The Organization and Role of the Sororitas War-Machine

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The arguments here are "Its not just marines, but lots of other Imperial forces". But thats the whole point. the marines are a totally insignificant presence compared to whatever Imperial presence is on the battlefield. An entire company of Marines is only 100 guys, In a battle of hundreds of thousands or even millions (as 40K battles are often described) thats statistically insignificant. Maybe Marines punch well above their weight, but even with superhuman soldiers those kind of numbers just don't matter. Even an entire chapter and their collection of light vehicles will be insignificant in that kind of battle. And I don't mean useless. Marines are obviously effective. As on site commanders, moral boosters and in commando and sabotage rolls especially. But a company, or even a chapter , is going to not make much difference in a large battle. It just can't. 100-1000 dudes isn't going to decide a battle of 200000 - 1000000. The idea is ludicrous, even for 40K.

if each marine can account for 1000 baseline humans, or human equivalents 100 marines is not insignificant. That's a serious portion of a million man army. It's still a pretty serious portion of a 5 million man army, and it frees up approximately 100k guardsmen or sisters, or skitarii for service elsewhere.

 

No single imperial faction is going to be the lone difference maker in the sort of conflict that would require a full company of marines, and a couple squads of marines very well could be the make or break for a planet caught by a sudden attack by a waaagh or a tendril of a hive fleet, until other imperial forces can arrive. Either in the form of more marines or more guard, or sisters.

 

Even during the HH when each legion had 50k or more marines the great crusade still relied heavily on baseline humans and mechanicus support.

 

When a single squad can blast through an HQ building/bunker/whatever to eliminate the 10 highest ranking officers and their entire support staff along with dozens if not hundreds of combatants, that's not insignificant.

[adreal]

I don't remember which forge world book it was, but it described what the imperium uses marines for.

Not holding the line, although they can help there

 

Not a suicidal charge into no man's land, although they can lead that.

 

No it was a surgical strike to the enemy headquarters that was intrenched. It helped break the stalemate and drive the imperium to victory in that sector.

 

But yes, marine, guard and sisters numbers are wrong, they just are, you kinda just shrug and deal with it

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I don't remember which forge world book it was, but it described what the imperium uses marines for.

Not holding the line, although they can help there

 

Not a suicidal charge into no man's land, although they can lead that.

 

No it was a surgical strike to the enemy headquarters that was intrenched. It helped break the stalemate and drive the imperium to victory in that sector.

 

But yes, marine, guard and sisters numbers are wrong, they just are, you kinda just shrug and deal with it

it partly depends on the chapter.

IF? Ya they're probably helping to hold the line where fighting is fiercest since fortifications are their thing.

RG? Much more likely to be used as a scalpel.

BA? more of a sword than a scalpel or a shield

UM? A little bit of all of it lol.

 

But ya, a small number of marines can make a huge difference in a battle winning the campaign, thus the war/crusade.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[toaae]

++Moderation++

I split these posts off from the Castigator topic so it could maintain its focus, and this great discussion could continue.

 

Thank you.

Edited April 19, 2021 by toaae

[War Angel]

Because I don’t think it’s been said, there’s also a big difference in 1000 guys in an area, and 10 guys in an area that are each the equivalent of 1000 guys (or 100, depending on source) one of the principles of war is “Mass” or “concentration of force”. How many people can you get into one area, so that their overwhelming firepower destroys the enemy, not just because it’s enough rounds to destroy a tank, but because the enemy can’t even expose his head due to the shear weight of fire pinning him down. Marines, being 100x their normal counterparts, while only taking up 2 or 3 times the space, allow for SIGNIFICANTLY better mass. I don’t think GW is directly aware of this, as I’m not really sure any of them have ever been military, but even so, they’ve stumbled on the concept just fine.

 

In other words, it’s not about the fact that there’s only a million Marines. The imperium survives most conflicts without them. It’s about those million Marines being used in the right spot to further swing victory in humanity’s favor.

 

Sisters have a similar effect, if not the same multipliers.

[jakerichmond]

The idea that each Marine is the equivalent of 1000 Guardsmen is absolutely ridiculous. Even 100 is ridiculous. There can't be any kind of serious conversation if that kind of nonsense is being considered. 

