What's wrong with Supplement: Deathwatch?

[thinkerofuselessthings]

Hi Battle Brothers,

 

now the Deathwatch supplement has been out for about 6 months. Each of us had the opportunity to study and use it. There have been numerous events (despite the health emergency) that have shown the effectiveness of our codex even in the competitive arena.

Unfortunately the results are not comforting. I am not a gamer who prefers the tournament environment, but a player who loves a game that is as open and balanced as possible.

 

Recently a meta analysis by the Goonhammer guys (very great) showed sub-optimal results (and by optimal I mean sufficient) for the Deathwatch that is relegated to tier 4 of the competitive meta.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-competitive-tier-list-april-2021/#Deathwatch

 

My experience with the new supplement is based on around 25-30 matches (against DA, IF, Orks, Harly, Eldar). I have experimented with many units and combinations and try to get the most from the resources of the supplement. I admit that being able to choose from the marine codex is splendid, it allows you a huge range of options that we weren't used to. But in trying to play Deathwatch I found that many of the choices I had access to were often discarded. This is because in fact Deathwatch is an army that is mainly based on infantry. I also consider our army as a firearm, and on this I will base myself to discuss the points that do not convince me.

 

1 - What's working in Supplement: DW

• - Relics: We have an exceptional choice of relics, far superior to many other supplements. Dominus Aegis and Beacon Angelis are extremely competitive (the former allows to increase the durability of models such as the Dreadnoughts). Others like Tome of Ectoclades and Vorkan Pattern auspicator are great choices.
• - Warlord traits: we have a great selection, very useful and versatile. They actually represent how DW should be as they allow for incredible versatility.
• - Psychics: our discipline is very strong, here too continues the ubiquitous theme of the DW which is versatility. some powers are extremely efficient, which is why we always find points for a librarian.
• - Stratagems (30%): some are extremely strong, such as the Teleportarium which allows incredible versatility of play and deployment, as well as varied tactics.

 

2 - What's not wotking in Supplument: DW

• - Kill team: they should be the center of our army, the true diversity and strength of the army. In my opinion, the advent of the new supplement has reduced its efficiency. Apart from making some very strong units troops (eradicators, outriders, aggressors, eliminators, inceptors) and allowing them to deploy larger units than the usual limits (outriders, eliminators) there are actually no advantages in forming a kill team. In the old codex, adding a member to the core troop (Intercessor, Veterans) allowed you to unlock abilities that are always active. Now those skills have been rewritten and turned into ruses. The ballast of a troop unit is not paid off for this, the investment in terms of CP is too much for what you actually get.
• - Special Issue Ammunitions (SIA): the most important rule of our troops has been greatly changed in the transition to the supplement. Most likely in an attempt to balance the Primaris it was decided to reduce access, allowing only with an expensive and inefficient ploy to use the SIAs. This has drastically reduced the effectiveness of many units, making them just normal marines, and completely taking away the iconic DW narrative.
• - Stratagems (70%): many don't work. In any codex or supplement there are crap tricks, unfortunately for the DW most of it is of little use. Even Xeno-specific ploys fail to balance the CP investment. Not to mention the stratagem that guarantees SIAs to an infantry unit, which is in fact impractical (if not with an Intercessor on stalker unit).
• - Chapter Tactics and Superdoctrine: not always the best among those available, however, it has its utility. Unfortunately, the superdoctrine of our codex does not confer bonuses that are able to confer an important advantage in moments of the game as for example happens with the DA or BA (the DA have 3 superdoctrines). It is certainly useful to choose the sequence of the Doctrines, but not so effective for an already nerfed codex.
• Secondary Objective: really bad choice. I tried every single one and I was never able to gain maximum from them. 

 

Overall

• - We lacks rough power as shooting army. 
• - most uniqueness of our Supplement are ineffective. Kill Tems need a rework.
• - Super Doctrine must change, you need a bonus that's able to balance the Chapter tactic.
• - Primaris need SIA. Let them cost more, ore give SIA trough Super Doctrine (in Tactical Doctrine you are able to use SIA with all Bolter Weapons).
• - Remove stratagems that substitute Kill Team ability to add new one. 

 

I'm happy with Deathwatch, but I prefer to be able to fight back against every army. In the last 3 games agains DA I wasn't able to do anything. It is really depressing. 

 

What's your feedback? Am I the only one to have this issues?

 

 

[RandyB]

It looks like kill teams have been "demoted" from decisive battlefield units to skirmish units ala Kill Team. Whereas Deathwatch is now expected to field more conventional units on larger battlefields.

[GrinNfool]

Eh while I don't think DW are strong, I also don't think they are weak just by virtue of being marines.  I have had pretty positive success with them personally, though admittedly I haven't been playing any high level tournament armies with them.  I have beat what I would expect to beat, nids, tau, chaos, but I have also convincingly taken out some armies that aren't considered bad, ravenwing, DA, DG, Salamanders, and demons.  I have had success with kill teams, but I build them very much to survive and punch, while being able to take make some ok shooting.  They are not an easy army to use, and most people prefer marines that are point click, DW aren't that.  If you are going to build DW like normal marine armies to play them then you really are just playing inferior marines, because there is very little deathwatch can do better than another chapter using normal stuff.  While killteams might not be amazing, you can at least build to a distinct playstyle, as opposed to just playing worse SM codex.

