What's wrong with Supplement: Deathwatch?

techsoldaten · May 22, 2021

Love the reports, keep them coming!

Morticon · May 23, 2021

Death Watch just lost 93-89 in a tight game vs the demons.

Z moved his biker off the objective by mistake, or otherwise didn't see it was on the objective and assumed it was cause of distance....lost him 5 points in the phase would have had him at 94-93

thinkerofuselessthings · May 23, 2021

Without interfering with Morticon narration, I report the overall results and the winning Deathwatch list.

Link to the results:

https://web.bestcoastpairings.com/event-placings.php?eventId=Gx0eTXz9sW

Top 5:

Deathwatch - 97/98/91/89(loss)/100

Chaos Daemons - 74/100/86/93/??

Death Guard - 86/87/86/89/??

Death Guard - 78(loos)/92/91/84/70(loss)

Necrons - 98/79(loss)/73/95/??

note: some results are missing from BCPA, I would like to see what are the final scoring because Deathwatch is the only in top3 that has a loss. However this is a confirmation that Z is really a capable player, that is able to gain maximum scoring from secondaries. I would be really interesting to have a report about what secondaries have been used.

Deathwatch winning list

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Deathwatch) [106 PL, 2,000pts, 6CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics

+ No Force Org Slot +

Company Veterans [3 PL, 40pts]

. Company Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun

. Company Veteran Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun

+ HQ +

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 110pts, -1CP]: 3. Nowhere to Hide (Aura), Astartes Chainsword, Dominus Aegis, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

Librarian [6 PL, 115pts]: 1. Premorphic Resonance, 2. Fortified With Contempt, Boltgun, Force stave, Jump Pack

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts, -1CP]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 5. Recitation of Focus, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Stratagem: A Vigil Unmatched, The Beacon Angelis, Warlord, Wise Orator

. 2. Paragon of their Chapter: Ultramarines: Adept of the Codex

+ Troops +

Fortis Kill Team [18 PL, 300pts]: Malleus

. 5x Hellblaster w/ Assault plasma incinerator: 5x Assault Plasma Incinerator, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Auto Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor w/ Astartes Grenade Launcher: Astartes grenade launcher, Auto Bolt Rifle

. 3x Intercessor w/ Auto Bolt Rifle: 3x Auto Bolt Rifle, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

Fortis Kill Team [15 PL, 320pts]

. Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Auto Bolt Rifle

. 5x Intercessor w/ Auto Bolt Rifle: 5x Auto Bolt Rifle, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades

. 4x Outrider: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Twin Bolt rifle

Indomitor Kill Team [20 PL, 390pts]: Dominatus

. 3x Aggressor w/ Flamestorm Gauntlets: 6x Flamestorm Gauntlets

. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant: Hellstorm Bolt Rifle

. 4x Heavy Intercessor w/ Hellstorm Bolt Rifle: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hellstorm Bolt Rifle

. 2x Inceptor w/ Plasma Exterminators: 2x 2x Plasma Exterminators

+ Elites +

Apothecary [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Tome of Ectoclades

Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin

Servitors [2 PL, 30pts]: 4x Servo-arm

Vanguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 285pts]: Jump Pack

. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield

. Vanguard Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield

. Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy thunder hammer

What I really like is the use of hellblaster in a Fortis Kill Team. I'm not completely sold on Veteran with jump pack, but the incredibile scoring and performance let me give them a try.

However I have to note that the list of armies is lacking in Drukhari list (just one). That's not a minor issue because they at the moment are the referring top tier army.

Despite this note I'm happy to see an effective list and a player that's winning with Deathwatch despite the odds.

Morticon · May 23, 2021

DW slaughtered Mortarion list in game five. I think he should place second.

First place was a narrow DG win over the Demon player (82-79) thanks to a statistically unlikely failed charge

Morticon · May 23, 2021

DW averaged 95 points over five games.

techsoldaten · May 23, 2021

DW averaged 95 points over five games.

Words fail me.

Well, not really.

The number of appearances in tournaments prior to this one was very small. The lists I did read might have not been updated for 9th.

We need to see how similar lists fare over multiple tournaments in regional locations before drawing any conclusions. But this is promising!

