Why the Emperor did not reveal himself until the time he did

[Just123456]

 

 

 

 

Just a gentle reminder to be considerate to each other's opinions and it is certainly much easier to get your point across if you provide a quote so people can directly read what you're referencing.

Now, a few thoughts on this subject. From my interactions with A D-B I can make a reasonable presumption he doesn't tend to talk in absolutes on many enigmatic subjects.

Even the link above isn't an absolute. He mentions Alan Bligh holding the theory the Emperor is a weapon from the DAoT and that we can "pretty safely say" which is leading but not absolute.

But that doesn't mean the Emperor can't be a being that existed prior to it and a force tried to use him as a weapon in the DAoT either. Or the interpretation of the word weapon is even literal.

After all, you don't have to be a creation or adaption of something or someone to be referred to as a weapon because of your actions or intent or even alliance of ideals.

The variables are not absolutes, which is the key here. The Emperor is or isn't a weapon is too black and white.

 

ADB said his friend was fond of it. He only put it in his book as a cheeky nod. He did not mean they viewed it seriously.

It's just as serious and valid as any other theory in 40k, and you don't speak for ADB. Idaho is completely correct on all counts. Stop looking for certainty in a setting where it literally does not exist. Your constant posts attempting to shoot down anything that doesn't fit with your worldview is becoming rather tiresome, both here and in the BL forum.

The whole setting runs on unreliable narrators.

It's extremely unlikely, as most of those things in the setting are. I did not say it was mathematically impossible.

Cool, so stop making stuff up and twisting facts. Where exactly did ADB say that he only put it in his book as a "cheeky nod", or that he "did not mean they viewed it seriously"? AB made it very obvious at events that it was his favourite theory, so quit posting nonsense. You have your views, fine. But that's all they are - opinions.

Merely because his friend was fond of it doesn't mean they viewed it seriously. ADB put it in his book when his friend died.

 

A whole bunch of people on Reddit and other places said ADB put the lines in his book for his friend and that it was not meant to completely serious. It's not impossible, only highly unlikely.

 

Though you are mostly right.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Just123456

[Marshal Loss]

 

Merely because his friend was fond of it doesn't mean they viewed it seriously. ADB put it in his book when his friend died.

"Merely because his friend was fond of it"? You're using your own words to obfuscate the truth yet again. Direct quote from ADB:

 

Also, I never said he was something from the Dark Age of Technology. A character in a novel suggests it's plausible. Which, to her, it is. And it was a favourite theory of Alan Bligh.

 

It's just as valid as any other theory that appears in any other novel in this setting.

 

A whole bunch of people on Reddit and other places said ADB put the lines in his book for his friend and that it was not meant to completely serious. It's not impossible, only highly unlikely.

Nowhere on Reddit (or the internet, or anywhere) will you find ADB saying that it was "not meant to be completely serious". Nowhere. That's completely antithetical to his approach to the setting. Either dig up a quote or stop because "a whole bunch of people on Reddit and other places" is not a source. It is absolutely 100% completely serious. That it isn't the most likely theory or that there is a significant amount of other evidence contradicting it does not make it somehow unserious. I'll ask you again: stop making things up.

 

 

Though you are mostly right.

I'm completely right, because I'm not interested in proving which theory is more or less likely than any other. My point is simple: stop making things up to substantiate your views, because saying things like "it was not meant to be completely serious" when you don't know that at all creates an illusion of false authority that you do not possess. Thanks.

[Just123456]

Merely because his friend was fond of it doesn't mean they viewed it seriously. ADB put it in his book when his friend died.

"Merely because his friend was fond of it"? You're using your own words to obfuscate the truth yet again. Direct quote from ADB:

 

Also, I never said he was something from the Dark Age of Technology. A character in a novel suggests it's plausible. Which, to her, it is. And it was a favourite theory of Alan Bligh.

It's just as valid as any other theory that appears in any other novel in this setting.

 

A whole bunch of people on Reddit and other places said ADB put the lines in his book for his friend and that it was not meant to completely serious. It's not impossible, only highly unlikely.

Nowhere on Reddit (or the internet, or anywhere) will you find ADB saying that it was "not meant to be completely serious". Nowhere. That's completely antithetical to his approach to the setting. Either dig up a quote or stop because "a whole bunch of people on Reddit and other places" is not a source. It is absolutely 100% completely serious. That it isn't the most likely theory or that there is a significant amount of other evidence contradicting it does not make it somehow unserious. I'll ask you again: stop making things up.

 

 

Though you are mostly right.

I'm completely right, because I'm not interested in proving which theory is more or less likely than any other. My point is simple: stop making things up to substantiate your views, because saying things like "it was not meant to be completely serious" when you don't know that at all creates an illusion of false authority that you do not possess. Thanks.