 

While I agree it would be nice to have SIA more prolific in DW, I also don't want it on everything, I don't want the entire DW gameplan to be SB/SS, like people gravitated towards before.

I do agree DW need a super doctrine bonus round, picking your round is nice, so it doesn't need to be massive, but we should probably have some sort of bonus to tactical, like our chosen target battle field roll units get to reroll hits of 1.

 

Some of our secondary choices are ok some are bad, par for the course in codexes, we at least also can choose the normal marine ones too.

 

I think this is all going to be just wishlisting though, I don't see GW really doing anything for us til 10th, or a surprise inclusion in a campaign book.  They are so far behind with just codex releases DW won't be addressed, and with our units being in the marine codex, I wouldn't expect anything out of a chapter approved type book either.  I'm sure it isn't what you want to hear, but its almost certainly how it is.  You can win with DW, I don't have any matchups I look at and say I can't beat that.  Now high level competitive could be another story, but most of us don't deal with that on a regular basis.  I am pretty sure I could go to a tourney and break even at least though with how they have been feeling in my matches.

[techsoldaten]

First things first: am new to DW, building an army currently, have not played a game of 9th.

 

Have had conversations about DW, they tend to follow logic along several lines:

 

1) They truly have a Tier 4 Codex, 9th edition will be hard.

 

2) Players have yet to adapt to the potential of the 9th edition Codex. Lists still look like they were made for 8th edition.

 

3) You can't really buy all the models for an Indomitor Kill Team. Hard to judge an army when you can't field it's most powerful units.

 

4) The Codex is massively underrated. The army is underrepresented in tournaments and eventually we'll break through to the top 3.

 

For my part, I'm somewhere between 2 and 3. I don't think it's hopeless nor do I think there's an ultra-competitive list waiting to be discovered. They can do well in friendly games and probably win a few tournaments.

 

Traditionally, I play Chaos (CSM and Daemons.) These armies are starved for shooting. The big competitive CSM list right now is a Possessed Bomb, the big competitive Daemon list is Slaanesh Daemons with triple Keeper of Secrets. They're pure melee, and part of why they work is their ability to close ground fast.

 

The points efficiency of 5 Heavy Intercessors compared to 3 Obliterators heavily favors DW. And they have range, some of their guns shoot almost as far as a lascannon. 5 Vets with Bolter / SS + 5 Vets with Frag Cannons compared to Obliterators is even better, in most match ups. Plus they can take Drop Pods - with the doors down, charges get disrupted without penalty to shooting. Properly positioned, 2 Drop Pods could shut down a Slaanesh army for a turn in a game that goes 5 turns (which is a big deal, that eliminates up to 20% of their offensive output.)

 

So I see how to field an infantry-heavy force that's going to outgun a strong Chaos army. What I don't see is people sharing DW lists with 10 SIA Bolters, 10 Frag Cannons and 10 - 20 Heavy Intercessors. Those units would be incredibly efficient compared to the best CSM lists and there's plenty of others to fill out an army.

 

So something is off. My sense is either people are stuck on their 8th edition lists or they're not min / maxing against other Codexes.

[techsoldaten]

Not to belabor the point from my previous post, but look at 40kstats. 

 

Deathwatch currently have ~80 recorded games, accounting for less than 1% of competitive outcomes. They have won 41% of their 9th edition games, which puts them near the bottom of the rankings.

 

Not sure it's not wise to draw conclusions from such a small sample size. Two players with weak lists could account for most of the W / L difference.

 

Another question that came to mind: are people really optimizing their DW lists right now? Asking because I've had to buy a lot of bits for my army and I've noticed how hard it is to get some things (frag cannons, DW heavy bolters, etc.) My understanding (please correct me if I'm off) is these options were undesirable in 8th. Having a hard time finding more than shoulderpads on bitz sites.

[GrinNfool]

Not to belabor the point from my previous post, but look at 40kstats. 

 

Deathwatch currently have ~80 recorded games, accounting for less than 1% of competitive outcomes. They have won 41% of their 9th edition games, which puts them near the bottom of the rankings.

 

Not sure it's not wise to draw conclusions from such a small sample size. Two players with weak lists could account for most of the W / L difference.

 

Another question that came to mind: are people really optimizing their DW lists right now? Asking because I've had to buy a lot of bits for my army and I've noticed how hard it is to get some things (frag cannons, DW heavy bolters, etc.) My understanding (please correct me if I'm off) is these options were undesirable in 8th. Having a hard time finding more than shoulderpads on bitz sites.

