1 x 10 or 2 x 5 - How can SM Ld Tests Be Better?

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello all.

 

So...

 

1 x 10 or 2 x 5 - How can SM Ld Tests Be Better?

 

I'd say a flat -2 to all Ld tests and keep the reroll for SM's might help the problem I have with running the old style 1 x 10 or even 1 x 8 SM's per squad, or pack in my army.

The issue with 8th and 9th appears to be that Morale saves force seriously expensive models to just flat out flee.

I guess a baked into the SM Chapter Tactics or at least SOMEthing for some idea of why SM's are so tough to fix the expensive loss of models after heavy casualties in any turn is a massive need.

 

It used to be 10 SM's were seriously resilient and didn't just have 2 or 3 flee, or the last 2 or 3 peel off and go to the hills.

Certainly doesn't feel right playing that way on table top.

 

Any other or new ideas?

Constructive criticism and interesting ideas and proposals welcome.

[TheNewman]

There's the Stoic successor chapter trait that just auto-passes Attrition roles.

 

My experience is obviously not a representative sample but I've never seen Marines as particularly resilient. Maybe right after (iirc) 4th dropped and Ap switched from reducing your save like it does now to either denying your save altogether or doing nothing and people hadn't adjusted yet, but it didn't take long to start seeing nothing but Ap2 or Ap- weapons and Marines died like flies again.

Edited March 31, 2021 by TheNewman

[Dracos]

Pretty sure they are talking resilient in the morale phase. Which they’ve been nigh unbreakable in the past.

 

Now we’re in the snowflake edition where everyone gets to have all the same toys but skinned differently.

[Tokugawa]

6+ models unit have huge disadvantage against blast weapons now. Unless the unit really need big number to be functional(usually aggressive melee units, e.g. Vanguard vets,Terminators), 5men is always better.

[phoenix01]

Combat squad?

[Brother Kraskor]

Combat squad?

 

Unless you're hurting for slots this just means one half of the squad will have lower Ld.

[Karack Blackstone]

What ideas do SM players have to FIX the lack of 10 man's being viable these days?

 

Mine? How many points are baked into SM's that aren't getting returned?

 

I hope it's enough that a -2 to Morale saves and a full reroll with full -2 on said reroll might be enough.

[chapter master 454]

I mean, really the issue of morale is one but the other really is endemic within how they are built.

 

I mean, across 10 marines you can have ether 3 singleton options or 4 doubled up options (or some level of mix). The full 10 man takes a sergeant load-out, a special weapon and a heavy weapon which I mean is nice for flex when doing say crusade or something but in standard 40k where logistics and long standing consequences for taking a unit don't exist after turn 5 it isn't a problem.

 

Thus for space marines, if we want or need heavy weapons we don't have a shortage anywhere for that. Devastators are just grade A heavy weapon spam platforms with good return for bang. Not the more durable, but they need answered or they will melt their targets of choice with whatever they bring. Tanks also give a variety of options for this. What marines hurt for is special weapons. Only real options are sternguard and company veterans, neither are quite like devastators and their cheap and cheerful approach (and also being in the elites slot doesn't help).

 

However that is what I would say causes the 2x5 option to appear more than morale with morale just being a straw that breaks the camels back. I have found 10 man intercessors are pretty good but even then they suffered before 9th edition because of how their grenade launcher worked thus pushing the optimal choice of 2x5 again (thus allowing you you to fire 2 grenades per "squad" instead of 1). To be honest, marines aren't ever really rewarded for large squads and I feel like this is an intended design choice, we aren't meant to horde up like Tyranids or Orks who see returns for large units (ether in their morale being basically non-issue or gaining attack buffs) where for marines large squads really only show-up when making use of stratagems. I honestly don't think morale is the backbreaking by itself nor would it ever be normally, it is just the straw on top of many other heavier weights that have already broken the back as it is.

 

I mean, Tacticals are the biggest offenders. Would you rather have 4 special weapons of your choice per 10 marines or 2 specials and 1 heavy? Heck, if you wanted heavy on them then you would STILL want to take 2x5 because then you can have 2 heavies for 10 marines instead of 1.

 

And Combat Squads are just...hilariously ineffective as a rule. If it was possible mid-match with even a depleted squad (down to maybe a limit of 4?) then it would be far better because then it would have use for those last ditch grabs for objectives. But if you have to do it at the start of the match then why not just build that into the list from the beginning? I mean...you can in a way "re-combine" them by having them stay together, even mid match but you can't split them apart mid-match if they start together.