An Even Newer Celestian

[Banjulhu]

How to make Celestians better?

Ignore them and take the Celestian Sacresants instead.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

That's a beautiful model, but the cable should be removed from the power halberd, as it would snag on the enemy's broken armor when the blade is used, likely disabling the power weapon's disruption field generator.

[MagicHat]

I love everything except that weird unicorn helmet.

 

I will love it even more if the shield is made so she can 2-grip the halberd. (Actually... The shield should probably have been a smaller kite shield.)

[dracpanzer]

Love the unit. I'll be converting my own from metal caniness and retributor models with Bretonnian grail shields.

 

Put about five paragraphs about just such a unit in my betadex review email.

 

Dex seems to be coming soon eh?

[ATPete]

 I actually like the fairly flat shield surface, more area to put knightly looking heraldry on it. The more I've painted my Argent Shroud sisters the more I've thought of them as a space knightly order, it fits the setting and the sisters armour matches p[late armour much better than Space Marines do.

 

 Also pretty happy that they mentioned maces in the article, I've been thinking what sort of close combat unit I'd want for sisters to complement the repentia and some sort of shield & mace combo has been in my head for a while as sisters seem to use maces (not actually mauls) more often than other factions, and beat sticks are a good weapon for good old fashioned bashing things in.

[excelite]

Dex seems to be coming soon eh?

I wouldn’t expect it anytime soon, this would destroy the marketing/ Hype buildup behind the sisters bulletin and multiple mentions of „more to come“...

[toaae]

The shield is actually perfect for my order. It looks like it would be home as the lid of a sarcophagus, and my order draws their colors from the jewels inlaid in the sarcophagus of the titular Penitent Saint. 

I'm also not big on the horned helmet, but I've got loads of extra Celestian heads from the BSS kit, so that's a non-issue. I'll take 30 of these, please.

[Aqui]

I'll be able to make a (Mercy) Celestine, (Pharah) Seraphim and a (Brigette) Celestian Sacresant now (if I use a mace) :lol:

 

But seriously, it's beyond time that Celestians got better options, albeit a variant.

 

And there's more still to come...apparently.

[ValourousHeart]

 

Dex seems to be coming soon eh?

I wouldn’t expect it anytime soon, this would destroy the marketing/ Hype buildup behind the sisters bulletin and multiple mentions of „more to come“...

 

Well sisters are at best 3rd in line of the next 40k codex releases, so still plenty of time for GW to reveal more.

So I'm expecting this to be the last big splash release of 2021, right before they switch over to the holiday releases.

That is "soon" in my book.

 

 

The shield is actually perfect for my order. It looks like it would be home as the lid of a sarcophagus, and my order draws their colors from the jewels inlaid in the sarcophagus of the titular Penitent Saint. 

 

I'm also not big on the horned helmet, but I've got loads of extra Celestian heads from the BSS kit, so that's a non-issue. I'll take 30 of these, please.

 

Hopefully this turns out to be like the Exorcist, where GW put the dumbest helmet option on the box art.  But had a couple alternate heads in the box that were great.

 

Plus GW usually provides quite a few extra heads in the kits.  I think the troop box had about 20 heads and the Ret box had about 10.

[Indefragable]

I know 40k and realism are not two things that should often go in the same sentence, but after much thought and deliberation, I like that she has a halberd. 

 

My initial thought was that it was it seemed too "heavy" for the SoB (similar to my much-criticized critique of the Castigator in another thread), but in this case it actually makes sense. Halberds were historically the sort of "anti-tank" weapon of infantry (where "tank" was "plate-armored knights"). Their design, size, length, etc... was all meant to do <insert physics and kinesiology here) to achieve a disproportionately large amount of force to the target to actually penetrate the heavy armor. It actually makes sense for SoB to use a sort of equivalent to achieve a similar effect against the transhuman, gene-enhanced, up-daemoned, brutish, etc.... foes they face. It's actually a rather simple and elegant way of making SoB do "heavy" melee damage without just giving them thunder hammers.

 

TL;DR: I dig it.

 

From a rules perspective I have been thinking for a while how it would be cool if Celestians could all take chainswords or power weapons, but hey, this works I guess. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Indefragable

[march10k]

Love the model, hate the idea of tanky heavy infantry for sisters.  About as much as I hate them having a proper battle tank.  Both are symptoms of a growing problem in the game.  What's next, a horde unit for the knight houses?  melee battlesuits for tau?  Ugh.  Soon enough, every codex will have every type of unit.

Edited April 12, 2021 by march10k

[ThePenitentOne]

I agree that these models are cool enough to act as a disincentive to field vanilla Celestians, so I wonder if/how GW will mitigate that.