I don't think frags are popular now either, honestly they were much better in 8th, losing auto hit and going from 2d6 to 2d3 is a pretty heavy nerf, ya their cost went down but even their slug is worse as it used to be s9 at closer ranges making it a usable AV weapon, as opposed to basically an AC.  Even overcosted in 8th I would still run a frag sometimes just because they would do some crazy things for you sometimes.  Infernus would be the current hotness if you were wanting a heavy weapon, as heavy bolters are good, and for 5 points more why not get a hvy flamer strapped to it?  Infernus used to be kinda bad, so those aren't things people have many of, but then I wouldn't run many either, 2-4 is about the most I would expect any DW army to ever run.  I wouldn't touch the frag cannon at the moment, and I have 4 modeled.  Currently the best options on old school marines are boltgun/SS  Combiflamer/SS an infernus, or boltgun chainsword to keep them cheap and they sort of become better barebones intercessors, assuming you aren't loading the squad for some combat, in which case buying a black shield and/or sgt some combat gear would be good.

Edited April 6, 2021 by GrinNfool

[techsoldaten]

 

I don't think frags are popular now either, honestly they were much better in 8th, losing auto hit and going from 2d6 to 2d3 is a pretty heavy nerf, ya their cost went down but even their slug is worse as it used to be s9 at closer ranges making it a usable AV weapon, as opposed to basically an AC.  Even overcosted in 8th I would still run a frag sometimes just because they would do some crazy things for you sometimes.  Infernus would be the current hotness if you were wanting a heavy weapon, as heavy bolters are good, and for 5 points more why not get a hvy flamer strapped to it?  Infernus used to be kinda bad, so those aren't things people have many of, but then I wouldn't run many either, 2-4 is about the most I would expect any DW army to ever run.  I wouldn't touch the frag cannon at the moment, and I have 4 modeled.  Currently the best options on old school marines are boltgun/SS  Combiflamer/SS an infernus, or boltgun chainsword to keep them cheap and they sort of become better barebones intercessors, assuming you aren't loading the squad for some combat, in which case buying a black shield and/or sgt some combat gear would be good.

 

Appreciate the perspective.

 

'Popular' is different from 'efficient.' Despite how much more wonderful frag cannons may have been in the past, a 2d3 S6 assault weapon for 10 points is not bad compared with other guns. I could see a case for spamming them.

 

I don't really want to debate the ideal load out for a Kill Team - interesting topic, we could create a separate thread to discuss. The reason I brought it up was because I'm skeptical we've really seen a fully optimized DW list in a tournament setting. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by techsoldaten

[thinkerofuselessthings]

Unexpected the same guys from Goonhammer put out today a review about tier 4 army.

Deathwatch is covered here:

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-editorial-tier-4-blues-pt-1/

 

A lot of what has been discussed in our thread is also reported in their analysis. Interesting.

 

thank you all for your insight, I have to admit that I'm a bit more skeptical about the viability of our supplement. Of course I won't give up and probably I'll try to be as shooty as possibile.

 

I'm planning to go all out with gravis armour, to prove that thougher is the key.

 

however I'm a bit more concerned about secondary objective. In your games what has proven to be effective with Deathwatch?

[techsoldaten]

This thread from Reddit was quoted in the Goonhammer article.
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/deathwatch40k/comments/m6fxsn/deathwatch_are_top_tier_marines_if_you_are/
 
Author describes what he considers the best units and shares the following list.
 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Deathwatch) [104 PL, 1,998pts, 7CP] ++

Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Stratagems +

Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics

No Force Org Slot +

Apothecary [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Tome of Ectoclades

Company Veterans [3 PL, 48pts] . Company Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield . Company Veteran Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield

HQ +

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 110pts, -1CP]: 3. Nowhere to Hide (Aura), Astartes Chainsword, Dominus Aegis, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

Librarian [6 PL, 115pts]: 1. Premorphic Resonance, 2. Fortified With Contempt, 5. Mantle of Shadow, Boltgun, Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Force sword

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts, -1CP]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 3. Exhortation of Rage, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Stratagem: A Vigil Unmatched, The Beacon Angelis, Warlord, Wise Orator . 2. Paragon of their Chapter: Ultramarines: Adept of the Codex

Troops +

Fortis Kill Team [15 PL, 320pts] . Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Bolt rifle . 5x Intercessor w/ Auto Bolt Rifle: 5x Auto Bolt Rifle, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades . 4x Outrider: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Twin Bolt rifle

Fortis Kill Team [17 PL, 285pts]: Aquila . 5x Hellblaster w/ Assault plasma incinerator: 5x Assault Plasma Incinerator, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Auto Bolt Rifle . Intercessor w/ Astartes Grenade Launcher: Astartes grenade launcher, Auto Bolt Rifle . 3x Intercessor w/ Auto Bolt Rifle: 3x Auto Bolt Rifle, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

Indomitor Kill Team [20 PL, 390pts]: Dominatus . 3x Aggressor w/ Flamestorm Gauntlets: 6x Flamestorm Gauntlets . Heavy Intercessor Sergeant: Hellstorm Bolt Rifle . 4x Heavy Intercessor w/ Hellstorm Bolt Rifle: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hellstorm Bolt Rifle . 2x Inceptor w/ Plasma Exterminators: 2x 2x Plasma Exterminators