I said a whole lot of people on Reddit said that, not ADB.

 

I might have twisted a few words, but I was not deceptive. And it's as valid as any of those things in the setting, so it's highly unlikely.

 

And you cannot prove ADB wanted it to be completely serious.

 

I am sorry for the hassle.

 

I can dig up links where people on Reddit and other places said that. And the notion inside the setting is from a character who would more than likely deliberately mislead. The way ADB words what he said most certainly doesn't instantly mean it was meant to be serious.

Thanks, that was what I was trying to convey.

To add more to the point, the Perpetuals knowing the Emperor before DAoT means nothing on a galaxy where slaaneshi cultists where around before Slaanesh was born. Time has no meaning in the warp.

Whatever ADB said, years later the same idea is earnestly repeated by another character in another novel by another author. It's neither proven nor disproven, but it's there.

The C'tan's words are extremely vague at best. There is little reason to think it was talking about the DAOT and a lot of reasons to think it MIGHT not have been. Especially given how different and divorced a C'tan's mind and perspective is from a mortal's. There was nothing about the DAOT in the lines.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Slips

[Scammel]

Also, I never said he was something from the Dark Age of Technology. A character in a novel suggests it's plausible. Which, to her, it is.

 

The text in bold is the critical part. The point about unreliable narrators often isn't that they're completely wrong and thus completely useless - it's that, tucked away in the obfuscation and misinformation, you can often hide some very important detail. In this instance, the character has reason to believe that the Emperor didn't simply reveal Himself of His own volition, and she's interpreted events as the discovery or awakening of an old weapon. Her interpretation may well be wrong, but there's clearly something at play here if she's not buying into the 'returned shepherd' narrative.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Scammel

[SkimaskMohawk]

Alan Bligh told me that ol was a calth native and the word bearers ritual made him and anyone near him hallucinate crazy stuff.

[Arendious]

Alan Bligh told me that ol was a calth native and the word bearers ritual made him and anyone near him hallucinate crazy stuff.

Grammaticus becomes problematic in this scenario, then. Either the Cabal gives him false memories of a random Calth dude, or the amount of warp-coincidence becomes silly.

[Captain Idaho]

I believe the point was being made that someone's post is a loose reference point to the facts behind a narrative.

 

***

 

Incidentally, my own thoughts on the Emperor is he is a gestalt being, either by design or even evolution independently of the Shaman narrative.

 

On that basis, the "truth" is wholly dependent on which facet of the Emperor your context and experience oriented from.

 

It's possible part of him really is a weapon assimilated into a greater whole.

 

Even without Him being such a gestalt amalgamation of beings, it's possible he assimilated a Dark Age of Technology weapon or ability into his own being, or consumed a warp entity regarded as such.

 

It's deliciously duplicitous and ambiguous.

 

:)

Edited June 14, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Just123456]

 

Also, I never said he was something from the Dark Age of Technology. A character in a novel suggests it's plausible. Which, to her, it is.

 

The text in bold is the critical part. The point about unreliable narrators often isn't that they're completely wrong and thus completely useless - it's that, tucked away in the obfuscation and misinformation, you can often hide some very important detail. In this instance, the character has reason to believe that the Emperor didn't simply reveal Himself of His own volition, and she's interpreted events as the discovery or awakening of an old weapon. Her interpretation may well be wrong, but there's clearly something at play here if she's not buying into the 'returned shepherd' narrative.

You were wrong about her having no reason to deliberately mislead. A lot of people will talk poppycock when they know they will die. You can say she wanted to tick off Valdor, hurt him in anyway she can.

 

I disagree when ADB said she thinks that. A character of her history, being a deceitful thug who stole Earth's water and guilty of other war crimes, and being executed for all that, would most certainly have reasons to deliberately mislead.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Just123456

[jeremy1391]

If he would of revealed himself during the dark age of technology he could of been taken out pretty easily with the insane weapons that were available at the time.

[Just123456]

I believe the point was being made that someone's post is a loose reference point to the facts behind a narrative.

***

Incidentally, my own thoughts on the Emperor is he is a gestalt being, either by design or even evolution independently of the Shaman narrative.

On that basis, the "truth" is wholly dependent on which facet of the Emperor your context and experience oriented from.

It's possible part of him really is a weapon assimilated into a greater whole.

Even without Him being such a gestalt amalgamation of beings, it's possible he assimilated a Dark Age of Technology weapon or ability into his own being, or consumed a warp entity regarded as such.

It's deliciously duplicitous and ambiguous.

:)

That is basically what he did. He stole strength from the Chaos Gods at Molech only a little bit before he revealed himself. Even Oll Persson in Mortis said the Emperor was a lot less strong in the Tower of Babel times than he is in the 30th millennium and beyond.

