly usable space marine.

In general, the unforgiven don't execute their own battle brothers over the Fallen. Finding out too much while being an Unforgiven is usually a fast track to the Inner Circle/Deathwing (coming into DIRECT contact and you're not a Ravenwing member? Congratulations, let's give you some tests and if you pass, you get to put on this snazzy Terminator armour)

 

This is patently incorrect. There have been numerous instances in official lore where it is at the very least heavily implied that members of the Dark Angels/Unforgiven are executed over the secret of the Fallen, most cases being that the increasing secrets are more than they can handle (i.e., their continued loyalty to the Chapter comes into question).

 

It is essential that only those who have proven their absolute loyalty to the Chapter time and again are allowed to progress. Silent and hooded brothers lead any aspirants before the assembled Inner Circle for the great rituals of judgement, and those chosen are either elevated to the Deathwing, or disappear forever.

Only those who demonstrate their total devotion to the Chapter can join the Inner Circle, and even then they must pass numerous, dangerous tests to prove their worth. Those who fail these trials vanish without a word, never to be seen again.

Not all Scouts will pass the exacting tests they must undergo at each stage of their development. Those who fail are removed to become Chapter Thralls or lobotomised Servitors - others are simply never seen again...

Moreover, ascension within the specialist ranks has its own trials and, for those found unworthy, penalties:

 

...The process by which a Chaplain is elevated to the rank of Interrogator[-Chaplain] is arcane and convoluted. Throughout his tenure as Chaplain, the individual is scrutinised from afar by the Masters, for his duties may at times take him dangerously close to knowledge of the Fall of Caliban. Should the Chaplain fathom the truth unaided, he will be brought before the Inner Circle and judged. If found worthy, he will be admitted to the Inner Circle and will learn the full truth. If judged unworthy, or simply unready, he may be mind-scrubbed, or worse.

Then, too, there are those neophytes [to the Chapter] that are killed for various reasons, among which are those with psyker potential:

 

Most neophytes who are suspected of being a psyker by the repeated screenings are given their last rites and slain outright. Some few are spared...

From those, it's clear that learning the secrets of the Fallen isn't just a matter of time. If someone were to learn those secrets before being cleared, the best they can hope for is that the rituals of great judgement are administered and their absolute loyalty to the Chapter is confirmed and they are allowed to enter the Deathwing. If they are found wanting, there are other fates that await them, and death/execution is certainly within the realm of the possible. If Chaplains are subjected to trials upon learning about the Fallen on their own, normal battle-brothers would at the very least be subject to similar consequences (and more likely even more stringent trials, depending upon their current level of progression within the Chapter).

 

In addition, there are hints that the Dark Angels/Unforgiven may kill outsiders that learn of the Fallen. That is the whole crux of the conspiracy theory about the Ophidium Gulf, after all - that the Dark Angels may have killed the members of the Black Templars Crusade after that Crusade captured one of the Fallen. This isn't confirmed, of course, and it may be that the Ophidium Gulf is simply lost and incommunicado. Ever since 2nd edition, however, it has been clear that the Dark Angels [and other Unforgiven Chapters] won't countenance outsiders learning about the Fallen/Fall of Caliban, though the lengths to which they'll go to cover these secrets up (when learned by outsiders) aren't explicitly stated. Killing such unfortunates is entirely within the realm of the possible (though this would probably be considered an external form of execution rather than internal discipline).

 

Whether or not the Judiciars have any role in such potential executions is unknown. Even if they have an internal execution role, they are not, by progression, privy to the secrets of the Fall of Caliban and the Hunt for the Fallen, so they might not be involved in executions of those who have reached those levels (or they may do so under some pretense). Codex Supplement: Dark Angels doesn't tell us that the progression of the Judiciars within the Unforgiven Chapters is different from their counterparts within other Chapters, so we can't assume that the Judiciars know more than the Chaplains, who are later in their progression. Each of the situations presented above allows for alternate executioners, but since each pre-dates the introduction of the Judiciar, retconning the Judiciar into any of them (at the very least those that don't necessarily involve knowledge of the Fallen/Fall of Caliban) is a simple matter. It's not for us to say what is/isn't within his remit, though we are free to speculate on our own interpretations/opinions.

