The Organization and Role of the Sororitas War-Machine

[ThePenitentOne]

Yeah, the organizational overview in the 8th dex makes it clear that sisters are quite a force to be reckoned with- the fleet information in particular surprised me. I'd like to see the range grow to represent those things; we could have an Abbess, a Cannoness Superior, a Cannoness Preceptor and  a Cannoness Commander. Why not, right?

 

Frateris militia are also mentioned in that organizational overview more than once, despite the decree passive.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

Yeah, the organizational overview in the 8th dex makes it clear that sisters are quite a force to be reckoned with- the fleet information in particular surprised me. I'd like to see the range grow to represent those things; we could have an Abbess, a Cannoness Superior, a Cannoness Preceptor and a Cannoness Commander. Why not, right?

 

Frateris militia are also mentioned in that organizational overview more than once, despite the decree passive.

Yeah that made me raise my eyebrows a bit, in the codex they have a box that says sisters of battle rely on Imperial navy ships on long term assignment and on the same page they mention Frateris militia battleships. I mean how does that work? Volunteer battleships!

 

It goes back to something that ADB said on twitter once, people discussing how the Imperium works need to remember that the Imperium doesn't actually work that well. The church in particular is incredibly rich and powerful and is almost it's own empire within the empire with entire planets. They will likely bend many rules and just throw money and any problem if that includes wanting a fully functioning independent military force under their direction only why not?

Edited April 3, 2021 by Preliminary Bombardment

[sitnam]

 

Yeah, the organizational overview in the 8th dex makes it clear that sisters are quite a force to be reckoned with- the fleet information in particular surprised me. I'd like to see the range grow to represent those things; we could have an Abbess, a Cannoness Superior, a Cannoness Preceptor and a Cannoness Commander. Why not, right?

 

Frateris militia are also mentioned in that organizational overview more than once, despite the decree passive.

Yeah that made me raise my eyebrows a bit, in the codex they have a box that says sisters of battle rely on Imperial navy ships on long term assignment and on the same page they mention Frateris militia battleships. I mean how does that work? Volunteer battleships!

They actually called them Frateris Templar Battleships. I assume those are the on-loan naval ships the other blurb spoke about.

 

If Battlefleet Gothic ever came back I'd love for a Ministorum list to be a thing

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Yeah, the organizational overview in the 8th dex makes it clear that sisters are quite a force to be reckoned with- the fleet information in particular surprised me. I'd like to see the range grow to represent those things; we could have an Abbess, a Cannoness Superior, a Cannoness Preceptor and a Cannoness Commander. Why not, right?

 

Frateris militia are also mentioned in that organizational overview more than once, despite the decree passive.

Yeah that made me raise my eyebrows a bit, in the codex they have a box that says sisters of battle rely on Imperial navy ships on long term assignment and on the same page they mention Frateris militia battleships. I mean how does that work? Volunteer battleships!

 

It goes back to something that ADB said on twitter once, people discussing how the Imperium works need to remember that the Imperium doesn't actually work that well. The church in particular is incredibly rich and powerful and is almost it's own empire within the empire with entire planets. They will likely bend many rules and just throw money and any problem if that includes wanting a fully functioning independent military force under their direction only why not?

I'd imagine they have combat vessels in their battleship, then rely on regular imperial transports from the navy, the same way the US has its navy and then relies its military sealift command to transport large amounts of troops and cargo.

[Banjulhu]

It's worth remembering that in the background the Adepta Sororitas exist in part as a ":cuss you" to the Adeptus Terra.

The decree passive was meant to stop them having a fully functioning army and instead force the Ecclesiarchy into just having troops that can do defensive/support tasks and similar. They were meant to be limited, it's just that the church had other ideas and the capacity to see them through.

Should the Sororitas be a fully functional fighting force? No.

Are they a fully functional fighting force? Yes.

 

The fact that the Adeptus Terra did not see fully just what the Ecclesirachy were doing over the years after the decree and then just accepted the Sisters as they are for the most part once it became obvious that the Imperium needed them is a shining example of the Imperium's internal flaws and that is kind of the point as well.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Banjulhu

[Ficinus]

It's not 100% clear what the Decree Passive meant to do. By some accounts, the Sisters are an abuse of a loophole meant to keep the church unarmed. By other accounts Thor knew exactly what he was doing by specifying "men under arms" and intended for the Daughters of the Emperor to become a fighting and police force for the Ecclesiarchy because he trusted that their faith would never let them follow a madman like Vandire again.