Edited May 23, 2021 by techsoldaten

Morticon · May 24, 2021

Literally the only reason he didn't win is because of the small play error in game 4.

I'm very, very impressed with it, and think DW players should strongly consider looking to borrowing aspects of it.

My thinking (and I include myself in this thought since i had a small DW collection Id use with my BA from 8th) was to try get the old firstborn (previously with storm bolters and SIA) to work. That's what worked before right?

But, I think strength of the dex has shifted so strongly to other areas that it hasn't allowed the DW players with existing collections to really maximise potential.

You wind up looking at what you have thinking "how can i make this work" instead of going "right. What is available to me, and how can I get *that* to work?"

thinkerofuselessthings · May 24, 2021

what I'm really interested in is the use of secondary objective.

What sec were used mostly?

techsoldaten · May 24, 2021

My thinking (and I include myself in this thought since i had a small DW collection Id use with my BA from 8th) was to try get the old firstborn (previously with storm bolters and SIA) to work. That's what worked before right?

But, I think strength of the dex has shifted so strongly to other areas that it hasn't allowed the DW players with existing collections to really maximise potential.

You wind up looking at what you have thinking "how can i make this work" instead of going "right. What is available to me, and how can I get *that* to work?"

Tempting to think about how firstborn Marines could fit into a list like this. Not sure it's realistic.

Look at how Intercessors work here. If you swapped them for firstborn, the Hellblasters and Outriders lose ObSec. Same with the Vanguard, losing a high mobility assault unit limits your tactical options.

Hate to say it, firstborn Marines are more points efficient than Intercessors, but Intercessors become stronger as a force multiplier. The real comparison is between Proteus and Fortis Kill Teams, and Fortis KTs are likely the better option.

I'm still having a hard time understanding the Dreadnought as more than a bullet magnet. There's an argument to be made for swapping him for Deathwatch Terminators, deep strike plus that teleport option could be important in 9th. But I'm not sure.

ServoBadger · May 24, 2021

My thinking (and I include myself in this thought since i had a small DW collection Id use with my BA from 8th) was to try get the old firstborn (previously with storm bolters and SIA) to work. That's what worked before right?

But, I think strength of the dex has shifted so strongly to other areas that it hasn't allowed the DW players with existing collections to really maximise potential.

You wind up looking at what you have thinking "how can i make this work" instead of going "right. What is available to me, and how can I get *that* to work?"

Tempting to think about how firstborn Marines could fit into a list like this. Not sure it's realistic.

Look at how Intercessors work here. If you swapped them for firstborn, the Hellblasters and Outriders lose ObSec. Same with the Vanguard, losing a high mobility assault unit limits your tactical options.

Hate to say it, firstborn Marines are more points efficient than Intercessors, but Intercessors become stronger as a force multiplier. The real comparison is between Proteus and Fortis Kill Teams, and Fortis KTs are likely the better option.

I'm still having a hard time understanding the Dreadnought as more than a bullet magnet. There's an argument to be made for swapping him for Deathwatch Terminators, deep strike plus that teleport option could be important in 9th. But I'm not sure.

I'm no tournament player, but if you were doing the Firstborn version of this list, wouldn't it be plasma gun vets to replace the hellblasters and veteran bikers to replace the outriders?

No idea if that would be any good, but it would retain obsec?

techsoldaten · May 24, 2021

My thinking (and I include myself in this thought since i had a small DW collection Id use with my BA from 8th) was to try get the old firstborn (previously with storm bolters and SIA) to work. That's what worked before right?

But, I think strength of the dex has shifted so strongly to other areas that it hasn't allowed the DW players with existing collections to really maximise potential.

You wind up looking at what you have thinking "how can i make this work" instead of going "right. What is available to me, and how can I get *that* to work?"

Tempting to think about how firstborn Marines could fit into a list like this. Not sure it's realistic.

Look at how Intercessors work here. If you swapped them for firstborn, the Hellblasters and Outriders lose ObSec. Same with the Vanguard, losing a high mobility assault unit limits your tactical options.

Hate to say it, firstborn Marines are more points efficient than Intercessors, but Intercessors become stronger as a force multiplier. The real comparison is between Proteus and Fortis Kill Teams, and Fortis KTs are likely the better option.