 

One way might by points- that's the obvious go-to solution. But another is more gamey and abstract: shields are likely to provide invuls, just like marine shields do. This is a cumbersome choice for a unit with a body guard ability, because those abilities allow the soldier to protect their charge against snipers who ignore look out sir, but the trade-off is that the soldier has to take a mortal wound to do it, which would slice right through the sexy invul provided by the shield.

 

So maybe these particular Celestians don't get the bodyguard ability. Their purpose is to travel with vanilla Celestians to tank the typical threats to keep the actual bodyguards around so that they can sacrifice themselves vs. sniper fire.

 

Funny, I didn't even notice the helmet until you mentioned it; I like it! I'm also one of the few weirdos who really likes the exorcist head, and I wish I could buy 5 of them to make a really unique looking little specialist unit. Buying 5 exorcist kits to get enough of those heads is just not an option.

 

Anyway, this might be my favourite of the previewed units so far. Can't wait until the next Sister bulletin- shocked that there are going to be even more than the five kits we've already seen.

 

GW, you really are living up to your promise to keep supporting this army! 

 

You have rewarded my faith and persistence by providing another generation of Martyrs and Saints to make manifest the will of the divine Emperor.

 

And I will reward you with a freaking mountain of cash.

 

Fair deal.

 

Love the model, hate the idea of tanky heavy infantry for sisters.  About as much as I hate them having a proper battle tank.  Both are symptoms of a growing problem in the game.  What's next, a horde unit for the knight houses?  melee battlesuits for tau?  Ugh.  Soon enough, every codex will have every type of unit.

 

This came in while I wrote my post, and I had to respond.

 

I get where you are coming from- I was once content to have 1/3 the number of units available to SM players because I allowed myself to think this way. I'm not sure I am content to do that anymore... In fact, I'm sure that I'm not.

 

The GW webstore list 117 products for generic space Marines. If I ever get that many options, I'll start wondering whether or not any given sister kit is extraneous. I look especially forward to having 8 plastic aircraft to choose from.

 

They whole "You don't get as many options as Marine players because that's your army's identity" has always been my biggest complaint with this game.  Only 77 more sisters kits are needed now. Well, then DE need another 70 or so kits too, but I'm willing to cut GW some slack and give them credit for the six new units their dex created (master HQ's + Favoured Retinues) even if we didn't get models for them- hopefully we will, but in the meantime, I will enjoy converting them and sending GW pictures to prove there's interest.

 

This game will never be more than "Marines plus a bunch of other stuff that isn't really important" until every non-marine player realizes that being a second class army with far fewer options is not a static, defining characteristic of their faction.

 

And for the record, yes, I do know that no faction ever will have more kits to choose from than marines; I'm just saying that every model that gets us closer is a good thing because you can always choose not to buy it if it doesn't fit your head cannon, and I'm trying to convince people to unlearn that it's okay to be a have-not faction because fluff.

Edited April 12, 2021 by ThePenitentOne

[MagicHat]

 

One way might by points- that's the obvious go-to solution. But another is more gamey and abstract: shields are likely to provide invuls, just like marine shields do. This is a cumbersome choice for a unit with a body guard ability, because those abilities allow the soldier to protect their charge against snipers who ignore look out sir, but the trade-off is that the soldier has to take a mortal wound to do it, which would slice right through the sexy invul provided by the shield.

 

So maybe these particular Celestians don't get the bodyguard ability. Their purpose is to travel with vanilla Celestians to tank the typical threats to keep the actual bodyguards around so that they can sacrifice themselves vs. sniper fire.

 

It is a shield with a bolt pistol, so probably a combat shield. 5++, +1 armour save.

The article calls them bodyguards as well in lore, although that does not mean it is true in game terms.

Using them as bodyguards when they will likely be 8-10 points more then celestians might hurt though.

 

 

Funny, I didn't even notice the helmet until you mentioned it; I like it! I'm also one of the few weirdos who really likes the exorcist head, and I wish I could buy 5 of them to make a really unique looking little specialist unit. Buying 5 exorcist kits to get enough of those heads is just not an option.

 

 

No, no. It is everyone else that are weirdos. The Exorcist helmet is peak fashion.

This helmet is just odd though. They took the celestian fleur and moved it further up. If they had just take the celestian helmet and made the fleur bigger, so it encapsulated the eyes, I would have loved it.

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 

 

No, no. It is everyone else that are weirdos. The Exorcist helmet is peak fashion.

This helmet is just odd though. They took the celestian fleur and moved it further up. If they had just take the celestian helmet and made the fleur bigger, so it encapsulated the eyes, I would have loved it.

 

 

Ooh... If I was good enough at greenstuff, I'd try to build that helmet myself- really cool idea.

[march10k]

 I was once content to have 1/3 the number of units available to SM players because I allowed myself to think this way. 