[sitnam]

The idea that each Marine is the equivalent of 1000 Guardsmen is absolutely ridiculous. Even 100 is ridiculous. There can't be any kind of serious conversation if that kind of nonsense is being considered.

Considering the source material, no it's not ridiculous. I'm not sure I quite agree with 1000 guardsmen, but 100 guardsmen is pretty reasonable after having read numerous BL stories. In countless novels, codex entries, and campaign supplements we see 100 marines push way above their weight. They are superhuman strong, nearly as fast as Eldar, have armor that can defeat the majority of small arms and even has a chance of saving the wearer from higher calibers, and have personal weapons that do a tremendous amount of damage. They are also hugely versatile, with a codex compliant battle company Tactical Marine having experience as a recon Scout, a melee Assault, and a long-range Devastator.

 

To think that the typical PDF trooper or guardsmen has anything near even a 10-1 parity is a stretch. The only standard humans I see getting a 10-1 or better parity would be something like Sororitas or Scions, who bridge the technological gap and make up for the pysiological disadvantages with higher numbers

Edited April 19, 2021 by sitnam

[War Angel]

The idea that each Marine is the equivalent of 1000 Guardsmen is absolutely ridiculous. Even 100 is ridiculous. There can't be any kind of serious conversation if that kind of nonsense is being considered.

 

Not with that kind of negativity. If you’d like though, we can continue this conversation while ignoring any and all fluff, though at that point we wouldn’t really have any reference point to use in the discussion. Edited April 20, 2021 by War Angel

[Willy Pete]

This is 40K.  The whole damned setting is ridiculous.  Psykers who can shift reality with just their thoughts, demons tearing their way into reality to eat your soul, eight foot tall guys wearing tanks and screaming, 'For the Emperor!', thirty story buildings walking around shooting at each other with ginormous guns, tanks the size of city blocks, literal gods showing up on the battlefield, etc.

 

In my opinion, if you're taking this setting seriously, you're doing it wrong.  The sheer over the top, starting at 11 and then cranking it up further aspect of the background is what makes it fun.

 

At least in my opinion.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The idea that each Marine is the equivalent of 1000 Guardsmen is absolutely ridiculous. Even 100 is ridiculous. There can't be any kind of serious conversation if that kind of nonsense is being considered.

have you actually read any of the actual books or stories? The only way for guard and their equivalents to reliably kill a marine is to bring dedicated anti-tank weapons to bear. In game rules, and fluff are 100% separate. In lore a lasgun is completely useless against a marine's armor...

[Willy Pete]

There is  an in universe explanation for the confusion over how many Sisters of Battle there actually are.  The Ecclesiarchy is hiding their true strength.

 

The Imperium is riven with different factions, power blocks, rivals and overlapping spheres of influence.  Sabotage, assassinations, coups, skirmishes and even out right wars between factions are common.

 

In a situation like that, you wouldn't want your enemies to know how many troops you have, what they're equipped with, or where they are.  In fact, you would most likely spread disinformation as widely as you could about how few troops you have, and how badly they are equipped.  You definitely wouldn't be mentioning any auxiliary assets you might have, such as Frateris Militias or Stormtrooper companies.  The true numbers would be highly classified and available only on a need to know basis.  And of course, even those with a need to know, might not know the true numbers.

[sitnam]

There is an in universe explanation for the confusion over how many Sisters of Battle there actually are. The Ecclesiarchy is hiding their true strength.

 

The Imperium is riven with different factions, power blocks, rivals and overlapping spheres of influence. Sabotage, assassinations, coups, skirmishes and even out right wars between factions are common.

 

In a situation like that, you wouldn't want your enemies to know how many troops you have, what they're equipped with, or where they are. In fact, you would most likely spread disinformation as widely as you could about how few troops you have, and how badly they are equipped. You definitely wouldn't be mentioning any auxiliary assets you might have, such as Frateris Militias or Stormtrooper companies. The true numbers would be highly classified and available only on a need to know basis. And of course, even those with a need to know, might not know the true numbers.