I'm still having a hard time understanding the Dreadnought as more than a bullet magnet. There's an argument to be made for swapping him for Deathwatch Terminators, deep strike plus that teleport option could be important in 9th. But I'm not sure.

I'm no tournament player, but if you were doing the Firstborn version of this list, wouldn't it be plasma gun vets to replace the hellblasters and veteran bikers to replace the outriders?

No idea if that would be any good, but it would retain obsec?

Kind of. We could do the Mathhammer, but you're trading down on bikes. I assume the same on Hellblasters.

My impression is the firstborn version would be playing on Hard Mode.

Morticon · May 24, 2021

what I'm really interested in is the use of secondary objective.

What sec were used mostly?

Always WWSWF- which he got 15 points for every game, I believe.

Then, I believe Oath of Moments - because once the gravis squad is Beaconed to the middle, there's no moving it. After that, I'm not sure. Possibly Banners I believe!

My thinking (and I include myself in this thought since i had a small DW collection Id use with my BA from 8th) was to try get the old firstborn (previously with storm bolters and SIA) to work. That's what worked before right?

But, I think strength of the dex has shifted so strongly to other areas that it hasn't allowed the DW players with existing collections to really maximise potential.

You wind up looking at what you have thinking "how can i make this work" instead of going "right. What is available to me, and how can I get *that* to work?"

Tempting to think about how firstborn Marines could fit into a list like this. Not sure it's realistic.

Look at how Intercessors work here. If you swapped them for firstborn, the Hellblasters and Outriders lose ObSec. Same with the Vanguard, losing a high mobility assault unit limits your tactical options.

Hate to say it, firstborn Marines are more points efficient than Intercessors, but Intercessors become stronger as a force multiplier. The real comparison is between Proteus and Fortis Kill Teams, and Fortis KTs are likely the better option.

I'm still having a hard time understanding the Dreadnought as more than a bullet magnet. There's an argument to be made for swapping him for Deathwatch Terminators, deep strike plus that teleport option could be important in 9th. But I'm not sure.

Oh 100% ! Firstborn absolutely wouldnt work in this. The power is in the gravis to be honest. T5 and more wounds and the Apoth ...just too much goodness.

As for the dread- It could be just some good additional dakka needed.

DeathwatchSH · May 27, 2021

what I'm really interested in is the use of secondary objective.

What sec were used mostly?

Game 1: space wolves. I went for raise the banners, WWSWF and Engage on All fronts.

I only raised 1 banner turn 1 because I was assuming I’d table or almost table him by the end game. A space wolves melee list goes down really fast.

I lost 2 pojnts from engage and 1 from banners. My banner points were 1/2/2/4/5.

Game 2: it was retrieval. This was a no brainer. WWSWF, banners, minimize losses. I only threw my vanguard vets infront of hellblasters and traded them for his lychguard. Maxed primary by end of game and only lost 1 unit.

Game 3: against custodes I took banners, WWSWF and engage. Vanvets went out turn 1 to score engage. Made a mistake using my Xenos hunter on heavy. Lost a few points on banners and engage, maxed primary.

Game 4: took banners, WWSWF, and assassinate. Lost 10 points on primary because I didn’t step onto objective. Did well on secondaries.

Game 5: took WWSWF, domination and direct assault. My first turn, advanced and killed the nearby poxwalkers with hellblasters and toed into Center objective with bike base. Second turn, fell back with bikes and took it with company vets. Had 4 objective for all 5 turns.

This tournament didn’t have many Center objective maps. Otherwise domination would have show up a lot more on maps like priority target and scouring. I also often take domination on battle lines but depends on matchup.

techsoldaten · May 27, 2021

My thinking (and I include myself in this thought since i had a small DW collection Id use with my BA from 8th) was to try get the old firstborn (previously with storm bolters and SIA) to work. That's what worked before right?

But, I think strength of the dex has shifted so strongly to other areas that it hasn't allowed the DW players with existing collections to really maximise potential.

You wind up looking at what you have thinking "how can i make this work" instead of going "right. What is available to me, and how can I get *that* to work?"

Tempting to think about how firstborn Marines could fit into a list like this. Not sure it's realistic.

