Looking again at our Relics

[Captain Idaho]

Since the game shifts on its axis so much with balance and focus, I thought I'd generate some thoughts from the forum on Relic usage and how folk think they are holding up lately.

 

With the changes to Storm Shields enabling Space Marine characters to reach a 1+ armour save, we have relative survivability. On this, I feel like the Tarentian Cloak can make our Captains particularly difficult to bring down. The Invulnerable save from this Relic is generally wasted on just about everyone who is likely to take it, but Techmarines, non-Terminator Librarians and even the likes of Ancients.

 

My inclination is to concentrate on a tough character to exacerbate the bonus from healing D3 wounds. That to me means Gravis Captains, Primaris Captains with

Relic Shields, Terminator Captains and Bike Captains - preferably with Iron Resolve too.

 

***

 

Helm of Censure... I initially dismissed this back in 8th since Captains got rerolls to hits anyway and having a bonus against Astartes (of all types) is a tad niche. However, 40K 9th edition has gone kinda crazy for Marines of all types, especially with Death Guard being disgusting (pun intended) and ALL the Marines supplement, alongside the loss of Captains benefiting from their own rerolls.

 

So this Relic actually has a lot of potential. Against Marines, +1 to hit means your Thunder Hammer swinging Captain will hit on a 2+ and against all those Toughness 5 models we worry about, he'll wound on a 2+ plus gets those rerolls.

 

Damage 3 is terminal to super Heavy infantry and means even Death Guard can be laid low more consistently.

 

Any other combos with the Helm of Censure folk can think of?

 

***

 

Vengeance of Ultramar is still good on a biker Captain with Paragon of War. I've used this combination before and found it's actually an elite/character killer combined with a decent close combat weapon.

 

The biker Captain rushes to the character/target you want dead (I did it to Mephiston last time!), shoot the target with 12 shots (preferably in Tactical Doctrine) to score a few wounds and add a few extras with mortal wounds. Then charge in and swing with your powerful melee weapon and enjoy your handiwork.

 

Of course, without Transhuman Physiology on a Biker Captain, taking on Mephiston on your own is a challenge but he's an extreme example.

 

What this Relic does do is put out a bunch of wounds each turn and the Biker Captain is fast and annoying enough to flit from combat to combat, especially with the Strategum Fall back and Re-engage.

 

I don't see this Relic being taken often in other circumstances since there is still so much scope out of other slots, but I could be wrong.

 

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The Standard of Macragge Inviolate

 

I like this one a lot but it has a key flaw... slow movement. You need to give it to an Ancient who is able to get up the table quickly and where the assault troops are or else you're wasting things a little.

 

On that basis, how do we get an Ancient up the table alongside assault troops? To me, there's 2 consistent options that stand out the most.

 

A Primaris Ancient can jump out of an Impulsor and across the table to back up those Vanguard Veterans or Bladeguard (if you managed to get them up that quickly).

 

The other option is a Terminator Ancient dropping down close enough to boost up troops and possibly Canticle of Hate pulling into melee from a teleport.

 

Other Ancients, the Chapter and Company Ancients we can take, can jump out of a Rhino and get up the table fairly far turn 2, but this has more variables attached naturally.

 

The Chaplain trick with a Drop Pod is a definite option, though, thus meaning we can get all our Ancients into position but then we are paying points for this sort of thing now.

 

***

 

So what thoughts to people want to share about our Relics that leap out at them?

 

Always good to get the brain matter firing on these interesting topics.

 

I'm looking forward to what our super competitive and qualified forum members can contribute to this :)

Edited May 5, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[greatcrusade08]

Hi Idaho

I really like helm of censure.

 

but i quite like soldiers blade for making less competitive characters better, reiver/phobos characters etc, combined with imperiums sword trait, makes them half decent

[Captain Idaho]

Hey mate, great to see you on here again. We need to meet up again, like the old days :)

 

***

 

Soldiers Blade is designed to give our Phobos armoured characters some killing power in melee. It's good for that. Bit meagre for other characters but ideal for that.

 

Good catch, missed that.

[greatcrusade08]

Hey mate, great to see you on here again. We need to meet up again, like the old days

 

***

 

Soldiers Blade is designed to give our Phobos armoured characters some killing power in melee. It's good for that. Bit meagre for other characters but ideal for that.

 

Good catch, missed that.

 

Absolutely,  signed up to serious geeks, been stalking you from the shadows :p

 

Yeah i realize the intent here is to think competitively, and whilst phobos characters arent top tier, there are some good combos, the reiver lt with the combo mentioned above and -ld debuff, has some potential.

Lacks a reliable delivery system however

[crazyterran]

I like the Sanctic Halo if you want your Captain to be more survivable and you were not planning on taking a Librarian to counteract the opponents Psykers. 