Elites +

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Servitors [2 PL, 30pts]: 4x Servo-arm

Vanguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 285pts]: Jump Pack . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy thunder hammer

++ Total: [104 PL, 7CP, 1,998pts] ++

 

I'm a little skeptical of his claim that DW can be Tier 1 with the right units. For HQs, he's taking a Captain on a Bike, a Chaplain on a Bike, a Librarian, and an Apothecary. He's saying the right combination of WLTs / Relics / Stratagems / Secondaries increase the resilience of units to the point where they're very hard to remove. The main units he highlights are:

 

- Fortis KT: 6x intercessors with ABR + 4x outriders

 

- Indomitor KT w/ Dominatus specialization: 5x Heavy Intercessors w/ hellstorm bolt rifles + 3x aggressors w/ flame storm gauntlets + 2x plasma inceptors

 

- Fortis KT w/ Aquila specialization: 5x intercessors w/ auto bolt rifles + 5x hellblasters w/ assault plasma incinerators

 

- Vanguard Vets: Sergeant w/ heavy thunder hammer, 9x storm shields, 8x lightning claws and 1x chainsword

 

While I can see these guys getting some work done, I get the sense he's playing to the missions. This quote from the article seems important.

 

 

Remember, the idea is that you start with 15 secondary points and it’s your opponents job to catch up. Against armies like DG, having a crazy gunline and waiting for enemies to come to you or lose 5 points a turn from the long vigil is just debilitating. Apothecary will top up half the losses from any chaff shooting you take.

 

 

 

 

 

[thinkerofuselessthings]

thank you, I missed that one.

 

It's a great guide for DW, but I'm a bit concerned about Long Vigil Obj. In this environment of armies (DA, DE, BA) it is really difficult that no enemy unit will be at 6 from our deployment zone in the Command Phase. I agree that is a good decoy to induce enemy to advance closer but probably won't be as easy as the guide reported.

 

What is the Secondary Obj you usually take with DW?

[techsoldaten]

thank you, I missed that one.

 

It's a great guide for DW, but I'm a bit concerned about Long Vigil Obj. In this environment of armies (DA, DE, BA) it is really difficult that no enemy unit will be at 6 from our deployment zone in the Command Phase. I agree that is a good decoy to induce enemy to advance closer but probably won't be as easy as the guide reported.

 

What is the Secondary Obj you usually take with DW?

 

I still haven't played a game of 9th, so I can't tell you what secondaries I would normally take.

 

The author of the Reddit post mentions While We Stand We Fight as the most important one. He also mentions Domination, Raise the Banners High, and The Long Vigil as being good.

[Charlo]

On the subject of super doctrine and Primaris not gaining SIA...

 

I almost wonder if there is a "two birds with one stone" application here?

 

What about if, in tactical doctrine, SIA is unlocked for the army. This would represent its scarcity and also tie in well to the Tac Doc being "get in close with bolters".

 

Thoughts?

[thinkerofuselessthings]

On the subject of super doctrine and Primaris not gaining SIA...

 

I almost wonder if there is a "two birds with one stone" application here?

 

What about if, in tactical doctrine, SIA is unlocked for the army. This would represent its scarcity and also tie in well to the Tac Doc being "get in close with bolters".

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I totally agree, I suggested this too in the original post.

 

I would be limited, powerful enough to let some unit work greatly and will be able to balance the mediocre chapter tactics.

 

Units like aggressor, Bolter inceptor, Intercessor with assault weapons could be very strong and useful but for a limited amount of time. 

 

Moreover the stratagem that let a unit be in a different Doctrine will be a better version of SIA current stratagem.

 

Unfortunately this is a wishlinting...We need to play with our current supplement.

Edited April 11, 2021 by thinkerofuselessthings

[Azaiel]

Some caveats before I give my opinion:

I haven't played a game yet with the new codex supplement so take that in mind.

I´m not a competitive gamer, I play for fun with friends.

My army is 100% firstborn, no primaris. (I have way to many firstborn unpainted, don't need to add more to the pile!)

 

The biggest takeaway I got from reading the codex and the discussions of making lists is that the army doesn't seem fun to play for me.

Unless you like an uphill battle, book keeping and struggle more so than playing any other form of Space marines. Or you really like re-rolls, like really like re-rolls, because that is basically our chapter mega super tactic. I had enough of this in 8th Ed.

 

You can call me a fool for picking this army. I came back in the hobby just before 8th Ed was released, hadn't played since 3rd Ed before and didnt know. I love my Men in black from a modeling/painting perspective, they are the coolest marines of the coolest army in 40K in my opinion.

 

For me the codex is a convoluted mess with some odd restrictions. Why cant the black shield replace a veteran, why cant we have attack bikes squadrons, why cant Cap on bike have a xenophase blade etc etc...

 

There are some cool relics and stratagems, some of them even fluffy, like the paragon of the chapter. But the restriction against SIA is a bit much IMHO.