Look at how Intercessors work here. If you swapped them for firstborn, the Hellblasters and Outriders lose ObSec. Same with the Vanguard, losing a high mobility assault unit limits your tactical options.

Hate to say it, firstborn Marines are more points efficient than Intercessors, but Intercessors become stronger as a force multiplier. The real comparison is between Proteus and Fortis Kill Teams, and Fortis KTs are likely the better option.

I'm still having a hard time understanding the Dreadnought as more than a bullet magnet. There's an argument to be made for swapping him for Deathwatch Terminators, deep strike plus that teleport option could be important in 9th. But I'm not sure.

Oh 100% ! Firstborn absolutely wouldnt work in this. The power is in the gravis to be honest. T5 and more wounds and the Apoth ...just too much goodness.

As for the dread- It could be just some good additional dakka needed.

@Morticon - first off, thank you for your coverage of the China Open.

Can't find much else about how DW performed, you may be the only person who noticed.

Second, have been thinking more about the Dreadnought. A pair of Land Speeder Storms might be the appropriate replacement. They have the mobility to grab objectives early on, they have the wounds to survive a round of light shooting. They can also add support for a Vanguard Vet squad.

I think what's challenging about the Dreadnought is the lack of mobility. Curious - did you notice how the Dreadnought specifically performed? My guess it it's dead by turn 3 most games.

what I'm really interested in is the use of secondary objective.

What sec were used mostly?

Game 1: space wolves. I went for raise the banners, WWSWF and Engage on All fronts.

I only raised 1 banner turn 1 because I was assuming I’d table or almost table him by the end game. A space wolves melee list goes down really fast.

I lost 2 pojnts from engage and 1 from banners. My banner points were 1/2/2/4/5.

Game 2: it was retrieval. This was a no brainer. WWSWF, banners, minimize losses. I only threw my vanguard vets infront of hellblasters and traded them for his lychguard. Maxed primary by end of game and only lost 1 unit.

Game 3: against custodes I took banners, WWSWF and engage. Vanvets went out turn 1 to score engage. Made a mistake using my Xenos hunter on heavy. Lost a few points on banners and engage, maxed primary.

Game 4: took banners, WWSWF, and assassinate. Lost 10 points on primary because I didn’t step onto objective. Did well on secondaries.

Game 5: took WWSWF, domination and direct assault. My first turn, advanced and killed the nearby poxwalkers with hellblasters and toed into Center objective with bike base. Second turn, fell back with bikes and took it with company vets. Had 4 objective for all 5 turns.

This tournament didn’t have many Center objective maps. Otherwise domination would have show up a lot more on maps like priority target and scouring. I also often take domination on battle lines but depends on matchup.

Hey - I recognize that name.

Congratulations on being the world's most successful Deathwatch player!

I've spent a lot of time analyzing and dissecting your list. There's not a lot of analysis of DW out there, you seem to have made some excellent decisions.

Would love to know your thoughts on objective holding. Seems like you would be grabbing them early and doing everything possible not to move off them. Is that a fair read?

Wondering how the Vanguard Vets play into this, how are you using them? My guess is assaulting opponents in the backfield and disrupting their ability to hold objectives. Do you start them on the table or bring them in from reserves?

Edited May 27, 2021 by techsoldaten

DeathwatchSH · May 28, 2021

Here is my new breakdown for my DW list on Reddit. Glad you’ve liked the content:

https://www.reddit.com/r/deathwatch40k/comments/nki9fc/deathwatch_firewall_20_competitive_build_results/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

To answer a few questions, including some I saw in this topic.

Dreadnought: it only died in my game against custodes. Turn 4 I used it to block the path of a telemon. Basically it just died cause I used it as a move blocker. Otherwise almost never dies.

The contemptor has a small foot print that makes it way easier to hide than a redemptor. It’s also got massive range so operates well n the backfield. In many games, it also gave me reroll 1s on two flanks, which is important cause I have so much plasma. You’ll also not be able to get any other model that provides as much firepower for the points.

DW contemptor is exceptionally strong too. They can ignore cover and get ap1 easily. That’s a 2ap swing vs something like a deathguard contemptor. The mortals are rare for marines and we have one turn where it can reroll all wounds.

Overall, very powerful, very durable, very long reach. Enemies cannot kite me this way. The redemptor is still great though and might make a return.

