Artificial "depth" in lore affecting immersion?

[Kastor Krieg]

I've wanted to write and share about this apprehension for the longest time, but right now as I've only managed to browse through the recap of Warhammer Day 2, it hit me again. There's completely new stuff about the completely new type of an armour worn by the completely new character, that's par for the course.

She's a new Lord of Terra as the predecessor got yoinked by the Rift. Cool.

She's the new boss lady of the Sisters. Awesome.
Rob G even gave her a thumbs up! Nice.

But on top all of that, she is so awesomesauce (maybe she is, we have no clue, she's utterly new!) that the Custodes themselves handed her

+ the fabled Lance of Illumination +

And at this point my immersion breaks. What the eight hells of the warp is the Lance of Illumination.

How are we supposed to care that it's oh so fabled if we haven't ever heard a single fable about it's existence.

Why items like those are not at the very least somehow preshadowed in the ton of Heresy and 40k books that mention Banana Boys?

Why no author was asked to spend a paragraph and a half on the description of Custode George doing something fancy with it, like having it shine the Emperor's golden glow and disperse a demon horde or whatever?

 

It's all becoming so... unmoored. We love the setting for the depth and it feels more and more that it's gaining in breadth instead. There's just more but it's as if it was not interconnected properly, narratively. It feels as if the codex-level 40k lore was written by a drunk octopus with each tentacle holding a pen and acting almost completely independently, with only a passing knowledge and recognition of previous events in the lore and minimal need to create reference between the "current" and "past".

I love what's happening in the 30k lore, I eat up the Siege of Terra books one by one and can't wait for the Scouring. At the same time there's heaps upon heaps of "current" lore that I cannot even start to care about, as it's either as shallowly connected to the rest as I've described above or worse, it actively butchers previous lore (hi, my Templar Brothers). 

I wager I'm not alone in this? 

[No Foes Remain]

I think Guiliman and the Custodes have become the new Avatar/Swarmlord.

 

If GW want a character to sound awesome they have them liked by Guiliman and the Custodes or have a gift given to them by Guiliman or the Custodes. I feel like this is a trend we are going to see continue throughout the new releases for the Imperium.

[Brother Casman]

Somewhere in the back of my head, a conversation played out along the lines of:

 

Custodes 1: The Lord Guilliman has appointed a new High Lord of Terra.

 

Custodes 2: Oh yeah? Cool, cool.

 

Custodes 1: I think we're supposed to give them something?

 

Custodes 2: Wait, really?

 

Custodes 1: Yeah, but I've got nothing.

 

Custodes 2: Well, I found this old power spear gathering dust, maybe we could give that? Who is it anyway?

 

Custodes 1: The High Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas. Spear won't do.

 

Custodes 2: Oh. Well, how about the, uh, Lance of Illumination?

 

Custodes 1: Perfect, job's a good 'un.

 

[Kastor Krieg]

Somewhere in the back of my head, a conversation played out along the lines of:

 

Custodes 1: The Lord Guilliman has appointed a new High Lord of Terra.

Custodes 2: Oh yeah? Cool, cool.

Custodes 1: I think we're supposed to give them something?

Custodes 2: Wait, really?

Custodes 1: Yeah, but I've got nothing.

Custodes 2: Well, I found this old power spear gathering dust, maybe we could give that? Who is it anyway?

Custodes 1: The High Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas. Spear won't do.

Custodes 2: Oh. Well, how about the, uh, Lance of Illumination?

Custodes 1: Perfect, job's a good 'un.

 

Add TTS type of Custodes and voiceovers and <chef's kiss> ;)

I think Guiliman and the Custodes have become the new Avatar/Swarmlord.

 

If GW want a character to sound awesome they have them liked by Guiliman and the Custodes or have a gift given to them by Guiliman or the Custodes. I feel like this is a trend we are going to see continue throughout the new releases for the Imperium.

Yeah, because all the setting's glory is seemingly packaged into Girly, so either some rubs off him or there's none.

 

It's an outcome of how over the top he's been written since his return.

[Closet Skeleton]

Its a 10,000 year old society obsessed with relics and opposed to progress.

 

Pretty much everything is 'the fabled X' to somebody.

[Kastor Krieg]

Its a 10,000 year old society obsessed with relics and opposed to progress.

 

Pretty much everything is 'the fabled X' to somebody.

If everything is, then nothing is.

[Matcap86]

Eh the custodes have a whole host just to guard all the relics they have laying about. I have no problem with them finding something laying about. I do agree with you very much that they really need to tie stuff together more. I already hardly read codexes for lore, but nowadays I see 40k game-lore as something only tangentially related to black library novels and vice versa. 

