Ultramarines VS. Sisters: Aggressive List (some pics)

[Prot]

Hello,

I've decided to try a quick batrep... I'm still playing frequently but haven't reported many games unfortunately but thought I'd try a really different list.

Basically my lists have been winning most match ups, but fall in the category of super boring. My most successful lists fall in the category of slow moving, 'castle' type blocks that try to own mid board. There no real focus on CC or Range. Instead they focus on the ability to just bounce off of what the opponent does and then commit to range or Cc and hide in buildings.

So this is a variant of a list to keep it more interesting. There is a lot of risk in this list, but it is flexible enough to press the table space, or remain conservative.

It looks like this:

- There's still some experimental stuff... mainly I'm down to trying one Gladiator. I still dislike the tanks immensely. I think you will be hard pressed to find a match up where they aren't removed too easily. Plus UM are just far better with infantry lists imo.

- It's hard to make out but there are 2 Invictor Warsuits. Combined with the Infiltrators, that is my aggressive force of forward pressure while the Redemptor follows suit.

- My opponent was Sisters of Battle. I just don't have time to go into great detail here other than to say it was a typical hard hitting list.... Dual Repential (MM's), Triple Tank (3D3 lascannon shots each, T8) and a few squads of Seraphim for that janky deep strike, and shoot melta at you strat.

- My opponent goes first and his first kill is... surprise... the Gladiator. Harder to hide and I couldn't expose my infantry to so many shots. I had at -1 to hit but it didn't matter.

I didn't show the SoB much but what he saw showed me he could really do some serious damage. The map we played used quarters deployment: Sweep and Clear.

- So I infiltrated my two Warsuits, and low and behold I got to use them for once... One survived a few shots from a Repentia melta squad, and got around an Obscurring ruin and started wrecking face.

- I knew this was a short term plan but the idea was to be super aggressive and my goal was to rack up points early, and see if I could ride it out. The secondaries I took were the mission specific one Direct Assault (hold mid), Oath (hold mid) and Domination (hold mid). As you can see there is a theme there. With all of these secondaries, holding the mid table gave me a third objective. My infiltrating units would die fast, but to start the game they would rob him of a few primary objectives. The longer I could hold out, the better.

- So round one scoring is going as I hoped... SoB score zero points; Engage, Raise Banners, and While We Stand (it's his 3 tanks so technically not scored yet). I end up with 10 points in round 1: Direct Assault 3 + Oath of Moment 4 + Domination 3.

- SoB immediately recognize what I'm doing and although they'd like to push back the middle table, the problem I've left him is that he has to get rid of two Warsuits and a squad of Infiltrators...and he easily does get rid of the Warsuits, but as a result he's stuck in his quarter and I get to further push outward to the mid table.

- This is mid table from my opponent's view... Calgar and the remaining ATV and Redemptor are still a threat. Eventually I get a good result from my gamble in turn 2 as a result: SoB score 1 on banners, 2 on engage, and while we stand.... I have scored 3 on Direct Assault, 4 on Oath again, and 3 on Domination but I had scored 15 on primaries.

With the game slipping away from SoB, he has destroyed all my Infiltrators. Somehow with Psychic Fortress I've managed to VERY luckily save the Redemptor dread with 6 wounds left. But I've lost a lot... I have a smattering of models left. He does try a charge with 2 walkers at mid table, but I did a combined overwatch and the Redemptor had full rerolls and over charged the Macroplasma which really punched hard and he never lived past that and the combined overwatch of the ATV Melta.

- Here is my last, late game charge....

- The partially repaired Redemptor and last 2 Bladeguard hit the Seraphim. My injured Victrix are in his zone pushing forward.

- SoB loses their 2nd Tank (removing 10 While We Stand points) and his third turn is a tough one. I fail to kill much and he fails to kill much since I'm hiding a lot of it and he can't shoot my characeters out of mid table.

- By the end of turn 3 I have almost nothing left, but he's struggled to get primary scoring this game and by the end of turn three the score is well out of control. I play out my half of T3 and it's going to end 81 - 33 points for the Ultra's.

++++++++++++++

So my experiment was a mixed bag. Yes it worked, but I had the right mission type (5 objectives) and a deployment that allowed me to be aggressive while boxing my opponent in a quarter. This worked heavily to my favour. I still lost a ton of models but the goal was to score early and it worked.

I still found it necessary to box out the mid table and play the school yard bully strat (as I call it) with Calgar. There are some armies this doesn't work at all... like DG for example, but as I mentioned the list was meant to be more able to hold back if necessary.