 

As a force meant to police the Ecclesiarchy, things like repressors (an Arbite crowd control tank) make sense. As a front line fighting force both defending cathedral worlds and taking part in crusades, they need battle tanks (like the exorcist).

[Banjulhu]

It's not 100% clear what the Decree Passive meant to do. By some accounts, the Sisters are an abuse of a loophole meant to keep the church unarmed. By other accounts Thor knew exactly what he was doing by specifying "men under arms" and intended for the Daughters of the Emperor to become a fighting and police force for the Ecclesiarchy because he trusted that their faith would never let them follow a madman like Vandire again.

 

As a force meant to police the Ecclesiarchy, things like repressors (an Arbite crowd control tank) make sense. As a front line fighting force both defending cathedral worlds and taking part in crusades, they need battle tanks (like the exorcist).

Welcome to a background written over many years by different people with their own opinions about what it means.

 

I would generally say to view it in it's broadest terms. The Adeptus Terra did not want the Ministorum to have so too much power (martial or political) that it could bring the Imperium to it's knees like Goge Vandire did and so made some very wide reaching rulings.

 

The Ministorum saw the rules and felt they were too limiting so found creative ways around them.

 

5000 years later it looks like the Ministorum doing so has been a great benefit to the Imperium.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Banjulhu

[Ficinus]

I will say in favor of the other argument that the same man who wrote the Decree Passive is the man who granted the Adepta Sororitas permission to begin organizing into a full fighting force, Sebastian Thor. So it seems less cut and dry.

[jakerichmond]

It's worth remembering that in the background the Adepta Sororitas exist in part as a ":cuss you" to the Adeptus Terra.

 

The decree passive was meant to stop them having a fully functioning army and instead force the Ecclesiarchy into just having troops that can do defensive/support tasks and similar. They were meant to be limited, it's just that the church had other ideas and the capacity to see them through.

 

Should the Sororitas be a fully functional fighting force? No.

Are they a fully functional fighting force? Yes.

Its REALLY worth keeping in mind that this bit of fluff explicitly existed to justify the original limited SoB range (as confirmed by Jes Goodwin years and years ago). It was written to explain why the entire army was made up of 2o metal miniatures and an add on metal rhino turret. 

 

 

[War Angel]

Further worth noting, the galaxy has changed drastically. While sisters once were not a full fighting force, now they need to be. I know the imperium has been beset from all sides for a long time now, but they’ve managed to become even more beset. Roll out those battle tanks!

[ThePenitentOne]

Totally; the Indomitas era weaponized a lot of Imperial forces that had previously had more niche responsibilities- Custodes and SoS also fit that bill.

Edited April 15, 2021 by ThePenitentOne

[jakerichmond]

Further worth noting, the galaxy has changed drastically. While sisters once were not a full fighting force, now they need to be. I know the imperium has been beset from all sides for a long time now, but they’ve managed to become even more beset. Roll out those battle tanks!

Its interesting too because I think the Sister's forces were always undercounted. I'm not sure if that because no one at GW really cared much, or if they never really did the math. They do the opposite with Marines, who are so rare that they statistically shouldn't matter at all but are vastly over represented. If Sisters have a presence on most human planets, even if that's just a small garrison to protect local shrines, a small local monetary or a body guard for local Ministorium officials, that still means there's likely way more Sisters than Space Marines (at least pre-primaris. IDK what marine numbers look like now). And thats just small Sisters detachments. Thats not counting dedicated Sisters forces fighting in multiple battel zones, or full garrisons for important Ministorium sites. How many Sisters garrison a Cathedral World?

 

Lets look at some highly speculative numbers. The Imperium is described as having over 1 million settled planets. Lets say the Ministorium has a minimum presence (50 sisters) on just 10%. Thats 5 million Sisters. And thats just small garrisons. That doesn't count whatever the numbers of the actual dedicated combat forces are, which are likely very large.