 

What you said about him getting strength amped at that time is basically fact as it is.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Just123456

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I remember Molech. His deal with the devil.

 

I'm sure there are other ways he's stolen power too ;)

[Just123456]

Yeah I remember Molech. His deal with the devil.

I'm sure there are other ways he's stolen power too ;)

He might have.

[Gorgoff]

Yeah I remember Molech. His deal with the devil.

 

I'm sure there are other ways he's stolen power too

At least he horded some tech from the Dark Age of Technology but not so much, as you would expect.

That part bugged me for a very long time, but luckily I saw a movie (The Man from Earth) which explained it pretty much.

In that movie a man claims to be a 14.000 years old immortal and this very question came up.

Why didn't you kept anything from back then.

His answer was simple: Would/could you keep a pen for thousands of years?

 

But I guess lots of the genetic works he made was only possible because he gained this knowledge back in the days.

[Scammel]

 

Yeah I remember Molech. His deal with the devil.

 

I'm sure there are other ways he's stolen power too

At least he horded some tech from the Dark Age of Technology but not so much, as you would expect.

That part bugged me for a very long time, but luckily I saw a movie (The Man from Earth) which explained it pretty much.

In that movie a man claims to be a 14.000 years old immortal and this very question came up.

Why didn't you kept anything from back then.

His answer was simple: Would/could you keep a pen for thousands of years?

 

But I guess lots of the genetic works he made was only possible because he gained this knowledge back in the days.

 

Much of it, for certain, but I always enjoyed the irony of the implied fact that the Primarchs and Space Marines were ultimately only possible through knowledge imparted by the Chaos Gods. Humanity's greatest warriors are but creatures of the Eye.

[Just123456]

 

Yeah I remember Molech. His deal with the devil.

I'm sure there are other ways he's stolen power too ;)

 

At least he horded some tech from the Dark Age of Technology but not so much, as you would expect.

That part bugged me for a very long time, but luckily I saw a movie (The Man from Earth) which explained it pretty much.

In that movie a man claims to be a 14.000 years old immortal and this very question came up.

Why didn't you kept anything from back then.

His answer was simple: Would/could you keep a pen for thousands of years?

 

But I guess lots of the genetic works he made was only possible because he gained this knowledge back in the days.

He has the Dark Cells and the Dark Cells have technology that can destroy the whole galaxy. There might STCs in them. Edited June 16, 2021 by Just123456

[Captain Idaho]

 

 

Yeah I remember Molech. His deal with the devil.

I'm sure there are other ways he's stolen power too ;)

 

At least he horded some tech from the Dark Age of Technology but not so much, as you would expect.

That part bugged me for a very long time, but luckily I saw a movie (The Man from Earth) which explained it pretty much.

In that movie a man claims to be a 14.000 years old immortal and this very question came up.

Why didn't you kept anything from back then.

His answer was simple: Would/could you keep a pen for thousands of years?

 

But I guess lots of the genetic works he made was only possible because he gained this knowledge back in the days.

Much of it, for certain, but I always enjoyed the irony of the implied fact that the Primarchs and Space Marines were ultimately only possible through knowledge imparted by the Chaos Gods. Humanity's greatest warriors are but creatures of the Eye.

Knowledge is a definitive term. I feel like it's more complex and incorpeal than that. Perhaps the Primarchs are the "greater daemons" of the Emperor...?

[Just123456]

 

 

Yeah I remember Molech. His deal with the devil.

I'm sure there are other ways he's stolen power too ;)

 

At least he horded some tech from the Dark Age of Technology but not so much, as you would expect.

That part bugged me for a very long time, but luckily I saw a movie (The Man from Earth) which explained it pretty much.

In that movie a man claims to be a 14.000 years old immortal and this very question came up.

Why didn't you kept anything from back then.

His answer was simple: Would/could you keep a pen for thousands of years?

 

But I guess lots of the genetic works he made was only possible because he gained this knowledge back in the days.

Much of it, for certain, but I always enjoyed the irony of the implied fact that the Primarchs and Space Marines were ultimately only possible through knowledge imparted by the Chaos Gods. Humanity's greatest warriors are but creatures of the Eye.

There are certainly reasons Koja Zu would mislead. She was being defiant and wanted to tick off Valdor.

 

It's feasible there is truth to what she said, but she certainly had reasons to mislead. And you might have read what I said about Molech.

 

I hope it's alright.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Just123456

[Just123456]

 

 

Yeah I remember Molech. His deal with the devil.

I'm sure there are other ways he's stolen power too ;)

 

At least he horded some tech from the Dark Age of Technology but not so much, as you would expect.