My original reason for taking dreadnoughts at all was to kill anti tank infantry, especially eradicators. They also can tabk specific types of units.

DRUKHARI: I’ve only fought them 4x so far but I’ve yet to lose against them using DW.

There are many things that are stacked against Drukhari in our matchup.

1) Suffer Not The Alien always gets maxed. This means I don’t take WWSWF since it’s the same category. I don’t worry about losing full kill teams by the end, which can fight crazy hard now.

2) I can kill 3-4 raiders in a turn without even using tome of estoclades. I do just to make sure they die, but it goes down fast. The hellblaster squad has MALLEUS so I am rerolling all wounds against dedicated transports. If you get the +1 to hit, you are hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s. The plasmas wound on 3s, reroll all. Grenade wounds on 4 and bolters wound on 5.

It’s impossible to hide all the raiders from my hellblasters that just deploy on the line. I can beacon them but traditionally I’ve never needed to. I advance them and spend 1CP for prognosticating volley. That cancels the -1 from advancing and any other strategems or dense cover while still benefitting from the +1.

Contemptor will also be able to kill one. Bikes and indomitors can help finish off boats that aren’t dead. Someone is probably gonna benefit from +1 wounding as well.

Now what you want to really kill first if you can are the boats with wracks. Yes their melee is scary. But... melee is really easy to mitigate. You will have to sacrifice something but the trade will come out in your favour.

In previous games it was outriders and vanvets. Assuming they are in position to charge with wyches and succubus next turn, I move my outriders’ massive bases to block the front side exits of the raider as well as paths that land directly towards what they want to charge. This allows me to actually move my whole army forward and push into them hard.

Move block the disembark and safely move up your army. At the same time. One of the big problems for Drukhari is also you play against their secondaries, which is engage on all fronts. In one of my games, DED was only able to score 4 points. Their stuff dies so incredibly fast to DW firepower.

You kill their mobility, have tough obsec, force them to deal with objective stealing bikes in their base, road block with VVs, and you’ve got it.

Some people complain you can’t road block because of Dance of Death. That’s not true at all. You can still block the end of their move AND you can block their disembark. It is more than enough to disrupt them.

VANGUARD VETS:

I’ve said in the Reddit post, but these guys are the most complicated factor in your army. Their job is basically different in every single game and only experience will tell you what they should do in each game. At the tournament, I’ve split them, kept them togetber, deep struck both, deep struck 1 or deep struck nothing and kept them as 2 separate units.

In the SW game, half of the deep struck and half were on the table, getting me engage for different rounds.

Against necrons, I kept them as a blob and use it to hold the objective in my base with an outrider toed in to make sure scarabs couldn’t steal it. Later in the game, I just placed them infront of my hellblasters so lychguard couldn’t charge my guns and I wouldn’t have to move my hellblasters off an objective.

Against custodes, 5 dashed right into the back where Sagittarium were and killed them off the objective with fire support. Then it forced a Dreadnought to go back and kill them and sit on that objective.

Against daemons, they were also gonna steal and objective and screened blood letters deep strike from 3rd floor. Also couldn’t be charged by keeper or blood letters cause of elevation.

Game 5 they were both deployed on the edge of deployment zones waiting to jump to the two midfield objectives before the DG could ever get there. Took 4 turns for the PBC to get through just one unit. Held 4 objectives all game cause of them.

They can raise banners, do actions, kill, steal, assassinate, move block, screen, wrap, supper, hold objectives, deep strike, you name it. I don’t think my list would work without these guys.

Edited May 28, 2021 by DeathwatchSH

thinkerofuselessthings · May 28, 2021

This is an amazing report.

Your insight on reddit is inspiring. Thank you to share your experience.

I'm really interested to open up a discussion by tomorrow with the updated secondary objective and mission from grand tournament 2021.

Secondary objective are a key scoring part as you showed in your games.

The only thing I have to do now is to find the right model for servitors, the current available range is horrible!

DeathwatchSH · May 28, 2021

This is an amazing report.

Your insight on reddit is inspiring. Thank you to share your experience.

I'm really interested to open up a discussion by tomorrow with the updated secondary objective and mission from grand tournament 2021.