 

Comparatively, there are said to be about 1000 Marine Chapters, each with about 1000 Marines. I imagine that number is different post Primaris, but thats only about 1 million Marines.

 

In the past Sister's numbers have been portrayed as fairly small, and that's lead people to believe they're a small organization. But thats really just not possible. Sisters really HAVE to be a larger presence in the Imperium. 

[sitnam]

40k numbers always should be taken with some salt, and old sisters in particular were an example. The Codex organization chart lists atleast 7 preceptories in a major order, but the line goes on after that. Going off the organization chart in the new lore, the major orders should be atleast a few thousand strong, if not tens or hundreds of thousands strong, depending on how many preceptories there are. You could make a fairly lore-friendly argument a single major order would likely rival the Legiones Astartes in size, especially given the size of their parishes.

 

This isn't even accounting for the numerous minor orders, by my quick Lexicanum count, there are like thirty plus minor militant orders. If these minor orders average a thousand sisters each, that's a small legion in itself.

[jakerichmond]

40k numbers always should be taken with some salt, and old sisters in particular were an example. The Codex organization chart lists atleast 7 preceptories in a major order, but the line goes on after that. Going off the organization chart in the new lore, the major orders should be atleast a few thousand strong, if not tens or hundreds of thousands strong, depending on how many preceptories there are. You could make a fairly lore-friendly argument a single major order would likely rival the Legiones Astartes in size, especially given the size of their parishes.

 

This isn't even accounting for the numerous minor orders, by my quick Lexicanum count, there are like thirty plus minor militant orders. If these minor orders average a thousand sisters each, that's a small legion in itself.

You're right. 40K numbers are always wonky. I've always been really bothered by that.

 

Space Marines being ultra rare is well established in the setting, but I've never felt like the setting authors really understood how insignificant 1000 chapters of 1000 Marines actually is in a setting with over 1 million inhabited imperial planets (plus presumably millions of other planets). But since the rarity of Space Marines has been stated thousands of times, I can accept that they're near mythical beings that most most Imperial worlds just never see and many Imperial citizens doubt even exist.

 

But that just doesn't make any sense for Sisters. The Ministorium is established on nearly every Imperial world. That would mean millions of instillations, ranging from tiny outposts and monasteries to full on Cathedral worlds. There HAVE to be more than a few hundreds thousand Sisters, or even a few million Sisters, to protect these worlds. Let alone go on crusades and participate in joint military actions. Even if each of these instillations only has a single squad of sisters to protect it (which is a ridiculously small number), thats still millions and millions of Sisters. Maybe hundreds of millions. Which dwarves the number of Space Marines in existence and probably makes Sisters the second largest human military force.

 

But... sigh... thats not how the fluff works, I guess. The richest organization to ever exist, and possibly the largest human organization in the galaxy, with trillions of followers and tens of millions of installations on a million worlds is protected by... a few hundred thousand Sisters. Not even enough Sisters to assign one to each planet.

 

[sitnam]

 

 

40k numbers always should be taken with some salt, and old sisters in particular were an example. The Codex organization chart lists atleast 7 preceptories in a major order, but the line goes on after that. Going off the organization chart in the new lore, the major orders should be atleast a few thousand strong, if not tens or hundreds of thousands strong, depending on how many preceptories there are. You could make a fairly lore-friendly argument a single major order would likely rival the Legiones Astartes in size, especially given the size of their parishes.

 

This isn't even accounting for the numerous minor orders, by my quick Lexicanum count, there are like thirty plus minor militant orders. If these minor orders average a thousand sisters each, that's a small legion in itself.

You're right. 40K numbers are always wonky. I've always been really bothered by that.

 

Space Marines being ultra rare is well established in the setting, but I've never felt like the setting authors really understood how insignificant 1000 chapters of 1000 Marines actually is in a setting with over 1 million inhabited imperial planets (plus presumably millions of other planets). But since the rarity of Space Marines has been stated thousands of times, I can accept that they're near mythical beings that most most Imperial worlds just never see and many Imperial citizens doubt even exist.