 

And all of this is just within the Dark Angels/Unforgiven Chapters. While these Chapters explicitly have room for internal executions, other Chapters similarly have their own warrior cults and potential reasons for internal executions. The Judiciar, as an explicitly stated executioner, may have a role in performing these executions (at least in some Chapters). Without explicit information from GW, however, we are left to speculate upon the overall issue without the ability to draw a firm conclusion (not with any authority, at least).

[Claws and Effect]

The Legions are one thing, I'm just wondering if anyone knows of a canon source in 40k of a marine being executed?

 

Yes.

 

Read Silent Hunters, the new Carcharodons novel.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

The Legions are one thing, I'm just wondering if anyone knows of a canon source in 40k of a marine being executed?

 

Yes.

 

Read Silent Hunters, the new Carcharodons novel.

What did he do?

[Brother Tyler]

Presumably there is an execution of an Adeptus Astartes [by Adeptus Astartes]. Telling what happens in the book, however, would be a spoiler. This isn't an old book whose happenings have made it into the common knowledge, after all - it's a brand new book. We don't want to be giving things away.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

So put it in a Spoiler code?

 

And yes, I get there's an execution, I'm asking what the marine did to deserve execution.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Brother Tyler]

He kept repeating questions that no one wanted to answer.





 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

There's no need to be a prat about it.

 

Not very B&C from the guy who runs it.

 

As you are often at pains to point out:

 

"No disrespectful behavior (trolling, flaming, derogatory terms)

 

Trolling is being a jerk on the internet simply because you can. This is typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on someone else, because it's the internet and, hey, you can (because they can't punch you in the face through the computer, even if you deserve it)."

 

Sort yourself out.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Brother Tyler]

You are being hypersensitive to what was a friendly jest.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I didn't think so, it singles me out for ridicule by talking about me as if I'm not here, that isn't in anyway a 'friendly' jest.

 

Your last post before that was also unnecessarily patronising.

 

Your new post is just classic deflection. Perhaps an apology for something which clearly landed badly would have been a better approach?

 

But who am I to question the management?

[Ioldanach]

I didn't think so, it singles me out for ridicule by talking about me as if I'm not here, that isn't in anyway a 'friendly' jest.

 

Your last post before that was also unnecessarily patronising.

 

Your new post is just classic deflection. Perhaps an apology for something which clearly landed badly would have been a better approach?

 

But who am I to question the management?

 

No, I don't think any of that is correct. It was pretty clear to me when I first saw it that it was a joke - the kind of joke that friends make with each other. I chuckled lightly over it and didn't think anything of it (and I didn't in any way think less of you as a result of the joke). I agree that you're being way too sensitive and taking everything the wrong way. Regardless, I suggest taking it to PM instead of having a public spat about it. This public spectacle is poor form and I think that you're embarrassing yourself and creating unnecessary friction over what is essentially nothing.

 

Getting back to the topic, just to be sure I'm understanding correctly:

• The judiciar didn't exist in the real world until after the Primaris were introduced.
• There was lore for apprentice chaplains way back in the day, but they never had rules and weren't presented as anything like the judiciar.
• The lack of a firstborn version of the judiciar might be inferred as meaning that the judiciar isn't a full retcon but is instead part of the lore progression (and this is open to debate).
• The Legiones Astartes had an officer role known as Judiciars and they were somewhat different from the modern judiciars.
• The Adeptus Astartes do have executions of individual Space Marines, probably for the most serious of offenses where an ostracism/penitent mission won't suffice.
• Despite that, we don't even know if the judiciar has an executioner role (in terms of punishing transgressing members of the chapter).

Did I miss anything or get anything incorrect?

 

Regardless of all of this, I kind of like the concept. I would have executed it a bit differently, having the judiciar serve as a sort of bodyguard to the chaplain, either alone or as part of a squad (the judiciar being the leader model in that squad). I would definitely love to see a firstborn version, but I don't see GW giving that to us with their current methods requiring models. It would be a great set of homebrew rules, though.