[quasistellar]

 

This thread from Reddit was quoted in the Goonhammer article.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/deathwatch40k/comments/m6fxsn/deathwatch_are_top_tier_marines_if_you_are/

 

Author describes what he considers the best units and shares the following list.

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Deathwatch) [104 PL, 1,998pts, 7CP] ++

 

Configuration +

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

Stratagems +

 

Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics

 

No Force Org Slot +

 

Apothecary [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Tome of Ectoclades

 

Company Veterans [3 PL, 48pts] . Company Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield . Company Veteran Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield

 

HQ +

 

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 110pts, -1CP]: 3. Nowhere to Hide (Aura), Astartes Chainsword, Dominus Aegis, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

 

Librarian [6 PL, 115pts]: 1. Premorphic Resonance, 2. Fortified With Contempt, 5. Mantle of Shadow, Boltgun, Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Force sword

 

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts, -1CP]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 3. Exhortation of Rage, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Stratagem: A Vigil Unmatched, The Beacon Angelis, Warlord, Wise Orator . 2. Paragon of their Chapter: Ultramarines: Adept of the Codex

 

Troops +

 

Fortis Kill Team [15 PL, 320pts] . Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Bolt rifle . 5x Intercessor w/ Auto Bolt Rifle: 5x Auto Bolt Rifle, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades . 4x Outrider: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Twin Bolt rifle

 

Fortis Kill Team [17 PL, 285pts]: Aquila . 5x Hellblaster w/ Assault plasma incinerator: 5x Assault Plasma Incinerator, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Auto Bolt Rifle . Intercessor w/ Astartes Grenade Launcher: Astartes grenade launcher, Auto Bolt Rifle . 3x Intercessor w/ Auto Bolt Rifle: 3x Auto Bolt Rifle, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

 

Indomitor Kill Team [20 PL, 390pts]: Dominatus . 3x Aggressor w/ Flamestorm Gauntlets: 6x Flamestorm Gauntlets . Heavy Intercessor Sergeant: Hellstorm Bolt Rifle . 4x Heavy Intercessor w/ Hellstorm Bolt Rifle: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hellstorm Bolt Rifle . 2x Inceptor w/ Plasma Exterminators: 2x 2x Plasma Exterminators

 

Elites +

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Servitors [2 PL, 30pts]: 4x Servo-arm

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 285pts]: Jump Pack . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy thunder hammer

 

++ Total: [104 PL, 7CP, 1,998pts] ++

 

I'm a little skeptical of his claim that DW can be Tier 1 with the right units. For HQs, he's taking a Captain on a Bike, a Chaplain on a Bike, a Librarian, and an Apothecary. He's saying the right combination of WLTs / Relics / Stratagems / Secondaries increase the resilience of units to the point where they're very hard to remove. The main units he highlights are:

 

- Fortis KT: 6x intercessors with ABR + 4x outriders

 

- Indomitor KT w/ Dominatus specialization: 5x Heavy Intercessors w/ hellstorm bolt rifles + 3x aggressors w/ flame storm gauntlets + 2x plasma inceptors

 

- Fortis KT w/ Aquila specialization: 5x intercessors w/ auto bolt rifles + 5x hellblasters w/ assault plasma incinerators

 

- Vanguard Vets: Sergeant w/ heavy thunder hammer, 9x storm shields, 8x lightning claws and 1x chainsword

 

While I can see these guys getting some work done, I get the sense he's playing to the missions. This quote from the article seems important.

 

 

Remember, the idea is that you start with 15 secondary points and it’s your opponents job to catch up. Against armies like DG, having a crazy gunline and waiting for enemies to come to you or lose 5 points a turn from the long vigil is just debilitating. Apothecary will top up half the losses from any chaff shooting you take.

 

 

 

 

I'm trying to figure out how that list doesn't get nearly tabled by turn 3 against Drukhari (although to be fair I think that reddit post was written before Drukhari codex release?).

 

Anyway, It's pretty obvious to me what the real problem is:  SIA, the chapter tactic, and super doctrine.  In exchange for being able to take slightly larger squads of objective secured outriders, and squads of objective secured aggressors, inceptors, and eliminators, Deathwatch almost effectively get no super doctrine, and a chapter tactic that's almost completely redundant with other units and abilities available to the army.

 

One of the questions you have to ask yourself (if we're talking competitively) is:  "why should I play Deathwatch instead of another chapter?".  When I see the army list above, I think to myself:  "why would I not just play a very similar list as Blood Angels or White Scars?"  I have tried and simply can't come up with a good build that wouldn't simply be White Scars, Blood Angles, Salamanders, or Iron Hands, but worse.

 

I really like the suggestion above for giving SIA back during the Tactical doctrines.  Maybe limit it just a bit more than in the past (i.e. can't be used on storm bolters or heavy intercessor weapons).  

[thinkerofuselessthings]

 

 

This thread from Reddit was quoted in the Goonhammer article.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/deathwatch40k/comments/m6fxsn/deathwatch_are_top_tier_marines_if_you_are/

 

Author describes what he considers the best units and shares the following list.