 

But that just doesn't make any sense for Sisters. The Ministorium is established on nearly every Imperial world. That would mean millions of instillations, ranging from tiny outposts and monasteries to full on Cathedral worlds. There HAVE to be more than a few hundreds thousand Sisters, or even a few million Sisters, to protect these worlds. Let alone go on crusades and participate in joint military actions. Even if each of these instillations only has a single squad of sisters to protect it (which is a ridiculously small number), thats still millions and millions of Sisters. Maybe hundreds of millions. Which dwarves the number of Space Marines in existence and probably makes Sisters the second largest human military force.

 

But... sigh... thats not how the fluff works, I guess. The richest organization to ever exist, and possibly the largest human organization in the galaxy, with trillions of followers and tens of millions of installations on a million worlds is protected by... a few hundred thousand Sisters. Not even enough Sisters to assign one to each planet.

I'd argue the Mechanicus should be the second largest human fighting force, and with the appearance of real space chaos empires post-Great Rift then I wouldn't be surprised in the various traitor Guard and chaos cults make up the third largest, albeit fairly disunified.

 

But there should definitely be a few million sisters just to logically make some sense. Luckily unlike the Astartes, we don't have hard numbers, so I could easily argue that 1000 preceptories per order is reasonable

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

40k numbers always should be taken with some salt, and old sisters in particular were an example. The Codex organization chart lists atleast 7 preceptories in a major order, but the line goes on after that. Going off the organization chart in the new lore, the major orders should be atleast a few thousand strong, if not tens or hundreds of thousands strong, depending on how many preceptories there are. You could make a fairly lore-friendly argument a single major order would likely rival the Legiones Astartes in size, especially given the size of their parishes.

 

This isn't even accounting for the numerous minor orders, by my quick Lexicanum count, there are like thirty plus minor militant orders. If these minor orders average a thousand sisters each, that's a small legion in itself.

You're right. 40K numbers are always wonky. I've always been really bothered by that.

 

Space Marines being ultra rare is well established in the setting, but I've never felt like the setting authors really understood how insignificant 1000 chapters of 1000 Marines actually is in a setting with over 1 million inhabited imperial planets (plus presumably millions of other planets). But since the rarity of Space Marines has been stated thousands of times, I can accept that they're near mythical beings that most most Imperial worlds just never see and many Imperial citizens doubt even exist.

 

But that just doesn't make any sense for Sisters. The Ministorium is established on nearly every Imperial world. That would mean millions of instillations, ranging from tiny outposts and monasteries to full on Cathedral worlds. There HAVE to be more than a few hundreds thousand Sisters, or even a few million Sisters, to protect these worlds. Let alone go on crusades and participate in joint military actions. Even if each of these instillations only has a single squad of sisters to protect it (which is a ridiculously small number), thats still millions and millions of Sisters. Maybe hundreds of millions. Which dwarves the number of Space Marines in existence and probably makes Sisters the second largest human military force.

 

But... sigh... thats not how the fluff works, I guess. The richest organization to ever exist, and possibly the largest human organization in the galaxy, with trillions of followers and tens of millions of installations on a million worlds is protected by... a few hundred thousand Sisters. Not even enough Sisters to assign one to each planet.

im sure the official count was always fairly low, because of bad record keeping, but in the 90s-00s I'm sure the idea wasn't for every munitorum installation to have a garrison of sisters.

Only the larger and more important ones would. At least that would be my guess. I'm not particularly familiar with their lore but I'm hoping to change that

[jakerichmond]

 

 

40k numbers always should be taken with some salt, and old sisters in particular were an example. The Codex organization chart lists atleast 7 preceptories in a major order, but the line goes on after that. Going off the organization chart in the new lore, the major orders should be atleast a few thousand strong, if not tens or hundreds of thousands strong, depending on how many preceptories there are. You could make a fairly lore-friendly argument a single major order would likely rival the Legiones Astartes in size, especially given the size of their parishes.

 

This isn't even accounting for the numerous minor orders, by my quick Lexicanum count, there are like thirty plus minor militant orders. If these minor orders average a thousand sisters each, that's a small legion in itself.

You're right. 40K numbers are always wonky. I've always been really bothered by that.