The SoB are one scary army when he had first turn I knew I'd lose some serious assets, but it did suck that I never got a shot off with the Gladiator again. The Primaris Tech Priest did a great job of keeping the Redemptor up. I have to say in this game he was the player of the game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Something different than what I typically see for Ultramarines and I like it.

[psyduck]

Love your commitment to making the Gladiator work. Also like the use of the invictors as a roadblock, but I'm surprised they survived that long.

 

Do you find ATVs super useful, as say, compared to an attack bike?

 

Also, did you mean retributors?

 

Looking forward to some games in a month or so

[Prot]

Love your commitment to making the Gladiator work. Also like the use of the invictors as a roadblock, but I'm surprised they survived that long.

 

Do you find ATVs super useful, as say, compared to an attack bike?

 

Also, did you mean retributors?

 

Looking forward to some games in a month or so

 

Thanks.. .yea Retributors; multi melta squads. (He had 2 and he took the trait that allowed him to hit on a 2+ once one died, and he could shoot on death on a 5+)

 

ATV's are horrid. Stick to Attack Bike squads. There's a lot of reasons for this, but mostly GW doesn't want to sell their newest Primaris Kits. ;) 

 

I'm being cheeky but it certainly feels like this; ATV's, Outriders, are both inferior to the first born. The Gladiators, Firestrike turrets, and the new terrain... all also fit in that category of don't use in competitive games.

 

The Invictors were key. I got tired of playing cagey 40K. I just felt if I plop those down with relatively fast units that can respond to the weak side, then it forces the opponent to deal with it immediately. I do this with my White Scars as well but in a very different way. I just felt the Invictors were the right unit for UM to do this. 

 

The Invictors lasted about 1.5 turns each... the one pictured in his zone on my T1 died in his T2. The other one I infiltrated in our 'blank' quarter where neither of us put anything. I kept it behind an Obscurred ruin because I knew he had 2 Seraphim squads loaded with melta pistols and that janky Strat. I knew he wanted to unload those units in my quarter, so I spaced out that second Warsuit, and 5 marines in that quarter behind the ruins.

 

Turn 3 that second warsuit made another sacrificial move to kill his second squad of retributors. Then he died to his second squad of Seraphim coming in on that quarter. 

 

It's a tricky 'trading game' with the Warsuits. I got the units dead I wanted dead... he was left with the 3 tanks to deal with my army at that point. (I'm glad those tanks are getting nerfed... they are just.. incredibly strong... I wish the Gladiator was that cheap/effective!)

 

Anyway, I would have to play more reps with it. 

 

Believe it or not, considering the speed, and spread this UM list has, I'm considering dumping the Gladiator for my Thunderstrike Speeder. Everything dies super fast so it doesn't matter toughness/ wounds in my mind. It's about speed, and how hard you hit. Competitively speaking, everything seems to die the second its exposed in 9th. 

 

I've been using the Thunderstrike in my White Scars and it's grown on me. But then again it is the cost of another Redemptor and they are just about the most useful vehicles in 9th for marines in my opinion.

[NKirkham24]

I’m glad you gave the Techmarine and the Invictors another chance. I find the at least one Invictors and Infiltrators/Incursors as forward aggressive units really help us, they can take on or tie up certain things and give us the breathing space to push on to the mid board.

 

I also run two Redemptor, but I don’t currently have a Stormstrike, so I’d be interesting to hear how it works out for you.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Prot is very interesting you can use what you’ve learnt from playing White Scars to apply it to Ultramarines. One thing I do know is that we are a lot better in close combat than most realize.

 

I definitely think there’s a lot more value in the Thunderstrike - give it a go !

Edited April 8, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Prot]

I’m glad you gave the Techmarine and the Invictors another chance. I find the at least one Invictors and Infiltrators/Incursors as forward aggressive units really help us, they can take on or tie up certain things and give us the breathing space to push on to the mid board.

 

I also run two Redemptor, but I don’t currently have a Stormstrike, so I’d be interesting to hear how it works out for you.

 

 

Well I've tried 3 Redemptors. 2 Redemptors and 1 Redemptor +2 Warsuits (this game). I'm finding the Redemptor is a good anchor and you pay just a little more for the excellent resiliency factor. With the Warsuits many think of them as over priced. Perhaps they should go down a few points, but they do have a very handy ability in the right maps/match up to forward deploy. They do hit hard... but they do feel like paper in 9th. That T6 and lack of damage mitigation does seem to make them lesser candidates for Techmarine repair duty.