 

Edit, and yeah it does really diminish my enjoyment of the game/setting. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by matcap86

[Dagoth Ur]

I mean, this seems like a lot of brouhaha over something to which we haven't even been able to read the codex blurb about. I'd definitely need more examples of this "issue".

[Tyriks]

I think a bigger issue is that there might not be a codex blurb. The 9th books I've gotten so far are so light on fluff, it's been a major disappointment. Feels like they don't want to bother.

[Karhedron]

I think a bigger issue is that there might not be a codex blurb. The 9th books I've gotten so far are so light on fluff, it's been a major disappointment. Feels like they don't want to bother.

If you want more than a brief summary, I think Black Library is the expected source now.

[Dagoth Ur]

I think a bigger issue is that there might not be a codex blurb. The 9th books I've gotten so far are so light on fluff, it's been a major disappointment. Feels like they don't want to bother.

Fair point, I haven't actually seen a 9th Ed Codex from the inside just yet but what I have heard hasn't been very optimistic.

[redmapa]

This has been a problem with GW lore writers for a long time now, I'd wager since 6th ed at least, they have no will to build a world and are stuck telling us how awesome something is instead of building an impression of this thing so we, as the audience, can come to our own conclusion of how awesome something is. To me that was always the great strength of 40k, a world built by tidbits and small lore blurbs that gave you an impression of something, that made YOU part of the story by giving you space to fill in the wholes, Dark Souls did this in video games but 40k has done it before.

 

There are plenty of instances of GW where big thing happens, big name appears to add gravitas to this thing, then good guys win but at a cost, big name is meaningless as is the whole situation. Psychic Awakening was a series built on this formula, Vigilus did it as well, before that it was the Kau'yon/Mont'ka supplement and Im pretty sure there are others like, the one that comes to mind in recent times is Faith and Fury Psychic Awakening, one would think Kor'Phaeron being in the frontlines would be a momentous action but its literally two pages and nothing happens.

 

I've said this before but GW needs to get better writers, they have them, give the guys that wrote Imperial Armor the reins because Phil Kelly and company are clearly not up to the job.

[Lucerne]

I do find it amusing you could read this as her being Guilliman's lapdog, handed trinkets as a political measure...

[Magos Takatus]

Part of the issue is that there is no way that there were enough plot hooks from back in the 90's/early 2000's to stick new lore to. Back then they had those mysterious phase swords of the C'Tan which provided the link for the star gods of the Necron codex. It becomes a lot harder to base new lore on old lore the bigger the setting gets.

 

I didn't really feel that bothered about the issue but thinking about it there has been background for the Adeptus Mechanicus since the game's inception yet Belisarius Cawl is on of the few players in the lore currently. I suppose there might be more information in the Charadon books but I haven't looked into those yet. There are characters that have existed before but have never been  followed up on. What happened to Mago Delphan Gruss from the Inquisitor game? If Deathwatch can get Captain Artemis I'm sure we can follow a few more of those players and their interesting stories. 

[Azekai]

I think a bigger issue with the fluff is... why is a High Lord of Terra a unit that can be put on a battlefield? That seems super weird. I know it's 40k and authority often equals asskicking, but still. Shouldn't she be off organizing vast swathes of the Imperium rather than piloting her ugly decapitated dreadnought? It's only a matter of time until the Master of the Astronomican is running down heretics with his psi-grav-scooter and the Paternal Envoy of the Navigators is exploding people's brains.
 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Azekai

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Its a 10,000 year old society obsessed with relics and opposed to progress.

 

Pretty much everything is 'the fabled X' to somebody.

If everything is, then nothing is.

 

That was pretty much the case with the real world Catholic Church. Forget the famous stuff like there being enough Pieces of the True Cross to build a boat; even St Valentine has like 200 skulls lying around.

 

Richard the Lionheart just decided some random sword he had was Excalibur and paid people to tell the whole of Europe about it.

 

Random women showing up with 'fabled' weapons that are supposedly important but just blur into an obscure mass of random relics is what 40k should be like.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Doghouse]

 

If you want more than a brief summary, I think Black Library is the expected source now.

 

 

I find this to be a bit of a shame really. The codex should come first and foremost and then the novels should be stories based upon that rather than providing more facts about events than the source. I've found myself lately having to get audiobooks then scouring them to find out how events have played out like the introduction of the Primaris. In the old days their introduction would have been fleshed out in little story boxes, not everyone wants to read novels.

 

For me it feels like when they make films now but to get the full picture you need to read a comic or a book or some other medium as well.