 

Space Marines being ultra rare is well established in the setting, but I've never felt like the setting authors really understood how insignificant 1000 chapters of 1000 Marines actually is in a setting with over 1 million inhabited imperial planets (plus presumably millions of other planets). But since the rarity of Space Marines has been stated thousands of times, I can accept that they're near mythical beings that most most Imperial worlds just never see and many Imperial citizens doubt even exist.

 

But that just doesn't make any sense for Sisters. The Ministorium is established on nearly every Imperial world. That would mean millions of instillations, ranging from tiny outposts and monasteries to full on Cathedral worlds. There HAVE to be more than a few hundreds thousand Sisters, or even a few million Sisters, to protect these worlds. Let alone go on crusades and participate in joint military actions. Even if each of these instillations only has a single squad of sisters to protect it (which is a ridiculously small number), thats still millions and millions of Sisters. Maybe hundreds of millions. Which dwarves the number of Space Marines in existence and probably makes Sisters the second largest human military force.

 

But... sigh... thats not how the fluff works, I guess. The richest organization to ever exist, and possibly the largest human organization in the galaxy, with trillions of followers and tens of millions of installations on a million worlds is protected by... a few hundred thousand Sisters. Not even enough Sisters to assign one to each planet.

im sure the official count was always fairly low, because of bad record keeping, but in the 90s-00s I'm sure the idea wasn't for every munitorum installation to have a garrison of sisters.

Only the larger and more important ones would. At least that would be my guess. I'm not particularly familiar with their lore but I'm hoping to change that

 

I don't feel like its ever really been stated one way or the other. A lot of Sisters lore seems to go out of its way to avoid questions like that.

 

So I'm making a lot of assumptions, but I feel like protecting church property and personnel has to be one of the major functions of the Sisters. Maybe some instillations, holy sites and and monasteries are protected by some other Ministorium agency instead? Maybe they have a more mundane security force for daily patrols around the local holy sites? And very likely larger instillations a nd Cathedral worlds are also protected by PDF. But it seems like if you have important installations and personnel that you'd want your best soldiers protecting them. Especially in setting where a Demons or a Dark Eldar raid can just show up.

 

Its all speculation, but the numbers seem super low, and I think they give a really skewed impression to how prevalent Sisters are.

[Willy Pete]

To put some more perspective on GW numbers.  At one point it was stated that there was only one regiment of Stormtroopers in the entire Imperial Guard, so there were more genetically engineered Space Marines than normal humans who qualified as Stormtroopers.

 

GW has always had a problem with numbers.  I don't care how good they are, a million Space Marines becomes totally insignificant in a galaxy wide empire that has a million plus worlds.  Even if each Marine is worth a hundred Guardsmen, that still puts their effective numbers at about the same as the combined militaries that fought in WW II.  And even if Marines really are just uber superior to humans, they still can't be in two places at once.  A hundred Marines landing on the planet will totally dominate the area they land on.  But that area is going to be pretty small compared to the total land mass.  Thus, the best way to deal with Marines is to just ignore them.  Let them have the territory they occupy, and take everything else.  Then, just cut their supply lines and let them rot.  Even Marines have to eat.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

To put some more perspective on GW numbers. At one point it was stated that there was only one regiment of Stormtroopers in the entire Imperial Guard, so there were more genetically engineered Space Marines than normal humans who qualified as Stormtroopers.

 

GW has always had a problem with numbers. I don't care how good they are, a million Space Marines becomes totally insignificant in a galaxy wide empire that has a million plus worlds. Even if each Marine is worth a hundred Guardsmen, that still puts their effective numbers at about the same as the combined militaries that fought in WW II. And even if Marines really are just uber superior to humans, they still can't be in two places at once. A hundred Marines landing on the planet will totally dominate the area they land on. But that area is going to be pretty small compared to the total land mass. Thus, the best way to deal with Marines is to just ignore them. Let them have the territory they occupy, and take everything else. Then, just cut their supply lines and let them rot. Even Marines have to eat.

to cut their supply lines you have to gain air and space superiority over where they are as well.

[jakerichmond]

 

To put some more perspective on GW numbers. At one point it was stated that there was only one regiment of Stormtroopers in the entire Imperial Guard, so there were more genetically engineered Space Marines than normal humans who qualified as Stormtroopers.