 

The Stormstrike I've run serveral times in my White Scars. The thing is it's on a high stand. That's the thing I noticed as soon as I started putting it together. If it's not on a table with some good LoS blocking Obscuring ruins.... it's in big trouble. 

 

What it does well is shoot through cover (BS2) and it's VERY good at reacting to threats that Ultra's typically have a problem getting to. (My best game with it was using my White Scars vs Blood Angels who have a very aggressive secondary that gives them points for being in your deploy zone. The Speeder was key in zooming away from a deep strike squad of assault termies, but kiting them across the board with las/missiles to clean out the squad.)

 

Prot is very interesting you can use what you’ve learnt from playing White Scars to apply it to Ultramarines. One thing I do know is that we are a lot better in close combat than most realize.

 

I definitely think there’s a lot more value in the Thunderstrike - give it a go !

 

 

Thanks. I kept thinking of a few problems I was having;

1. Why am I having much more success with my White Scars over UM (even in close games and victories?)

 

2. Does playing purely to the Ultramarine strengths mean I will always struggle with board control and against armies that move better than I do?

 

In the case of playing White Scars, they have been brought down quite a bit since all the new codexes came out. There are wicked bad match ups for them now. So ironically I had to look at my Ultramarines and borrow from those tactics and unit choices to improve my WS. The UM are just doing the same thing... using stuff that worked with White Scars to help resolve my 2 big issues above.

 

I still win more convincingly with WS, and lose by less. I think I experiment a lot more with my Ultra's, and I have trouble adopting some units for my UM that the Scars just use SO much better... (units like assault intercessors, and anything that advances with assault weapons... even Vanguard Claw/Shield vets are fantastic with Scars and just mediocre with UM.)

 

The Thunderstrike will drop into this list for my next experiment. I've had it with the Gladiator experiment for a while. It's been a total bust, and the Thunderstrike is a decent, cheaper, quicker replacement. (Truthfully neither will last more than 2 turns against a good opponent.)

 

Thanks for checking out the games. 

 

I had one lined up for last night but had a last minute cancelation. Hopefully I'll get the Thunderstrike in soon.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My game plan is to score 15 points on primary turns 4 and 5 plus whatever I can scrape up the first three turns. My list is tuned for counter assault so I love to play against meleecentric armies. I played heavy assault last edition and finally got tired of it. The speed of the Scars is a big deal which we tend to lack. It is good to be able to transfer tactics between lists for sure.

[Ulfast]

Thanks for another very intersting and tactical battle report Prot.

[_Valten_]

Great report as always Prot.

 

Have you thought about using Plasma Inceptors instead of a speeder? Granted they don’t have quite the firepower a speeder does but they’re arguably more resilient with strat support and the fact they’re infantry. They also gain the benefit of being Core.

[Captain Idaho]

It's interesting to bring up, but I think the problem you're having with performance of Ultramarines vs White Scars is what you mentioned - playing purely to an army's strength.

 

So much of competitive 40K is done by the numbers which means maximising the positives and minimising the negatives. Yet, even in 8th edition, I found great success from my Ultramarines by using more rounded forces that included units which don't benefit directly from the main list of Ultramarines rules.

 

Vanguard Veterans and tanks are things that don't much enjoy the limelight in many people's eyes because they don't shine in the Tactical Doctrine for Ultramarines. However, the way I play it, the utility and capability these types of units give me allows my other more "Ultramarine" style units to shine.

 

Even without special rules from Chapter Tactics, 10 Vanguard Veterans are going to cause problems for anything they hit, whilst a Dreadnought or 2 will enjoying you having a Predator and Razorback supporting the army.

 

These are just examples of course and personal preference may vary. But yes, totally, add some Vanguard into your lists. If you're trying to make Gladiators work, I say add a Predator and Razorback to the list or several Dreadnoughts will help a heap.

[space wolf]

Thanks for the batrep and discussion guys...this is giving me a lot to think about as far as model selection goes. :)

[Prot]

It's interesting to bring up, but I think the problem you're having with performance of Ultramarines vs White Scars is what you mentioned - playing purely to an army's strength.

 

So much of competitive 40K is done by the numbers which means maximising the positives and minimising the negatives. 

 

Vanguard Veterans and tanks are things that don't much enjoy the limelight in many people's eyes because they don't shine in the Tactical Doctrine for Ultramarines. However, the way I play it, the utility and capability these types of units give me allows my other more "Ultramarine" style units to shine.

