I'm beginning to feel like we got a little screwed ....

[Blindhamster]

The issue may be the fact that a lot of the books to get updates (DA, DG and DE) all have hard counters to BA that make them play as marines without their benefits really intact. It's a pattern that is emerging is all.

 

Also, Eradicators are almost certain to get nerfed hard in the next big update IMO.

[Xenith]

I mean put a couple of squads of eradicators, a whirlwind and 30 sang guard most armies are having a bad day

 

Well, that's exactly what I'm saying - BA only have a couple of decently competitive units, SG, Priest +/- Libby Dread, and their Chapter Tactics aren't as strong as they were. Even among the units you list, 2 of those unit types dont rely on BA bonuses, and the other is spamming one of the best units we have (presumably meaning it'll get a nerf).

 

It's exactly as you say, 9th ed codexes crush 8th ed codexes [sisters, harlies and daemons excluded], so BA were only in a great position when they were pretty much the omly chapter with a 9th ed codex.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I mean put a couple of squads of eradicators, a whirlwind and 30 sang guard most armies are having a bad day

if you're playing a game with a point limit that allows you to do that...

[Helias_Tancred]

I think Blindhamster hit the nail on the head! There are patterns and we're seeing a continuance of it. At this point I wouldn't mind our codex coming out mid rules edition ;) ... or get us someone that is a champion of our chapter on the writing/rules team.

[Morticon]

Blood Angels Back on Top ->

 

 https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/04/warhammer-40k-top-list-of-the-week-blood-angels-back-on-top.html

 

It's not all bad, gents. 

[The Unseen]

The constant spamming of 30 Sanguinary Guard is just going to see them get smacked with a pts increase and then the whole slew of lists that look exactly like this are dead in the water.

 

Also, that list just straight up loses to a competent DG player.

Like, don't even roll dice level of autolose. The aura of "don't count as charging" may as well say "don't play melee marines into this", and it's all over the meta.

 

And the new Drukhari also probably take it apart with their excessive amounts of fight last and melee damage.

 

And a DA termi list can also bully it and take its lunch money, though much more player dependant.

 

So I'm going to say it changes nothing.

And since it's anonymous, we don't even know how big the playing field was, or what it fought.

 

Just guessing, but player was obviously very good, but also never ran into lists poised to exploit some of the lists very obvious weaknesses.

Edited April 16, 2021 by The Unseen

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The constant spamming of 30 Sanguinary Guard is just going to see them get smacked with a pts increase and then the whole slew of lists that look exactly like this are dead in the water.

 

Also, that list just straight up loses to a competent DG player.

Like, don't even roll dice level of autolose. The aura of "don't count as charging" may as well say "don't play melee marines into this", and it's all over the meta.

 

And the new Drukhari also probably take it apart with their excessive amounts of fight last and melee damage.

 

And a DA termi list can also bully it and take its lunch money, though much more player dependant.

 

So I'm going to say it changes nothing.

And since it's anonymous, we don't even know how big the playing field was, or what it fought.

 

Just guessing, but player was obviously very good, but also never ran into lists poised to exploit some of the lists very obvious weaknesses.

i know fluff and game are hugely separate, but i don't think 30 SG should even be possible in a single chapter army.

sure i guess an easy work around would be just claim the extra 5 are from a successor lol, but if there's only 25 in lore, you shouldn't be able to do 30 in game.

[Helias_Tancred]

Yeah. I could not in good faith run more Sanguinary Guard than the Blood Angels currently have. Burt thats me.

*but

[Xenith]

Yea, we seem to be back in 8th ed with one super unit (in 8th it was Slamguinius) that defines the competitive BA Meta, and then which gets slammed by GW. 

 

I do not believe that SG are overpowered at their price point, just that they become very good when in assault doctrine, and it's easy to get 3 units into assault doctrine in T2. 

 

Just because we have one strong option in the codex is a sign that other stuff should be made stronger, however it's easier to nerf the SG - presumably with a 5pt hike. 

[Morticon]

Only 23 in that list, to be fair.

The constant spamming of 30 Sanguinary Guard is just going to see them get smacked with a pts increase and then the whole slew of lists that look exactly like this are dead in the water.

Also, that list just straight up loses to a competent DG player.
Like, don't even roll dice level of autolose. The aura of "don't count as charging" may as well say "don't play melee marines into this", and it's all over the meta.

And the new Drukhari also probably take it apart with their excessive amounts of fight last and melee damage.

And a DA termi list can also bully it and take its lunch money, though much more player dependant.

So I'm going to say it changes nothing.
And since it's anonymous, we don't even know how big the playing field was, or what it fought.

Just guessing, but player was obviously very good, but also never ran into lists poised to exploit some of the lists very obvious weaknesses.

 

The player was anon- the event size is known, I believe. 

[Blindhamster]

Blood Angels Back on Top ->

 

 https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/04/warhammer-40k-top-list-of-the-week-blood-angels-back-on-top.html

 

It's not all bad, gents. 

meh, its just a sanguinary guard spam list... WITH eradicators. Of course that'll do well. It's also entirely unimaginative and boring.

 

also totally agree with others, it shouldn't even be possible to field that many SG because we literally don't have that many in the chapter.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Blindhamster

[Hintzy]

It was Junior Aflleje's list at the Dicehammer GT, I believe. 40 players.