Secondary objective are a key scoring part as you showed in your games.

The only thing I have to do now is to find the right model for servitors, the current available range is horrible!

I think don’t worry about servitors just yet haha. Let’s see what happens after this new chapter approved. My list is built around the current missions and if those change along with points, 3.0 might look incredibly different.

thinkerofuselessthings · May 28, 2021

This is an amazing report.

Your insight on reddit is inspiring. Thank you to share your experience.

I'm really interested to open up a discussion by tomorrow with the updated secondary objective and mission from grand tournament 2021.

Secondary objective are a key scoring part as you showed in your games.

The only thing I have to do now is to find the right model for servitors, the current available range is horrible!

I think don’t worry about servitors just yet haha. Let’s see what happens after this new chapter approved. My list is built around the current missions and if those change along with points, 3.0 might look incredibly different.

I agree, we should start a dedicated discussion as soon as the new book will be available.

As you have showed, secondary are the main reason to build a list around!

techsoldaten · May 28, 2021

This is an amazing report.

Your insight on reddit is inspiring. Thank you to share your experience.

I'm really interested to open up a discussion by tomorrow with the updated secondary objective and mission from grand tournament 2021.

Secondary objective are a key scoring part as you showed in your games.

The only thing I have to do now is to find the right model for servitors, the current available range is horrible!

I think don’t worry about servitors just yet haha. Let’s see what happens after this new chapter approved. My list is built around the current missions and if those change along with points, 3.0 might look incredibly different.

I'm interested in seeing what comes as well.

Lockdowns have kept me from playing 9th edition, so all my comments are speculative.

When it comes time to return, I'm considering a variant of your list focused more on Fast Attack. The logic being that the Fortis KTs create a pretty strong firebase, it could be strengthened with the addition of high mobility units to keep opponents off-balance.

While I've read your comments about Apothecaries and how they factor into keeping units on the table, it's hard for me to visualize. My local meta is historically brutal, lots of strong Dark Eldar / Imperial Knight / Ork players haunting the tables. They crush fire bases with concentrated numbers / firepower, think 8 Armigers or 120 Boys charging turn 2 backed by long range shooting.

If the missions in CA do change, I suspect the direction will be away from controlling objectives and more towards "goals" such as The Relic. Which is why I'm looking at things like Land Speeders, would love to be prepared for change with a high mobility variant.

DeathwatchSH · May 29, 2021

This is an amazing report.

Your insight on reddit is inspiring. Thank you to share your experience.

I'm really interested to open up a discussion by tomorrow with the updated secondary objective and mission from grand tournament 2021.

Secondary objective are a key scoring part as you showed in your games.

The only thing I have to do now is to find the right model for servitors, the current available range is horrible!

I think don’t worry about servitors just yet haha. Let’s see what happens after this new chapter approved. My list is built around the current missions and if those change along with points, 3.0 might look incredibly different.

I'm interested in seeing what comes as well.

Lockdowns have kept me from playing 9th edition, so all my comments are speculative.

When it comes time to return, I'm considering a variant of your list focused more on Fast Attack. The logic being that the Fortis KTs create a pretty strong firebase, it could be strengthened with the addition of high mobility units to keep opponents off-balance.

While I've read your comments about Apothecaries and how they factor into keeping units on the table, it's hard for me to visualize. My local meta is historically brutal, lots of strong Dark Eldar / Imperial Knight / Ork players haunting the tables. They crush fire bases with concentrated numbers / firepower, think 8 Armigers or 120 Boys charging turn 2 backed by long range shooting.

If the missions in CA do change, I suspect the direction will be away from controlling objectives and more towards "goals" such as The Relic. Which is why I'm looking at things like Land Speeders, would love to be prepared for change with a high mobility variant.

You gotta think what can you put in fast attack that’s actually gonna matter. At this moment, the softest targets are vanvets, which are way tougher than thibgs like land speeders for their points, easier to hide, larger numbers for objective holding and pack more punch. Most fast attack options won’t play the mission either.

I’ve played against all the lists you are talking about. Tabled both knights and chaos knights fairly easily. Table dark eldar pretty frequently. People have stopped taking that many boyz against me cause I’ve been able to kill 120 in two turns.