 

 

 

 

I guess we have a slightly different approach on this. I'd respond to this by telling you to try your UM forces, in game, at least... let's say... 5 games as White Scars (or anything you think would be a cool departure with a unique set of maximizing certain traits you like.)

 

What you're going to find is a unit like... Vanguard to use your example, is far better. So much better as a White Scar you'll see that it's extremely hard to see the value in using it as a different legion unless that legion also leverages a similar mechanism.

 

When a UM's Vanguards are met with a WS's Vanguards.... there's very few 'all things being equal' situations where the UM will win out. There's just too much missing from the arsenal.  And it's multi layered. It's more than rerolls and Doctrines. It's a multi layered effect.

 

So to go a step further, you take this approach and you apply it army wide. 

 

Note that everything I am saying is directly from my in game, playing, experiences in 9th. I'm not guessing at any of this. It is also 100% purely from a very competitive angle because I'd say anyone from any marine codex can generally improve their force by adding something like "vanguard".

 

I think this is why Ultramarines are not fairing so well these days. I predicted, and still believe that within the next 5-6 codexes you'll hardly see any "Codex Space Marines" contend at a tournament. Unless..... that's when significant changes drop or even we see the much needed Supplements come back.

 

I put White Scars in this category too. Death Guard shut down their super doctrine and speed by their mere base rules. Now with  Dark Eldar new rules now in play at tournaments, I've seen White Scars armies basically shut down in a turn. (I have a friend with a very large DE force that wants some games against me. Can't wait for that! (I sure hope they fix that stupidly broken Succubus by then.))

 

That's just me though.... I don't expect/want anyone to agree. Just being honest about where I feel things are right now. The days of people moaning about the "OP Apothecary" will feel really silly in about 3 months.

 

 

Great report as always Prot.

 

Have you thought about using Plasma Inceptors instead of a speeder? Granted they don’t have quite the firepower a speeder does but they’re arguably more resilient with strat support and the fact they’re infantry. They also gain the benefit of being Core.

 

Thanks Valten! Yes I used Plasma Inceptors a ton... probably 90% of my UM games, but I just prefer stronger damage as the game has evolved. There are - damage mechanisms and armies like... Death Guard that just really turn me off of the unit as well as its point cost.

 

I know they are good... very good. And I know they are still being toted in marine armies at tournaments as we speak. I just got bored of them and actually don't value them as much as... let's say a unit of melta Eradicators in Strategic Reserves. But they are still plenty competitive.

 

Again, since I try to maximize based on the units and the army it's my belief that no one does Eradicators better than UM. (I say this even with Sallies having a strong foot hold on melta) For me its the turn 3 doctrine + the Multimelta gun access + the squad special rule. Coming out of reserves with a small foot print and that much firepower is really good value for UM in my opinion. MUCH better than any tank.

 

+edit+ Just reading my response to Idaho... I realize it sounds pretty negative. I think this is just the result of having the 'internet' and even locals tell me how incredibly OP marines are, and I kept reminding them that we were the only codex out (until Necrons).

 

I think that just rubbed off on me. For months I counter argued the premise based on the fact that 9th edition (unlike 8th) seems to be in a crazy escalation war with nearly every codex released. 

 

As a result I put away my marines for extended breaks to play other factions and still won a lot... I think a lot of complaining just has jaded me, and now I look at what I always believed would happen, and I see a weird place for marines in the next few months.

 

My apologies for coming off so negative.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Prot

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Thanks for the batrep and discussion guys...this is giving me a lot to think about as far as model selection goes. :)

What I find my friend is your list must be finely tuned now and there is not fat - the best lists everything synergies. This is why I don’t run VV or BG for my lists.

[Mordas]

Oh yes, that Succubus hits like a train...

 

Will be interesting to see what we get when our supplement drops. But I feel that lists need to be well balanced with a good amount of shooting and melee to take on the Drukhari. Still getting my head around the DG though.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Shooting is what we do the best.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Proty:

 

Yes I agree that performance of Vanguard etc is head and shoulders above that of Ultramarines in White Scars lists, or BA for that matter etc, but I must say that the performance of Vanguard in Ultramarines lists is still sufficient to do the job.

 

That's not to say top flight competitive lists might be better served with something other than Vanguard, you definitely operate at high end gaming.

 

And of course the power creep is evident. My Necrons don't need to be told for sure.

 

:)