 

Some Psychic protection is always nice compared to no psychic protection. 

 

Other than that I think all of our top picks were already covered here - unless we also include the Seal of Oaths, to give us better odds on killing the opponents big threatening model as soon as possible. 

 

My current list has a Bike Captain with the Vengeance of Ultramar/Paragon of War. Sometimes I do feel the hurt on it a bit since I do like my Forge World and i suck alot of CP out of my lists taking my big stompy bois and my winged bricks, but it is what it is. The Bike Captain is just fun, after all!

[Captain Idaho]

Ah thanks for the sub! Always appreciated.

 

Anyway I definitely think there's space for semi competitive advice. I play lots of games where a more casual army but players playing to win is great fun.

 

In those sorts of games a slightly less efficient Relic can still have some mileage.

 

:)

[Frater Cornelius]

@Cpt Idaho - I disagree on the usage of the banner, as you described it in the OP. Building UM as a dedicated melee army is sub-optimal. There is very little in the UM book that supports that and they simple can't handle other dedicated melee armies. I noticed that when I tried to write a melee-focused Emperor's Spears list. What UM do well is ye olde battle pile, with Auras and ways to support each other with rules like Nobility Made Manifest or Defensive Focus. Melee is a defensive tool here, not an offensive one.

 

Unlike conventional shooty armies, SM in general and UM in particular are capable of having a decent punch without having to sacrifice their shooting.The banner allows units like Intercessors to punch above their weight, especially with Squad Doctrines or Ventris + Adaptive Strategy. It increases the combat potential of Redemptors and it makes MSU roadblock units like BGV, Victrix or Aggressors fairly nasty for their points. This makes defending objectives easier and may give you that edge in damage output during the late-game scrap.

 

Besides, don't forget that the Chapter Ancient can hand out super-Obsec and +1 to hit in melee, on top of the, admittedly marginal, benefit of an action on death on a 4+. It a great force-multiplying model, but it has to compete with the Chief Apothecary, being also a character in the Elite slot, which is its biggest downside and probably the reason we do not see many Ancients at all. You could take both, but that would put you at a minimum of 4 characters in a Battalion (5 with Guilliman), and you don't want to give away free Assassinate points. Victrix or not, a dedicated attempt to remove characters will usually succeed.

 

For example, take 20 Intercessors, Tiggy with Fortress, a Captain with Seal of Oath (very good with Inspiring Command), 2x3 BVG or 2-3x2 Victrix, at least one Dread to replace a Lieutenant with Wisdom of the Ancients, and voilà, you have a nice blob to house the Ancient and a good basis to build on.

 

Tl,dr: Banner makes shooty units choppy and comparably insignificant units significant, adding good melee output to what in essence is a shooty army.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

Well, I certainly wouldn't suggest building Ultramarines as a dedicated melee army. Rather, I would have some solid melee components if I was using the Standard of Macragge Inviolate.

 

I also acknowledge that Ultramarines are pretty good at midfield marches with solid lines of infantry. The Ancient can definitely do some work for that but I don't much like hordes of Marines relying on S4 and marching up the table.

 

What I do advocate is Ultramarines as a combined arms force with multiple methods of projecting force. Strong melee is part of that.

 

As an Ultramarines player, of course I don't just load up on Vanguard. But having a unit around, or a large Terminator squad, certainly provides the army with some punch.

 

Sure you won't get +1 to wound or damage, but meh you'll still carve through stuff, especially with the Standard of Macragge Inviolate.

 

Terminator squads in particular speak to me in this regard. Storm Bolters for shooting to take advantage of being Ultramarines, then a solid melee option to follow it up. Very Ultramariney. And the buffs that can be applied with Strategums and characters makes them hit hard both shooting and close combat.

 

Not that I think you're wrong. The methods you described are very effective. I just like to think there are additional methods to being effective with Ultramarines.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Cpt Idaho - In that case, I wouldn't go VV. They would be too fast and the tools for making it work (regular Ancient in Pod, etc.) makes it a bit too convoluted. UM are still a battle pile army. This is the way. A unit of TDA I can get behind. Or 2x5 BGV. I still thing that UM will be at a disadvantage if they actively try to push the melee blob aggressively. But going for a midfield punchline (get it?) and doing the melee thing reactively sound viable.