I don't think it's really confusion about how many Sisters, more so it's that they just don't outright state it so fans are left to extrapolate. We've been told for decades the Astartes have about 1000 chapters of about 1000 marines. The new lore organization chart does a great job laying out the structure of the major orders, but we never really get a hint for how many preceptories each major order has, and exactly how many minor orders are out there.Honestly I prefer the ambiguity because it does allow you to head canon within the confines of the fluff

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Because I don’t think it’s been said, there’s also a big difference in 1000 guys in an area, and 10 guys in an area that are each the equivalent of 1000 guys (or 100, depending on source) one of the principles of war is “Mass” or “concentration of force”. How many people can you get into one area, so that their overwhelming firepower destroys the enemy, not just because it’s enough rounds to destroy a tank, but because the enemy can’t even expose his head due to the shear weight of fire pinning him down. Marines, being 100x their normal counterparts, while only taking up 2 or 3 times the space, allow for SIGNIFICANTLY better mass. I don’t think GW is directly aware of this, as I’m not really sure any of them have ever been military, but even so, they’ve stumbled on the concept just fine.

 

In other words, it’s not about the fact that there’s only a million Marines. The imperium survives most conflicts without them. It’s about those million Marines being used in the right spot to further swing victory in humanity’s favor.

 

Sisters have a similar effect, if not the same multipliers.

 

Marines being in the right spot I think is the key. Lore wise I don't think the Imperium actually cares that much about 95% of the worlds that they have inhabited. Its the worlds like Armageddon that they'll sacrifice a ton for because of how much it produces, that justify marines spot in the lore.  

 

The idea that each Marine is the equivalent of 1000 Guardsmen is absolutely ridiculous. Even 100 is ridiculous. There can't be any kind of serious conversation if that kind of nonsense is being considered. 

 

I gotta agree with Willy Pete, IMO 40k is so over the top in general that our serious conversations should be reserved for the models, and game design. There are BL authors that write stories support those ratios, its just part of the setting. That said you can find stories that match your expectations for how strong marines are as well.   

[Brother Tyler]

Frateris Militia and Frateris Templars are two different things (I think).

 

The Frateris Templars were the standing army (men under arms) of the Ecclesiarchy, forbidden under the Decree Passive. Though never given official rules, my impression was that they were comparable with the Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum, but with a religious twist.

 

The Frateris Militia, meanwhile, are something different. From the 2nd edition codex:

  

As well as the official organisations of the Ecclesiarchy, the Adeptus Ministorum is usually accompanied by a number of Frateris Militia. The Frateris Militia have no formal connection to the Ecclesiarchy other than they follow the Imperial Creed and thus do not break the provisions of the Decree Passive. Frateris Militia can be formed in a variety of ways and for varying lengths of time. A Preacher discovering a heretical cult may rouse his followers to attack the enemy and cast them out. Confessors are often followed by large entourages of fanatical Frateris [Militia], crazed zealots and pious mendicants who will carry out his orders without question and would rather die than fail their leader. Missionaries often have a following of converts accompanying them, helping to spread the word of the Imperial Cult. In desperate situations, the Deacons, Deans and other functionaries may even be armed from the secret vaults of the Imperial Shrines. When the temples are threatened these faithful may be the only defence against an enemy cult or alien invader.

 

When a War of Faith is declared, thousands of Frateris Militia will assemble with the ranks of the Battle Sisters and Imperial Guard, eager to prove their dedication to the Emperor. These untrained followers are not always desirable and in the past, especially during the Age of Apostasy, they fought among themselves as much as with the enemy. The strength of their faith is laudable, but the vast seething masses are hard to control and many innocents are slain when the Frateris Militia storm a rebel citadel or assault a heretic cult. If the official armies of the War of Faith are defeated and scattered, the Militia loses its focus and usually rapidly disbands into a collection of roving hordes, pillaging and wantonly slaughtering the locals. The Frateris clergy is wary of raising Frateris Militia and do so only in times of great need.

The Frateris Templars were trained soldiers, formally part of the Ecclesiarchy, whereas the Frateris Militia were/are untrained zealots, followers of the Imperial Creed but not formally part of the Ecclesiarchy. The Frateris Militia are probably equipped to a low standard, often wearing little or no armour and mostly bearing basic weapons such as cudgels, knives, and occasionally simple firearms that civilians might be able to acquire.