[Mr4Minutes]

I think it’s the clash of GW trying to write new creative stories and lore against the need to market a mini. Rather then take the time to write a more engaging and immersive story that makes the model feel more organic to the existing lore and plot GW marketing pushes the FOMO mindset and boils everything down to “it’s the best.”

 

For me it also doesn’t help that the War Com articles read like click bait titles that are usually released on other gaming sites.

[Trokair]

I think a bigger issue with the fluff is... why is a High Lord of Terra a unit that can be put on a battlefield? That seems super weird. I know it's 40k and authority often equals asskicking, but still. Shouldn't she be off organizing vast swathes of the Imperium rather than piloting her ugly decapitated dreadnought? It's only a matter of time until the Master of the Astronomican is running down heretics with his psi-grav-scooter and the Paternal Envoy of the Navigators is exploding people's brains.

 

Well technically Trajann is a High Lord of Terra, and we have been able to put him on our tables for a while.

[sitnam]

I think a bigger issue with the fluff is... why is a High Lord of Terra a unit that can be put on a battlefield? That seems super weird. I know it's 40k and authority often equals asskicking, but still. Shouldn't she be off organizing vast swathes of the Imperium rather than piloting her ugly decapitated dreadnought? It's only a matter of time until the Master of the Astronomican is running down heretics with his psi-grav-scooter and the Paternal Envoy of the Navigators is exploding people's brains.

 

I think it completely fits into the theme and character of the Sororitas. The position is not seen as an honor by the Sisters, but instead a great burden, and they would much rather be out fighting. She might be a High Lord, but she is also Abess Sanctorum. She leads one of the prominent fighting forces of the Imperium. Both Trajann and Guilliman are already High lords, this criticism could equally apply to them.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

This isn't a new phenomenon.

Were you around in the mid to late 2000s when sanguinor, astorath, and sanguinary guard were all introduced?

 

Just all of a sudden SG date back to the heresy, sanguinor has been around for basically as long, and astorath isn't new, he's been around for hundreds of years...

Edited May 4, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Marshal Rohr]

Introducing something new, giving it a history out of nowhere and then having other people treat it as important is the definition of world building.

[chapter master 454]

Only concern is if the spear would be plausibly wielded by someone not in that specifically sized of a suit. Like, you know...had some sort of repurposing of it (wouldn't be wieldable by a normal human sort of size) from being used by super-humans who are 8-10 feet tall.

 

In regards to lore, I feel the level of importance is...well important to remember. When the blood angels got Sanginour, SG and astaroth, their level of importance was fairly low relatively speaking, it affects the blood angels and helped expand and explore their lore. They are after a fairly central chapter (and former legion) of warhammer lore that has had effects echoing from one singular event.

 

This woman is fairly unimportant I would say however. She helps us get a road into exploring what the high lords may be like and could even lead to us seeing other high lords become more notable rather than somewhat vague shadow council members that get joked about as being fairly impotent and for some reason explode all the time (it is quite suspious you have to agree).

 

It could be asked why is she out and about doing butt-kicking? Well likely a similar thing to what Gulliman did with the Custodes: there isn't room for lay abouts, get out there and fight for the emperor instead of bickering over new laws! I would agree we could of skipped the lance part, really in my opinion it actually weakens her image greatly that she would even need such a thing pointed out. I mean, she is a high lord; that should speak for itself, not a lance. However for some reason she needs to be acknowledged by the Custodes themselves for some reason which is odd considering the Custodes don't really like the religious nutters of the universe (their closet thing to any mythos is their misercordias).

 

 

She does look good and the paragon warsuits look much better than the grey knight baby walker (I think its the fact it covers the legs helps).

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think a bigger issue with the fluff is... why is a High Lord of Terra a unit that can be put on a battlefield? That seems super weird. I know it's 40k and authority often equals asskicking, but still. Shouldn't she be off organizing vast swathes of the Imperium rather than piloting her ugly decapitated dreadnought? It's only a matter of time until the Master of the Astronomican is running down heretics with his psi-grav-scooter and the Paternal Envoy of the Navigators is exploding people's brains.

 

same stupid reason a primarch is.

[Tyriks]

 

I think a bigger issue is that there might not be a codex blurb. The 9th books I've gotten so far are so light on fluff, it's been a major disappointment. Feels like they don't want to bother.

If you want more than a brief summary, I think Black Library is the expected source now.

That could work if they actually wrote books about any of it. If they did a book that culminated with the awakening of the Void Dragon I'd buy it for sure. But I'm not holding my breath on that, and at the moment we don't even have a paragraph about it. It's just... here