 

You could have a bait unit in front of the TDA blob and Nobility Made Manifest the opponent to counter or prevent the charge altogether, then charge them. The Chapter Ancient can be quite spicy with a TDA blob as it can counteract the TH to hit malus and make them ObSec in one package. Your midfield blob could consist of 10 TDA, 2 Redemptors, a Captain with Seal, an Ancient and a Chief Apothecary. If you take Rites of War, you probably won't need to upgrade the Ancient either and rely on Fury of the First instead. Throw in two units of Victrix and then go about the usual UM business, i.e. Intercessors and whathaveyou. I suppose there could be an argument for Calgar, but I don't think he is worth the points right now. I guess a Gravis CM will do just as well, or TDA CM for flavour. I also wonder if there is an argument for mixing in Stormbolters. Say, 5 SB/PF guys, the sergeant, 4 TH/SS dudes. They would essentially be Firstborn Aggressors.

 

Alternatively, go 2x5 BGV, and pack the BG Ancient for that juicy +1hit. Opens up Transhuman, so there's that.

 

That army would probably benefit from Phobos Troops (10 Int and 2x5 Infiltrators/Incursors instead of 20 Intercessors) and/or Suppressors to get into the backfield for objectives, Scramblers, etc.

 

What makes this unique compared to, say, WS? Better Troops game, better character support, better dakka, Seal, Rapid Redeployment, at the cost of melee performance (especially T3 onwards) and speed. I guess that is a fair trade. You have spicier midfield game, but your backfield pressure would still come from dakka. Since you still need to play objectives and since you have Oath of Moment secondary, I'd say that is manageable.

 

The one thing that really worries me is the match-up against transport-based armies like Harlies and DE. Can you fit in enough dakka to demech the opponent?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ultramarines are excellent as a counter assault army using a mix of units buffed up to the gill. Shooting is still what we do best.

[Captain Idaho]

It's cool we are all in agreement that the Standard of Macragge Inviolate has become quite effective for 9th edition. :) lots of stuff to unpack and maybe in another thread I'll start...

 

***

 

Seal of Oath as mentioned above by my Frater here, definitely a good Relic. Still does the trick since so much of our army is core.

 

***

 

I'm still not convinced by the likes of Digital Weapons or Hellfury Bolts. Not because they're bad exactly, but because we can get so much better Relics we don't have space for them. Shame really as I like their utility and theme, but they just don't do much for a character.

 

Maybe as part of an Honoured Sergeant upgrade when Mastercrafted is being used elsewhere?

[Frater Cornelius]

Cpt Idaho - Another thought after sleeping on it. You could just throw all caution to the wind and go Baals to wall with 3x5 Stormbolter TDA. At 190 a pop, they are reasonable, 200 if you pack the AsC. You lose out on the very juicy SS buff, but you get yourself some solid dakka. If you want to run them spread out, then the Chief Apo won't be as effective. Here is the prime opportunity for the TDA Chapter Ancient and a TDA Captain with either the Relic SB or Armour of Conor. Say, one unit of 5 chills with the main force and two units of 5 deep strike with the Ancient and Captain. Or just march with all three and do some serious dakka on the way.

 

I think you can do some interesting shenanigans there. Compared to the advancing TH/SS melee TDA blob though, I am struggling to think how the above benefits from being UM, because to me it just seems like discount DA, who do the deep strike with banner game much better with Inner Circle, mobile Apothecaries and the -1D banner. UM are still kings of the battle pile though. But if you're prepared to sacrifice efficieny for flavour (which you should, because otherwise you might as well play chess), then both ways are pretty cool.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

Righty oh, had some playtesting of some combinations and all though that's largely for another topic, my experience with the Censured Helm was phenomenal!

 

I gave it to a Captain in Terminator armour, Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer. I also gave him the Imperium's Sword and with a nearby Chaplain got +2 to charge (alongside a big squad of Terminators).

 

He was netting 6 wounds a turn! Bjorn down to 2 wounds in a turn, a dead squad or Thunder Wolves and a dead Wolf Lord on Thunder Wolf all at his feet.

 

Due to the teleport, the Imperium's Sword and Chaplain combo giving him consistency in delivery, emphasis on the "smash Captain" part with the Censured Helm makes for a potent offensive capacity.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think smash captains still rate high on the competitive side… I like to make mine a chapter master so he is more of a generalist.

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed. A Smash Captain is still going to be powerful, it's just the delivery system that people struggle to find points for. Getting a Terminator Captain into combat this edition became really affordable.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you make him a chapter master he can take the angel artifice relic for the 1+ armor save with a storm shield… plus +1T and +1W… that’s spicy meatball.

[Captain Idaho]

I was tempted...

 

Iron Resolve alongside that for an additional wound and ignore wounds on a 6+. Very spicy.

 

Though to be fair, since the Terminator Captain already has a 2+, Angel Artifice is best suited to Biker, Jump Pack and Gravis Captains. The Gravis and Biker Captains get T6 whilst all get an improved save.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

T5 is huge imo making most attacks wound on 3+ at best. And I love the +1 save… he waded through several squads of WS vanguard vets this past weekend.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Captain Idaho]

Cor you are selling it to me.