 

With regard to the military forces of the Ecclesiarchy, the only significant contradiction (retcon) from the 2nd edition lore (not including all of the things that have been added, such as arco-flagellants and crusaders) is the fact that the Ecclesiarchy [now/once again] has a fleet in the Frateris Templar battleships, cruiser squadrons, and secondary escort squadrons. In describing the reformation [of the Ecclesiarchy], the 2nd edition codex said that "Sebastian Thor was ordered to disband the Frateris Templars of Vandire and any armies and fleets assembled by other members of the Ministorum..." (emphasis added).

 

Practically speaking, however, the [apparent] retcon to include spacefaring ships within the forces of the Ecclesiarchy makes sense from the perspective of the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy needs a means to move personnel and materiel throughout the galaxy. One option would be for them to make use of external capabilities. While the Imperial Navy is the obvious choice in this, there are also rogue trader fleets (some of which are known to occasionally support crusades/wars of faith). The Ecclesiarchy would most likely see these options as sub-optimal, preferring instead to amass their own fleet. If they avoid the men under arms portion (i.e., using sisters of the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas), they are still within the letter of the Decree Passive. This is little different from how the Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Astartes, and other forces of the Imperium have their own spacefaring craft capabilities to support their unique requirements. The sophistry from the Ecclesiarchy would be that "ships" are not equal to "men" and therefore not forbidden under the Decree Passive.

[sitnam]

I almost wonder if the existence of a Minisoturum fleet is either a hint for Battlefleet Gothic (which I kind of doubt) or future proofing for potential BFG.

 

Or it could just be a organization chart I look at too much

[Brother Tyler]

It could be either of those things. Or it could simply be that GW has considered the logistical aspects of fighting war and getting to where you want to be and they've decided that giving the Ecclesiarchy a fleet is better than forcing them to rely on the Imperial Navy/Rogue Traders.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

Maybe if the crews of the ships are all female that let's them get around the decree?

[Beams]

 

The arguments here are "Its not just marines, but lots of other Imperial forces". But thats the whole point. the marines are a totally insignificant presence compared to whatever Imperial presence is on the battlefield. An entire company of Marines is only 100 guys, In a battle of hundreds of thousands or even millions (as 40K battles are often described) thats statistically insignificant. Maybe Marines punch well above their weight, but even with superhuman soldiers those kind of numbers just don't matter. Even an entire chapter and their collection of light vehicles will be insignificant in that kind of battle. And I don't mean useless. Marines are obviously effective. As on site commanders, moral boosters and in commando and sabotage rolls especially. But a company, or even a chapter , is going to not make much difference in a large battle. It just can't. 100-1000 dudes isn't going to decide a battle of 200000 - 1000000. The idea is ludicrous, even for 40K.

if each marine can account for 1000 baseline humans, or human equivalents 100 marines is not insignificant. That's a serious portion of a million man army. It's still a pretty serious portion of a 5 million man army, and it frees up approximately 100k guardsmen or sisters, or skitarii for service elsewhere.

 

No single imperial faction is going to be the lone difference maker in the sort of conflict that would require a full company of marines, and a couple squads of marines very well could be the make or break for a planet caught by a sudden attack by a waaagh or a tendril of a hive fleet, until other imperial forces can arrive. Either in the form of more marines or more guard, or sisters.

 

Even during the HH when each legion had 50k or more marines the great crusade still relied heavily on baseline humans and mechanicus support.

 

When a single squad can blast through an HQ building/bunker/whatever to eliminate the 10 highest ranking officers and their entire support staff along with dozens if not hundreds of combatants, that's not insignificant.

 

 

100 men fighting as 100,000 is great, until a Deathstrike missile hits, and kills those ten. Or Abaddon destroys the planet.

 

My understanding is that Marines are super hard to make, so if they lose 10 marines in a battle, it's a tragedy.

 

The Adepta Sororitas are said to be on almost every world, in charge of things like Shrines, Hospitals etc.  So they have to number higher than GW says they do, and Imperial Guard have numbers somewhere in the Trillions. Space Marines are good and all, and I'm sure when they do show up, they help -- but their numbers are so low as to be insignificant. Just in a numbers game, most battles that take place in the Warhammer 40k universe likely don't even involve Space Marines. 

 

It's probably mostly Guard Vs Orks, Guard Vs Traitors/Cults/Etc, and then some of those have Sisters support, and even fewer have Adeptus Mechanicus support, and very rarely, only in battles that Space Marines deem important, do the Space Marines show up and steal the Guardsmen's glory. 