 

GW has always had a problem with numbers. I don't care how good they are, a million Space Marines becomes totally insignificant in a galaxy wide empire that has a million plus worlds. Even if each Marine is worth a hundred Guardsmen, that still puts their effective numbers at about the same as the combined militaries that fought in WW II. And even if Marines really are just uber superior to humans, they still can't be in two places at once. A hundred Marines landing on the planet will totally dominate the area they land on. But that area is going to be pretty small compared to the total land mass. Thus, the best way to deal with Marines is to just ignore them. Let them have the territory they occupy, and take everything else. Then, just cut their supply lines and let them rot. Even Marines have to eat.

to cut their supply lines you have to gain air and space superiority over where they are as well.

 

That can't actually be hard though, can it? How many aircraft can a chapter field? Every pilot is a Marine, right? And stuff like Thunderhawks have more than one pilot. So Less than 1000 aircraft. Likely way less. A few dozen?. And every Marine who is piloting isn't fighting on the ground. I'm guessing marines mostly rely on support forces for air superiority. There numbers would just be stretched too thin otherwise. 

[sitnam]

GW has always had a problem with numbers. I don't care how good they are, a million Space Marines becomes totally insignificant in a galaxy wide empire that has a million plus worlds. Even if each Marine is worth a hundred Guardsmen, that still puts their effective numbers at about the same as the combined militaries that fought in WW II. And even if Marines really are just uber superior to humans, they still can't be in two places at once. A hundred Marines landing on the planet will totally dominate the area they land on. But that area is going to be pretty small compared to the total land mass. Thus, the best way to deal with Marines is to just ignore them. Let them have the territory they occupy, and take everything else. Then, just cut their supply lines and let them rot. Even Marines have to eat.

I think you massively underestimate marines and their tactics.

 

For one, marines aren't just going to statically hold positions much of the time. That is the job of the Guard in most circumstances, because Astartes just don't have to numbers to man a huge battle sector. Often when Astartes are on the defence it is alongside other imperial forces; even the defence of their own chapter monasteries will involve chapter serfs. Astartes are very capable in the defence to bolster mortals; Heretic Astartes during the siege of Vraks is a good example. The simple presence of traitor marines necessitated the Imperium to call upon their own marines to deal with them.

 

Marines aren't likely to hold many places long, and they will either move on via land (good luck pinning them down without an inordinate amount of firepower) or air extraction. Gaining air superiority over marines is harder then it sounds, given that marine aircraft are fairly tough and fairly advanced.

 

The impact of a hundred marines on a planetary campaign can be huge because they can target the most critical hostile installations. Power plants, command bunkers, fuel depot's, seats of government. They are not gonna target areas an enemy can ignore.

 

Also, you could try to starve out marines, but good luck. They can go far longer without sustenance then any human

 

Overall, the importance of marines is felt in the most important war zones. There are countless conflicts the Imperium fights without space marines present, and the Imperium survives. But in other campaigns such as Vigilus, Space Marines are vital.

 

I do agree that 1-2 million marines feels a bit light, but marines are supposed to be super rare.

Edited April 17, 2021 by sitnam

[War Angel]

Thank you, someone needed to say that lol.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

To put some more perspective on GW numbers. At one point it was stated that there was only one regiment of Stormtroopers in the entire Imperial Guard, so there were more genetically engineered Space Marines than normal humans who qualified as Stormtroopers.

 

GW has always had a problem with numbers. I don't care how good they are, a million Space Marines becomes totally insignificant in a galaxy wide empire that has a million plus worlds. Even if each Marine is worth a hundred Guardsmen, that still puts their effective numbers at about the same as the combined militaries that fought in WW II. And even if Marines really are just uber superior to humans, they still can't be in two places at once. A hundred Marines landing on the planet will totally dominate the area they land on. But that area is going to be pretty small compared to the total land mass. Thus, the best way to deal with Marines is to just ignore them. Let them have the territory they occupy, and take everything else. Then, just cut their supply lines and let them rot. Even Marines have to eat.

to cut their supply lines you have to gain air and space superiority over where they are as well.