 

Edit: Comic Quest GT at Dicehammer.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-ratcon-2021-comic-quest-gt/

Edited April 16, 2021 by Hintzy

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Um...they made the DE codex just to :cuss us I think

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G1xJZNrZeog

 

 

Blood Angels Back on Top ->

 

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/04/warhammer-40k-top-list-of-the-week-blood-angels-back-on-top.html

 

It's not all bad, gents.

meh, its just a sanguinary guard spam list... WITH eradicators. Of course that'll do well. It's also entirely unimaginative and boring.

 

also totally agree with others, it shouldn't even be possible to field that many SG because we literally don't have that many in the chapter.

i don't think competitive players particularly care if theyre using an unimaginative and boring list.

[Morticon]

There's a disconcerting double standard here. 

 

While I get that the gold standard for an army should be the ability to create a fluffy and highly competitive list, it's often not the case - and in fact, this is massively rare for codicies from GW. 

 

In fact, i'd go so far as to say that over the years, what's competitive for an army often rebrands what's considered fluffy.  

 

We cant say BA are being left in the dust when we're purposefully neutering ourselves and imposing personal based restrictions. 

 

I will go as far as to say that I admit that the DA, DG and DE books - and now Admech  DO in fact look more powerful on the whole- but that's not to say we're not competitive. If we're going to self-restrict on a variety of fronts, how can we hope to do well in a tough environment?   That being said, I dont believe the build above is anywhere near the strongest.  But, we can take elements from it, for sure. 

[Tokugawa]

GW could define "which style an army would fight with" through rules. If an subfaction have many upgrades on melee but few on shooting, an army list of this faction would of course have multiple melee units, and only the best shooting units could be included.

 

 

In fact, most current DA/DG/drukari tournament lists are all very "fluffy". A 2020 DG list featuring 9 undercosted MBHs is "unfluffy" and just abuse of balancing failures. But a 2021 DG list taking elite marines and cannon folder zombies is very fluffy.

[jeremy1391]

Blood angels are still pretty damn powerful! Always bring a whirlwind so you can make a scary enemy unit have super fight last so even if your hammer unit gets “fight last”you will still go first. And the DG character that makes you not count as charging just stay away from him, he can’t be everywhere so be everywhere else.

[Djangomatic82]

I think my gripe is the rules in supplement BA don't do enought to make the rest of our army feel like we are playing something different from a vanilla codex space marine army. I mean, each other first born chapter has a 8e supplement or codex that heavily shifts the focus of their army to a particular style. We have the basic Codex strats, SG, DC, some powers and the character upgrade strats. Most every other strat and unit is either out right bad or outshone in it's supposed role by a basic B unit from the SM Codex.

[Spagunk]

My favorite strat is the one that Dante gets for free (Epic Deeds) but there's only really one that applies to him. So thanks for the free "All eyes on me" strat I guess? And yes, I know the "fight after dying" is another strat he can use but honestly that's very much a "you already lost" clutch move.

[Djangomatic82]

My favorite strat is the one that Dante gets for free (Epic Deeds) but there's only really one that applies to him. So thanks for the free "All eyes on me" strat I guess? And yes, I know the "fight after dying" is another strat he can use but honestly that's very much a "you already lost" clutch move.

Yeah, both epic deeds strat's that apply to him almost or explicitly require him to die. I kinda get that the rules writer wanted to show off his epic heroic last stand pathology, but being forced to sacrifice a 175 point model for that ability is super feels bads and a restriction no other faction figure head has to put up with.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think my gripe is the rules in supplement BA don't do enought to make the rest of our army feel like we are playing something different from a vanilla codex space marine army. I mean, each other first born chapter has a 8e supplement or codex that heavily shifts the focus of their army to a particular style. We have the basic Codex strats, SG, DC, some powers and the character upgrade strats. Most every other strat and unit is either out right bad or outshone in it's supposed role by a basic B unit from the SM Codex.

Too be fair we're not all that different from normal marines.

We just like melee and jump packs a bit more. We have a specialized body guard unit, and some crazy bois, but otherwise we are a codex compliant chapter.

Compare that to SW and BT for example who seriously depart from the codex.

 

The only thing that id like to see is assault squads as troops for us

Edited May 5, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Helias_Tancred]

Given what I've seen with Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, and now AdMech (patterns emerging) .... the nerfing of our chapter stratagems was not needed; Descent of Angels should have transferred verbatim, it was very strong, and very fluffy for us. Ditto for Red Rampage, and Upon Wings of Fire.

[Rhavien]

What I also miss is the heroic intervention strat for all BA infantry that has changed to be sang guard exclusive. That was really something unique.

[smileyjim]

BA are very strong but its about timing. They are fast hard hitting army, you choose when to hit and have to make sure you trade the best possible way, using speed to do that. If you don't you crumble and that's how it SHOULD be. Think about it, BA are like the sons of horus, they win by decapitation and precision strike.

 

I mean do you want to play an army like dark angels? Just sit on a point and win through your opponent dying of boredom?

 

BA are fluffy and competitive so even with a super fluffy list your still scary. From some of the comments it's like you guys think your playing orks, tau or eldar in terms of power comparison.

 

Also remember given its GW, SM will probably be the only faction with a second release codex so we will probably have some ridiculous crap like apothecaries resing dreads to full health and other such wonders.