That part bugged me for a very long time, but luckily I saw a movie (The Man from Earth) which explained it pretty much.

In that movie a man claims to be a 14.000 years old immortal and this very question came up.

Why didn't you kept anything from back then.

His answer was simple: Would/could you keep a pen for thousands of years?

 

But I guess lots of the genetic works he made was only possible because he gained this knowledge back in the days.

Much of it, for certain, but I always enjoyed the irony of the implied fact that the Primarchs and Space Marines were ultimately only possible through knowledge imparted by the Chaos Gods. Humanity's greatest warriors are but creatures of the Eye.

Koja Zu was being defiant and wanted to tick off Valdor. Can you respond to that? I know there might be a form of truth, but she has reasons to mislead. Edited June 23, 2021 by Just123456

[Captain Idaho]

Consider this - a blatant lie would be an empty insult and just be water off a duck's back for Valdor.

 

Insults work best when they play on the insecurities of the insulted.

[Just123456]

Consider this - a blatant lie would be an empty insult and just be water off a duck's back for Valdor.

Insults work best when they play on the insecurities of the insulted.

What makes you think Koja Zu would know and care about that? People will say a lot of things when they know they will die. She was upset at being executed and wanted to tick off Valdor.

 

Why is it impossible she was misleading? People will say a lot of things when they know they will die. She was being a baby about being executed. She wanted to hurt Valdor in anyway She can. She doesn't realize she cannot.

 

She was being DEFIANT. People who are executed will talk poppycock even when they know it's pointless.

 

There might be a form of truth to what she said, but she is unreliable.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Just123456

[Gorgoff]

Primarchs are like sausages.

You take the pig, kill it, slaughter it and than cook it in it's own ass.

That's what the Emperor did with chaos in a nutshell.

[Captain Idaho]

 

Consider this - a blatant lie would be an empty insult and just be water off a duck's back for Valdor.

Insults work best when they play on the insecurities of the insulted.

What makes you think Koja Zu would know and care about that? People will say a lot of things when they know they will die. She was upset at being executed and wanted to tick off Valdor.

 

Why is it impossible she was misleading? People will say a lot of things when they know they will die. She was being a baby about being executed. She wanted to hurt Valdor in anyway She can. She doesn't realize she cannot.

 

She was being DEFIANT. People who are executed will talk poppycock even when they know it's pointless.

There might be a form of truth to what she said, but she is unreliable.

I agree she is unreliable, but the point still stands - Valdor is so sensitive to a blatant lie even though he's arguably more loyal to the Emperor than ANY of his servants?

 

The only reason Valdor would be upset by someone so unreliable would be if he thought there was truth in it. Otherwise he's just a wimp. ;)

 

If Valdor knows his lord better than anyone and someone throws an accusation at that lord, if it means nothing and is false then he just executes the perp and walks off satisfied.

 

Of course if Valdor is not touched by said last words, it does lean to not being true.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Just123456]

 

 

Consider this - a blatant lie would be an empty insult and just be water off a duck's back for Valdor.

Insults work best when they play on the insecurities of the insulted.

What makes you think Koja Zu would know and care about that? People will say a lot of things when they know they will die. She was upset at being executed and wanted to tick off Valdor.

Why is it impossible she was misleading? People will say a lot of things when they know they will die. She was being a baby about being executed. She wanted to hurt Valdor in anyway She can. She doesn't realize she cannot.

She was being DEFIANT. People who are executed will talk poppycock even when they know it's pointless.

There might be a form of truth to what she said, but she is unreliable.

I agree she is unreliable, but the point still stands - Valdor is so sensitive to a blatant lie even though he's arguably more loyal to the Emperor than ANY of his servants?

The only reason Valdor would be upset by someone so unreliable would be if he thought there was truth in it. Otherwise he's just a wimp. ;)

If Valdor knows his lord better than anyone and someone throws an accusation at that lord, if it means nothing and is false then he just executes the perp and walks off satisfied.

Of course if Valdor is not touched by said last words, it does lean to not being true.

Again, she did NOT know Valdor would think nothing of it. She only wanted to tick him off. You see a lot of people who are executed talking pointless things.

 

Yeah, it's clear that her being unreliable doesn't equate to there not being a form of truth.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Just123456

[SkimaskMohawk]

Idk about you, but I feel like most people understand how to insult and hurt feelings by the time they're...10? You basically either gaslight with complete fabrications or you expose embarassing personal stuff. The truth tends to have longer lasting results.

[Just123456]

Idk about you, but I feel like most people understand how to insult and hurt feelings by the time they're...10? You basically either gaslight with complete fabrications or you expose embarassing personal stuff. The truth tends to have longer lasting results.

Koja Zu wanted to tick off Valdor. She did not realize it wouldn't work.