That can't actually be hard though, can it? How many aircraft can a chapter field? Every pilot is a Marine, right? And stuff like Thunderhawks have more than one pilot. So Less than 1000 aircraft. Likely way less. A few dozen?. And every Marine who is piloting isn't fighting on the ground. I'm guessing marines mostly rely on support forces for air superiority. There numbers would just be stretched too thin otherwise.

you still have to fight the imperial navy.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

GW has always had a problem with numbers. I don't care how good they are, a million Space Marines becomes totally insignificant in a galaxy wide empire that has a million plus worlds. Even if each Marine is worth a hundred Guardsmen, that still puts their effective numbers at about the same as the combined militaries that fought in WW II. And even if Marines really are just uber superior to humans, they still can't be in two places at once. A hundred Marines landing on the planet will totally dominate the area they land on. But that area is going to be pretty small compared to the total land mass. Thus, the best way to deal with Marines is to just ignore them. Let them have the territory they occupy, and take everything else. Then, just cut their supply lines and let them rot. Even Marines have to eat.

I think you massively underestimate marines and their tactics.

 

For one, marines aren't just going to statically hold positions much of the time. That is the job of the Guard in most circumstances, because Astartes just don't have to numbers to man a huge battle sector. Often when Astartes are on the defence it is alongside other imperial forces; even the defence of their own chapter monasteries will involve chapter serfs. Astartes are very capable in the defence to bolster mortals; Heretic Astartes during the siege of Vraks is a good example. The simple presence of traitor marines necessitated the Imperium to call upon their own marines to deal with them.

 

Marines aren't likely to hold many places long, and they will either move on via land (good luck pinning them down without an inordinate amount of firepower) or air extraction. Gaining air superiority over marines is harder then it sounds, given that marine aircraft are fairly tough and fairly advanced.

 

The impact of a hundred marines on a planetary campaign can be huge because they can target the most critical hostile installations. Power plants, command bunkers, fuel depot's, seats of government. They are not gonna target areas an enemy can ignore.

 

Also, you could try to starve out marines, but good luck. They can go far longer without sustenance then any human

 

Overall, the importance of marines is felt in the most important war zones. There are countless conflicts the Imperium fights without space marines present, and the Imperium survives. But in other campaigns such as Vigilus, Space Marines are vital.

 

I do agree that 1-2 million marines feels a bit light, but marines are supposed to be super rare.

exactly. The imperium isn't going to be wasting marines to hold a trench line.

They might send some termites via teleporter to break an enemy trenchline.

Nor will the be wasted to take and/or hold some back woods crossroads.

 

Even if you did gain air/space superiority, you'd have to dedicate significant forces to keeping those marines hemmed in. Half a company supported by a million IG, a few thousand sisters, and possibly thousands of AdMech troops will necessitate a huge force to contain it and prevent the marines from creating a breakout.

 

And I think that's where the true effectiveness of marines comes in.

You can't ignore them, and if you focus too much effort on them, their supporting forces will create a decisive breakthrough or strike.

Id also say 1million is a bit low, however I'd say that's the official number, but warp :cussery, and simply the sheer size of the imperium makes difficult to keep up with who is who and where.

 

Like a nearly destroyed chapter gets misreported as destroyed completely and then rebuilds, and has no reason to notify anyone if their continued existence because they don't know they were reported as annihilated, and at some point after being reported destroyed a new chapter is created in a new founding.

 

If that occurs every 100-500 years over the course of 10k years, you could end up with 5-10million marines by the time of the indomitus crusade

Edited April 17, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jakerichmond]

The arguments here are "Its not just marines, but lots of other Imperial forces". But thats the whole point. the marines are a totally insignificant presence compared to whatever Imperial presence is on the battlefield. An entire company of Marines is only 100 guys, In a battle of hundreds of thousands or even millions (as 40K battles are often described) thats statistically insignificant. Maybe Marines punch well above their weight, but even with superhuman soldiers those kind of numbers just don't matter. Even an entire chapter and their collection of light vehicles will be insignificant in that kind of battle. And I don't mean useless. Marines are obviously effective. As on site commanders, moral boosters and in commando and sabotage rolls especially. But a company, or even a chapter , is going to not make much difference in a large battle. It just can't. 100-1000 dudes isn't going to decide a battle of 200000 - 1000000. The idea is ludicrous, even for 40K.