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Deathwatch) [104 PL, 1,998pts, 7CP] ++

 

Configuration +

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

Stratagems +

 

Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics

 

No Force Org Slot +

 

Apothecary [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Tome of Ectoclades

 

Company Veterans [3 PL, 48pts] . Company Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield . Company Veteran Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield

 

HQ +

 

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 110pts, -1CP]: 3. Nowhere to Hide (Aura), Astartes Chainsword, Dominus Aegis, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

 

Librarian [6 PL, 115pts]: 1. Premorphic Resonance, 2. Fortified With Contempt, 5. Mantle of Shadow, Boltgun, Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Force sword

 

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts, -1CP]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 3. Exhortation of Rage, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Stratagem: A Vigil Unmatched, The Beacon Angelis, Warlord, Wise Orator . 2. Paragon of their Chapter: Ultramarines: Adept of the Codex

 

Troops +

 

Fortis Kill Team [15 PL, 320pts] . Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Bolt rifle . 5x Intercessor w/ Auto Bolt Rifle: 5x Auto Bolt Rifle, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades . 4x Outrider: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Twin Bolt rifle

 

Fortis Kill Team [17 PL, 285pts]: Aquila . 5x Hellblaster w/ Assault plasma incinerator: 5x Assault Plasma Incinerator, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Auto Bolt Rifle . Intercessor w/ Astartes Grenade Launcher: Astartes grenade launcher, Auto Bolt Rifle . 3x Intercessor w/ Auto Bolt Rifle: 3x Auto Bolt Rifle, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

 

Indomitor Kill Team [20 PL, 390pts]: Dominatus . 3x Aggressor w/ Flamestorm Gauntlets: 6x Flamestorm Gauntlets . Heavy Intercessor Sergeant: Hellstorm Bolt Rifle . 4x Heavy Intercessor w/ Hellstorm Bolt Rifle: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hellstorm Bolt Rifle . 2x Inceptor w/ Plasma Exterminators: 2x 2x Plasma Exterminators

 

Elites +

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Servitors [2 PL, 30pts]: 4x Servo-arm

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 285pts]: Jump Pack . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy thunder hammer

 

++ Total: [104 PL, 7CP, 1,998pts] ++

 

I'm a little skeptical of his claim that DW can be Tier 1 with the right units. For HQs, he's taking a Captain on a Bike, a Chaplain on a Bike, a Librarian, and an Apothecary. He's saying the right combination of WLTs / Relics / Stratagems / Secondaries increase the resilience of units to the point where they're very hard to remove. The main units he highlights are:

 

- Fortis KT: 6x intercessors with ABR + 4x outriders

 

- Indomitor KT w/ Dominatus specialization: 5x Heavy Intercessors w/ hellstorm bolt rifles + 3x aggressors w/ flame storm gauntlets + 2x plasma inceptors

 

- Fortis KT w/ Aquila specialization: 5x intercessors w/ auto bolt rifles + 5x hellblasters w/ assault plasma incinerators

 

- Vanguard Vets: Sergeant w/ heavy thunder hammer, 9x storm shields, 8x lightning claws and 1x chainsword

 

While I can see these guys getting some work done, I get the sense he's playing to the missions. This quote from the article seems important.

 

 

Remember, the idea is that you start with 15 secondary points and it’s your opponents job to catch up. Against armies like DG, having a crazy gunline and waiting for enemies to come to you or lose 5 points a turn from the long vigil is just debilitating. Apothecary will top up half the losses from any chaff shooting you take.

 

 

 

 

I'm trying to figure out how that list doesn't get nearly tabled by turn 3 against Drukhari (although to be fair I think that reddit post was written before Drukhari codex release?).

 

Anyway, It's pretty obvious to me what the real problem is:  SIA, the chapter tactic, and super doctrine.  In exchange for being able to take slightly larger squads of objective secured outriders, and squads of objective secured aggressors, inceptors, and eliminators, Deathwatch almost effectively get no super doctrine, and a chapter tactic that's almost completely redundant with other units and abilities available to the army.

 

One of the questions you have to ask yourself (if we're talking competitively) is:  "why should I play Deathwatch instead of another chapter?".  When I see the army list above, I think to myself:  "why would I not just play a very similar list as Blood Angels or White Scars?"  I have tried and simply can't come up with a good build that wouldn't simply be White Scars, Blood Angles, Salamanders, or Iron Hands, but worse.

 

I really like the suggestion above for giving SIA back during the Tactical doctrines.  Maybe limit it just a bit more than in the past (i.e. can't be used on storm bolters or heavy intercessor weapons).  

 

 

you are right, the reddit tactics was written before Drukhari codex release, and probably like you suggested it will require a lot to be updated. 

 

However, as new codexes will be released, the effectiveness of previous 9th edition armies will change and it is not impossibile that our supplement could have a new life.

 

Despite this little hope, and until some major changes (SIA, super doctrine, chapter tactics) we need to rely on our strength. 