[ThePenitentOne]

 

have you actually read any of the actual books or stories? The only way for guard and their equivalents to reliably kill a marine is to bring dedicated anti-tank weapons to bear. In game rules, and fluff are 100% separate. In lore a lasgun is completely useless against a marine's armor...

 

 

This is why I advocate that everyone keep the novels and entertainment arm separate from the game. Novelists write crap that can't possibly happen on the table. They are supposed to be based on the game, but they give you all these lies about marines being faster than sisters or guardsmen when their move stats are equal, or a marine taking a thousand lasgun shots with a smile when we all know that doesn't, and never has happened on the table for the game this tripe was supposedly based on.

 

I've read a handful of BL books. If they started to read more like the game we play, I'd read more. But I just don't like fiction that can't be replicated on the table, and I don't think anyone should bring BL fiction to a discussion about the game.

 

Of course, it could be argued that this thread exists somewhere in the grey area between fiction and game. All of my contributions to this, or any other thread are always based on info from rulebooks, and often only from the most current rulebook.

 

In terms of Organizational structure of the sororitas, I think it is beyond amazing that an Abbess is among the new models GW has chosen to give us. I believe it elevates the faction as a whole. She, more than any other model in our range, gives us the gravitas of other Imperial factions.

[War Angel]

I gotta disagree hard with you on that one. This topic is about fluff not about models. Organizational structure of the actual organization? If you meant to talk about your troop slots then you shouldn’t have started the topic talking about space ships that aren’t in the game.

 

Edit, I agree with you on the abbess, awesome model.

Edited May 5, 2021 by War Angel

[sitnam]

I gotta disagree hard with you on that one. This topic is about fluff not about models. Organizational structure of the actual organization? If you meant to talk about your troop slots then you shouldn’t have started the topic talking about space ships that aren’t in the game.

 

Edit, I agree with you on the abbess, awesome model.

I agree. This type of conversation is almost entirely fluff based. I think the tabletop is silly compared to the fluff in all honesty. Just look at weapon ranges! In game a pistol has half the effective range of a rifle, whereas in real life rifles are much longer ranged then that. Similarly, artillery pieces have a range of miles, whereas in game they might be double or triple that of a rifle

Edited May 5, 2021 by sitnam

[toaae]

Yes, this is a fluff discussion. Since 40k is a setting with many "official" contributors, there is certainly going to be inconsistencies. It's a strength as well as a flaw, to what degree being very subjective.

 

If you meant to talk about your troop slots then you shouldn’t have started the topic talking about space ships that aren’t in the game.

 

For the record, this thread was split from another topic because of the discussion that organically arose. The OP shouldn't be considered an intent to start a thread.

[Montford]

Yeah, the organizational overview in the 8th dex makes it clear that sisters are quite a force to be reckoned with- the fleet information in particular surprised me. I'd like to see the range grow to represent those things; we could have an Abbess, a Cannoness Superior, a Cannoness Preceptor and  a Cannoness Commander. Why not, right?

 

 

With the reveal yesterday we now have the high militant commander of the Sisters, essentially the 40K equivalent of the (US) Chief of Staff: Army for the Sisters of Battle, except instead of staying in the Capitol she is out on the front lines. I was very pleased to note in the briefing by Stu Black that he said she commander both Convents, and thus all six Orders majoris are subordinate to her. IIRC each Order has a commander, who is subordinate to the commander of either Convent on Terra or the Convent on Ophilia VII; and the Convent Commanders are subordinate to Morvenn Vahl.

[War Angel]

Yes, this is a fluff discussion. Since 40k is a setting with many "official" contributors, there is certainly going to be inconsistencies. It's a strength as well as a flaw, to what degree being very subjective.

 

 

If you meant to talk about your troop slots then you shouldn’t have started the topic talking about space ships that aren’t in the game.

 

For the record, this thread was split from another topic because of the discussion that organically arose. The OP shouldn't be considered an intent to start a thread.

Ah yes, I remember now.

 

Edit: I guess if the mods wanted to say it was about the game and not fluff? Not really important I suppose.

Edited May 5, 2021 by War Angel

[toaae]

It is a fluff discussion. ThePenitentOne just made it clear they only source their information from "source book", IE, rulebooks and codices and the like. That's their distinction to make.