 

It's not about the simple number of different units/kits.  It's about how drab the game gets when you have the same statlines and special rules no matter what army you play.  It's going to be a pretty boring game when every codex has terminators, bikes, tanks, etc.  It will literally have become axis&allies.  The game was way cooler when you have to choose between 10-20 T3 BS3 WS4 sisters or 5-10 T4 BS3 WS3 brothers for your (mandatory) troops choices. 

 

I wasn't really content with what we had before, either.  The differences among battle sisters, celestians, and dominions were nearly negligible.  I love a lot of our new units.  Alternate jumpers that play very differently from seraphim are great.  Most of the new support characters are great.  Really, it's just two models that I see as "wrong," the predator ripoff and these halberdiers.  They fill gaps in our capabilities that I was quite content to offset with strength in other areas.  I think it's a GOOD thing for armies to have unique strengths and weaknesses.  I don't want those gaps filled. It's what makes the game interesting.  Tau and IG with credible melee options would ruin the game, and that's the direction things are heading.  This isn't a rant against new units or more units, it's a rant against the homogenization of 40k codex options.

[War Angel]

 

No, no. It is everyone else that are weirdos. The Exorcist helmet is peak fashion.

This helmet is just odd though. They took the celestian fleur and moved it further up. If they had just take the celestian helmet and made the fleur bigger, so it encapsulated the eyes, I would have loved it.

 

Ooh... If I was good enough at greenstuff, I'd try to build that helmet myself- really cool idea.

Hmmmmmmm..... got me wondering.

 

Predator ripoff? That thing may have the same body, but so does every other sisters tank or APC, and every old Marine tank bar the land raiders. Also, it’s a main battle tank, while the predator is a light tank.

 

The paragon warsuits may be similar to terminators, but they won’t be terminators, they won’t have the same stat line, and they won’t be supported by the same ability’s and faction traits. They’re may be some similarities but it won’t be the same. Terminators can’t guarantee a charge with Miracle dice.

 

Look at Bullgryns, they’re the guards verson of terminators, yet still completely different. Every faction is going to have units that have similarities, but still function differently, and at different levels of power. Or should Tau not have battle suits because space marines had dreads first?

Edited April 13, 2021 by War Angel

[Montford]

One thing I really like about this model is the cut-out fleur-de-lys on the axe blade of the halberd. That looks great!

 

I will probably swap the head for a standard Celestian's head.

 

I remember w-a-a-y back in the 90's when I had some WHF Imperial Infantry that had a halberd and shield; I thought "No way is this a thing" and trimmed the axe head and back hook off so that it looked like he had a spear and so was more 'realistic'.

 

I am a lot more chill these days and I won't be doing that with this Sister.

[MagicHat]

One thing I really like about this model is the cut-out fleur-de-lys on the axe blade of the halberd. That looks great!

 

I will probably swap the head for a standard Celestian's head.

 

I remember w-a-a-y back in the 90's when I had some WHF Imperial Infantry that had a halberd and shield; I thought "No way is this a thing" and trimmed the axe head and back hook off so that it looked like he had a spear and so was more 'realistic'.

 

I am a lot more chill these days and I won't be doing that with this Sister.

 

There is medieval artwork of soldiers with polearms and shields. They might have carried to protect from arrowfire and then discarded/slinged it on their back and started chopping, which is how the WHF rules worked.

[Lord Raven 19]

I'd like to see behind that shield, with the BP there, it doesn't look like there'll be room for the arm. What do you think?

[War Angel]

I think the design of the shield is meant to be a casket lid?

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 

I wasn't really content with what we had before, either.  The differences among battle sisters, celestians, and dominions were nearly negligible.  I love a lot of our new units.  Alternate jumpers that play very differently from seraphim are great.  Most of the new support characters are great.  Really, it's just two models that I see as "wrong," the predator ripoff and these halberdiers.  They fill gaps in our capabilities that I was quite content to offset with strength in other areas.  I think it's a GOOD thing for armies to have unique strengths and weaknesses.  I don't want those gaps filled. It's what makes the game interesting.  Tau and IG with credible melee options would ruin the game, and that's the direction things are heading.  This isn't a rant against new units or more units, it's a rant against the homogenization of 40k codex options.

 

 

Great clarification here- glad to know that you do like most of the new stuff. Similarly, I could be content with the absence of the two units which are problematic for you, as long as GW provided something else to ensure that the range was continuing to grow. I like both of the units that you don't but not so much that something equal but different wouldn't fit the bill.

 

I have, however, wanted Celestians with shields and CC weapons since 2003, especially for OoOML, whose Matriarch, Saint Katherine, was described as Alicia Dominica's Shieldbearer- a piece of old fluff upon which GW chose to double down on rather than retcon as evidenced by the Relic carried by OoOML's representative in the Triumph. Fluff absolutely has been there for two decades or more- I think the Shieldbearer designation goes back to the 2n ed Dex.