 

I'm working to be used with Long Vigil secondary objective and I have to admit that it let you build all around. Probably not the most strong objective but help to define a strategy.

 

We have great defensive abilities (Aegis, Psychic Fortress, Fortified with Contempt, larger gravis armour squad) that could be the base for a winning strategy. 

 

Recently I played a game against Imperial Fists that got tabled by turn three. I won 100 to 28 and Long Vigil help a lot. 

 

However is the right objective against shooty or static armies. Against those with great maneuverability (es DA Ravenwing or Deathwing with deep strinking unkillable terminators or Drukhari) it is less appealing. 

 

What we can do is sharing our experiences with secondary objective and played games. We need to maximize every possibile choice against every codexes. 

 

Adeptus Mechanicus probably will be the most craziest shooting army of 40k that could help changing the meta in our favor.  

 

As for now the only reason to play deathwatch is lore and modelling/painting, and it is not a secondary one.

[Morticon]

For what it's worth a DW list is absolutely dominating the Shanghai league at the moment.  Its been on the top spot for a while now, and is largely undefeated.  It's also tabled tournament level DG and a solid Druk list too.  

He'll be playing it in the upcoming East China Open this weekend and is considered one of the stronger contenders - so will be interesting to see how that goes.

I 

 

 

 

 

This thread from Reddit was quoted in the Goonhammer article.
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/deathwatch40k/comments/m6fxsn/deathwatch_are_top_tier_marines_if_you_are/
 
Author describes what he considers the best units and shares the following list.
 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Deathwatch) [104 PL, 1,998pts, 7CP] ++

Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Stratagems +

Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics

No Force Org Slot +

Apothecary [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Tome of Ectoclades

Company Veterans [3 PL, 48pts] . Company Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield . Company Veteran Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield

HQ +

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 110pts, -1CP]: 3. Nowhere to Hide (Aura), Astartes Chainsword, Dominus Aegis, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

Librarian [6 PL, 115pts]: 1. Premorphic Resonance, 2. Fortified With Contempt, 5. Mantle of Shadow, Boltgun, Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Force sword

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts, -1CP]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 3. Exhortation of Rage, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Stratagem: A Vigil Unmatched, The Beacon Angelis, Warlord, Wise Orator . 2. Paragon of their Chapter: Ultramarines: Adept of the Codex

Troops +

Fortis Kill Team [15 PL, 320pts] . Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Bolt rifle . 5x Intercessor w/ Auto Bolt Rifle: 5x Auto Bolt Rifle, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades . 4x Outrider: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Twin Bolt rifle

Fortis Kill Team [17 PL, 285pts]: Aquila . 5x Hellblaster w/ Assault plasma incinerator: 5x Assault Plasma Incinerator, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Auto Bolt Rifle . Intercessor w/ Astartes Grenade Launcher: Astartes grenade launcher, Auto Bolt Rifle . 3x Intercessor w/ Auto Bolt Rifle: 3x Auto Bolt Rifle, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

Indomitor Kill Team [20 PL, 390pts]: Dominatus . 3x Aggressor w/ Flamestorm Gauntlets: 6x Flamestorm Gauntlets . Heavy Intercessor Sergeant: Hellstorm Bolt Rifle . 4x Heavy Intercessor w/ Hellstorm Bolt Rifle: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hellstorm Bolt Rifle . 2x Inceptor w/ Plasma Exterminators: 2x 2x Plasma Exterminators

Elites +

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Servitors [2 PL, 30pts]: 4x Servo-arm

Vanguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 285pts]: Jump Pack . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy thunder hammer

++ Total: [104 PL, 7CP, 1,998pts] ++

 

I'm a little skeptical of his claim that DW can be Tier 1 with the right units. For HQs, he's taking a Captain on a Bike, a Chaplain on a Bike, a Librarian, and an Apothecary. He's saying the right combination of WLTs / Relics / Stratagems / Secondaries increase the resilience of units to the point where they're very hard to remove. The main units he highlights are:

 

- Fortis KT: 6x intercessors with ABR + 4x outriders

 

- Indomitor KT w/ Dominatus specialization: 5x Heavy Intercessors w/ hellstorm bolt rifles + 3x aggressors w/ flame storm gauntlets + 2x plasma inceptors

 

- Fortis KT w/ Aquila specialization: 5x intercessors w/ auto bolt rifles + 5x hellblasters w/ assault plasma incinerators

 

- Vanguard Vets: Sergeant w/ heavy thunder hammer, 9x storm shields, 8x lightning claws and 1x chainsword

 

While I can see these guys getting some work done, I get the sense he's playing to the missions. This quote from the article seems important.

 

 

Remember, the idea is that you start with 15 secondary points and it’s your opponents job to catch up. Against armies like DG, having a crazy gunline and waiting for enemies to come to you or lose 5 points a turn from the long vigil is just debilitating. Apothecary will top up half the losses from any chaff shooting you take.

 

 

 

 

I'm trying to figure out how that list doesn't get nearly tabled by turn 3 against Drukhari (although to be fair I think that reddit post was written before Drukhari codex release?).