Dark eldar could have lots of alternate tech, but I’ve played against a dozen different ork lists and they’ve never had a chance. 120 boyz is already more than 1000 points that can’t even scratch you.

techsoldaten · May 29, 2021

I'm interested in seeing what comes as well.

Lockdowns have kept me from playing 9th edition, so all my comments are speculative.

When it comes time to return, I'm considering a variant of your list focused more on Fast Attack. The logic being that the Fortis KTs create a pretty strong firebase, it could be strengthened with the addition of high mobility units to keep opponents off-balance.

While I've read your comments about Apothecaries and how they factor into keeping units on the table, it's hard for me to visualize. My local meta is historically brutal, lots of strong Dark Eldar / Imperial Knight / Ork players haunting the tables. They crush fire bases with concentrated numbers / firepower, think 8 Armigers or 120 Boys charging turn 2 backed by long range shooting.

If the missions in CA do change, I suspect the direction will be away from controlling objectives and more towards "goals" such as The Relic. Which is why I'm looking at things like Land Speeders, would love to be prepared for change with a high mobility variant.

You gotta think what can you put in fast attack that’s actually gonna matter. At this moment, the softest targets are vanvets, which are way tougher than thibgs like land speeders for their points, easier to hide, larger numbers for objective holding and pack more punch. Most fast attack options won’t play the mission either.

I’ve played against all the lists you are talking about. Tabled both knights and chaos knights fairly easily. Table dark eldar pretty frequently. People have stopped taking that many boyz against me cause I’ve been able to kill 120 in two turns.

Dark eldar could have lots of alternate tech, but I’ve played against a dozen different ork lists and they’ve never had a chance. 120 boyz is already more than 1000 points that can’t even scratch you.

Good points.

I appreciate you for sharing the detailed insights into strategy. This kind of depth is rare these days. I can read your posts and picture the game playing out, it's very helpful.

My logic for Land Speeders is flow control, they get in the way of units that would be charging. That's really what I know them for, I'm traditionally a Chaos player and this is a tactic opponents have used against me. By breaking up a larger overall assault, destroying individual units becomes a simpler task.

But it sounds like this tactic is sub-optimal. Prior to NuMarines, my lists really struggled against IK / Drukarii / Orks, so compensating for them is still on my mind. I'm guessing you've already spelled out strategies against them, will read your other posts to get a better sense of what you've done there.

Really curious about how you tabled Knights. The specific combination of firepower didn't suggest to me that would be easy to do.

DeathwatchSH · May 29, 2021

Remember the hellblasters have malleus (reroll all against lord of war), +1 to hit and +1 to wound with beacon Angelis. Park the contemptor behind a obscuring ruin and teleport your hellblasters over too. You are often shooting through a one way street as they can’t see you across the obscuring terrain. If you use tome of estoclades on the contemptor then spend the 3CP and give him both ap1 and dark angels. You’ll do 14 wounds on average to a knight. Also you’ll find armiger die to everything in this army. S4 bolters woubding on 5s with reroll all, 5++ armor saves, power fists in melee, flamer overwatch, everything will kill them. A single sergeant with HTH can often kill one or bring it down to 4 wounds alone quite easily. In assault doctrine there won’t even be a save roll and LCs wound on 5s with full rerolls.

Also I did try 3x land speeders before and 2x once as well. It was ok, still beat the white scars player. However, I didn’t feel like it added much. What it really did was give my enemy sometbing to kill whereas before, there were no obvious targets. Land speeders were naturally shot by things with ap3/4 and decent strength. No save, insta dead. Just don’t know what I would want to give up to bring them.

Edited May 29, 2021 by DeathwatchSH

TheUnlikelyGamer84 · May 31, 2021

@deathwatchsh. I may have missed it but you are combat squadding the hellblasters and outriders correct?

DeathwatchSH · May 31, 2021

@deathwatchsh. I may have missed it but you are combat squadding the hellblasters and outriders correct?

Only the outrider squad ever combat squads

TheUnlikelyGamer84 · May 31, 2021

How are you typically using the tome of ectoclades against dark eldar?

Also look as though plasma inceptors and vanvets got a little more expensive. Wonder how that will change your list.

Edited May 31, 2021 by TheUnlikelyGamer84

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