 

I would also point out that they won't duplicate the statlines or effects of other armies- they will be a uniquely sisters twist on CC infantry, but I think War Angel beat me to the punch:

 

 

Predator ripoff? That thing may have the same body, but so does every other sisters tank or APC, and every old Marine tank bar the land raiders. Also, it’s a main battle tank, while the predator is a light tank.

 

The paragon warsuits may be similar to terminators, but they won’t be terminators, they won’t have the same stat line, and they won’t be supported by the same ability’s and faction traits. They’re may be some similarities but it won’t be the same. Terminators can’t guarantee a charge with Miracle dice.

 

Look at Bullgryns, they’re the guards verson of terminators, yet still completely different. Every faction is going to have units that have similarities, but still function differently, and at different levels of power. Or should Tau not have battle suits because space marines had dreads first?

 

 

The one thing I will say to Frater War Angel though is that Paragons will have more stats and rules in common with both Penitent Engines and Mortifiers than Terminators. They will STILL feel unique compared to those units because they will still have <Order> and AoF as well as a different selection for load out, so your point is still valid.

 

 

 

There is medieval artwork of soldiers with polearms and shields. They might have carried to protect from arrowfire and then discarded/slinged it on their back and started chopping, which is how the WHF rules worked.

 

 

I need to watch the Stained Glass cuts from the preview vids to see if these hints were there. Plus the Chaos enemies in the Stained Glass got me thinking about the wave of chaos hype that will follow Be'Lakor...

 

I'd like to see behind that shield, with the BP there, it doesn't look like there'll be room for the arm. What do you think?

 

Me too! I want to be able to engage in speculation about the possibility for posing the models- particularly, whether or not there's away to wield the pole arm two handed without losing the pistol-shield. The pic we have doesn't provide enough information to speculate.

[Atrus]

I like the move away from the boring sword and board routine. The pike/halberd/whatever is unique.

The shield is a bit plain for my tastes. I saw a picture somewhere someone did of the shield having a more stained glass look/sections and it worked for me.

 

Probably another elite for our over crowded elite section, but...dare I say, it's an elite I would actually put in.

Hopefully if they get the bodyguard rule, GW fixes it.

[ValourousHeart]

Love the model, hate the idea of tanky heavy infantry for sisters.  About as much as I hate them having a proper battle tank.  Both are symptoms of a growing problem in the game.  What's next, a horde unit for the knight houses?  melee battlesuits for tau?  Ugh.  Soon enough, every codex will have every type of unit.

 

I think if you view units in a reductive way you will always find the party roles.  Tanks, Healers, Disruption, and DPS units.

 

But Saraphim are not the same as Assault Marines.  Retributors are not the same as Devistators.

 

Take Repentia for example.  Some aspects about Repentia are similar to Assault Marines, Terminators and Scouts.  But for the most part Repentia are nothing like any of those units.

[Montford]

 

One thing I really like about this model is the cut-out fleur-de-lys on the axe blade of the halberd. That looks great!

 

I will probably swap the head for a standard Celestian's head.

 

I remember w-a-a-y back in the 90's when I had some WHF Imperial Infantry that had a halberd and shield; I thought "No way is this a thing" and trimmed the axe head and back hook off so that it looked like he had a spear and so was more 'realistic'.

 

I am a lot more chill these days and I won't be doing that with this Sister.

 

There is medieval artwork of soldiers with polearms and shields. They might have carried to protect from arrowfire and then discarded/slinged it on their back and started chopping, which is how the WHF rules worked.

 

In the ones which I have seen the shields are pavises: designed basically with a kickstand and the soldier's stand behind them.

[The Unseen]

My initial thought was that it was it seemed too "heavy" for the SoB (similar to my much-criticized critique of the Castigator in another thread), but in this case it actually makes sense. Halberds were historically the sort of "anti-tank" weapon of infantry (where "tank" was "plate-armored knights"). Their design, size, length, etc... was all meant to do <insert physics and kinesiology here) to achieve a disproportionately large amount of force to the target to actually penetrate the heavy armor. It actually makes sense for SoB to use a sort of equivalent to achieve a similar effect against the transhuman, gene-enhanced, up-daemoned, brutish, etc.... foes they face. It's actually a rather simple and elegant way of making SoB do "heavy" melee damage without just giving them thunder hammers.

 

TL;DR: I dig it.

I always wanted 40k to include "proper" battlefield weapons. AKA big two-handed weapons, mostly polearms. There's a reason that the spear and its bastard offspring are THE pre-gunpowder weapon to beat. And it makes sense, if you need more damage, you use a bigger lever. Even a relatively weak and squishy human can still do terrifying things with a 6ft long pole with a pointy bit on the end. Now give it a power field and it'll probably cut through a tank.