 

Anyway, It's pretty obvious to me what the real problem is:  SIA, the chapter tactic, and super doctrine.  In exchange for being able to take slightly larger squads of objective secured outriders, and squads of objective secured aggressors, inceptors, and eliminators, Deathwatch almost effectively get no super doctrine, and a chapter tactic that's almost completely redundant with other units and abilities available to the army.

 

One of the questions you have to ask yourself (if we're talking competitively) is:  "why should I play Deathwatch instead of another chapter?".  When I see the army list above, I think to myself:  "why would I not just play a very similar list as Blood Angels or White Scars?"  I have tried and simply can't come up with a good build that wouldn't simply be White Scars, Blood Angles, Salamanders, or Iron Hands, but worse.

 

I really like the suggestion above for giving SIA back during the Tactical doctrines.  Maybe limit it just a bit more than in the past (i.e. can't be used on storm bolters or heavy intercessor weapons).  

 

 

you are right, the reddit tactics was written before Drukhari codex release, and probably like you suggested it will require a lot to be updated. 

 

However, as new codexes will be released, the effectiveness of previous 9th edition armies will change and it is not impossibile that our supplement could have a new life.

 

Despite this little hope, and until some major changes (SIA, super doctrine, chapter tactics) we need to rely on our strength. 

 

I'm working to be used with Long Vigil secondary objective and I have to admit that it let you build all around. Probably not the most strong objective but help to define a strategy.

 

We have great defensive abilities (Aegis, Psychic Fortress, Fortified with Contempt, larger gravis armour squad) that could be the base for a winning strategy. 

 

Recently I played a game against Imperial Fists that got tabled by turn three. I won 100 to 28 and Long Vigil help a lot. 

 

However is the right objective against shooty or static armies. Against those with great maneuverability (es DA Ravenwing or Deathwing with deep strinking unkillable terminators or Drukhari) it is less appealing. 

 

What we can do is sharing our experiences with secondary objective and played games. We need to maximize every possibile choice against every codexes. 

 

Adeptus Mechanicus probably will be the most craziest shooting army of 40k that could help changing the meta in our favor.  

 

As for now the only reason to play deathwatch is lore and modelling/painting, and it is not a secondary one.

 

I just read this post.  This is Z and his list.  Thats actually who I was talking about above.  

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mort and his friends have the ability to think outside the box .

[Morticon]

Mort and his friends have the ability to think outside the box .

 

I'll take it

 

Nah, for real, that list is mad mad scay.  Just destroys on secondaries. 

[techsoldaten]

For what it's worth a DW list is absolutely dominating the Shanghai league at the moment.  Its been on the top spot for a while now, and is largely undefeated.  It's also tabled tournament level DG and a solid Druk list too.  

 

He'll be playing it in the upcoming East China Open this weekend and is considered one of the stronger contenders - so will be interesting to see how that goes.

....

I just read this post.  This is Z and his list.  Thats actually who I was talking about above.  

 

 

Oh thank goodness.

 

I've been building something similar. Was worried I was missing the downsides.

 

Please update this thread with details on how he does.

[Morticon]

What interested me about that Reddit post was how much opposition and fight he got for the ideas. 

 

Came out and basically said - "This is completely wrecking shop - and its DW"  and people were like.... "Well actually..."

 

Peeps gotta jump on that and check it out

[techsoldaten]

What interested me about that Reddit post was how much opposition and fight he got for the ideas. 

 

Came out and basically said - "This is completely wrecking shop - and its DW"  and people were like.... "Well actually..."

 

Peeps gotta jump on that and check it out

 

Can't play currently due to lockdowns and take all comments on the Internet as suspect until proven otherwise.

 

So the only way I have of analyzing his list is mathhammer. What I observed:

 

- Spectrum of good shooting. Has tools for dealing with infantry, heavy infantry, armor. This isn't typical of pre-9th ed lists, which were mostly equipped for infantry. With buffs, most of his units are lethal vs anything less than TEQ.

 

- Spectrum of good saves. The Outriders and Heavy Infantry are going to stick around. VG Vets are going to ignore some wounds. The Intercessors are really the only squishy part. Apothecary makes them better.

 

- Plenty of good CC. Lightning Claw VG Vets are very efficient for the points.

 

- Speed. He has 4x 5 man squads that can move 12" and Stratagems for deep striking. Combined with good saves, seems really important for taking and holding objectives.

 

This looks like a good list. Not a good Deathwatch list, a good list period. I don't see how it's going to handle something like a Voidraven Bomber, but it is equipped for most other situations.

 

The only thing I'm not sure about is the Redemptor. Might not be necessary to put a bullet magnet on the board, more Heavy Intercessors might be a better option given their range and the strength of their shooting. Or more Aggressors. But I'd need to get in a few games to have a strong opinion.

[Morticon]

He switched out the Redemptor for a volkite Contemptor, btw!  

[Morticon]

After Day 1, DW undefeated and on top table with Demon player that trashed me in game one.

[Morticon]

Highest VP by a long way too