Artificial "depth" in lore affecting immersion?

[Marshal Rohr]

The bureaucratic high lord that governs the Sisters of Battle is the Ecclesiarchal Representative or Cardinal Solar Maximus or whatever it’s called. She’s just a high lord in the same way there’s like two dozen high lords and only 12 or something actually run the imperium. The rest just provide input and do other things.

 

Even if she exists and has an executive position over the Soroitas, they still fall under the Church

Edited May 6, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Noserenda]

Tbh given the tangled web of the Adeptas i would not be surprised to hear a few more of them are technically subordinates but they only get to be High Lords if they actually sit on the council, the list of potential High lords is always larger than the number of chairs after all ;) 

[sitnam]

The bureaucratic high lord that governs the Sisters of Battle is the Ecclesiarchal Representative or Cardinal Solar Maximus or whatever it’s called. She’s just a high lord in the same way there’s like two dozen high lords and only 12 or something actually run the imperium. The rest just provide input and do other things.

 

Even if she exists and has an executive position over the Soroitas, they still fall under the Church

That’s not true. First, there are only 12 High Lords, and she is one of them. Second, the Ecclesiarchy doesn’t have absolute authority over the Sororitas. The Abbess is the supreme commander, and if any Cardinal or even the Ecclesiarch start pulling anything questionable the Sororitas are likely to burn him. The Sisters are the militant arm to protect the faith, and that includes from internal threats

 

A good example is the Our Martyred Lady audio book without going into spoilers, the Sisters had a profound disagreement with some high ranking priests

 

Yeah a lot of people missing the point that a good general/ leader doesn't necessarily need to be directly in the front line, elbow deep in heretics. Another good example is an IG commander, they never needs to leave the command table if they have done their job properly, unless something really bad has happened. More so for a High Lord of Terra no less.

Creed was the high commander of Cadia and knee deep in the action, and fieldable on the table. Likewise for Lord Solar Macharius. Hell, even Juneth Euretia fits this bill to an extant, being the master of an entire Order Edited May 7, 2021 by sitnam

[Marshal Rohr]

There are more than 12 High Lords

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Senatorum_Imperialis

[sitnam]

There are more than 12 High Lords

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Senatorum_Imperialis

 

Read your source:

 

 

 

The Senatorum Imperialis (officially the Lords Temporal, Martial and Ecclesiarchical of the Most Divine and Righteous Imperium of Mankind[20]) collectively form the Council of the High Lords of Terra. The Senatorum is an Imperial governing body led by twelve leaders of the most powerful organisations of the Imperium. This body rules the Imperium in the Emperor's name. The Senatorum itself is composed of tens of thousands of Imperial dignitaries, nobleman, lords, and other officials, but these rarely meet and instead the "High Twelve" conduct the vast majority of affairs.

 

The Senatorum Imperialis is formed from a vast number of officials, but it it the twelve High Lords that lead the Senatorum itself and have most of the power. Further down:

 

 

 

Determining who will hold the position of High Lord has resulted in millennia of political intrigue between the various bureaucracies seeking to increase their power. However, some organisations are so powerful, so fundamentally important to the Imperium, that their position on the Council is considered sacrosanct. For this reason the following nine offices are almost always represented as High Lords

 

It goes on to list nine key officials, such as the Fabricator General, Ecclesiarch, etc. Due to the power and influence they wield, they are almost always on the High lords.

 

 

 

The remaining three positions are most likely to be filled from among the following powerful leaders

 

This goes on to list several other key positions that seem to rotate in influence. Most notable among this list is that it lists several supreme military leaders: Astra Militarum, Adeptus Custodes, Adepta Sororitas, and Imperial Navy. 

 

Now let's look at what it lists as the current High Lords:

 

 

 

• Roboute Guilliman — Lord Commander of the Imperium, Imperial Regent, & Lord Militant of the High Twelve
• Trajann Valoris — Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes
• Violeta Roskavler — Master of the Administratum
• Lucius Throde — Master of the Astronomican
• Zlatad Aph Kerapliades — Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica
• Eos Ritira — Ecclesiarch
• Kleopatra Arx — Inquisitorial Representative
• Kadak Mir — Paternoval Envoy
• Oud Oudia Raskian — Fabricator-General
• Aveliza Drachmar — Grand Provost Marshal (Latern slain in the Hexarchy's coup attempt)
• Mar Av Ashariel - Lord Commander Militant (Later slain in the Hexarchy's coup attempt)
• Merelda Pereth — Lord High Admiral (Later slain in the Hexarchy's coup attempt)
• Fadix — Grand Master of Assassins
• Morvenn Vahl - Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas
• Theromestes Xempyre Kleng - Unknown position

 

So this list actually has fifteen names, but three are killed, bringing us back down to the "High Twelve". So the current Abbess is definitely a High Lord, of equal stature to the Ecclesiarch

Edited May 7, 2021 by sitnam

[Marshal Rohr]

I guess we will have to see.

[TrawlingCleaner]

One and only nudge for this topic, this isn't the thread to discuss misogyny in the hobby/wider hobby/other hobby sites. As per the Rules of the B&C:

No off topic discussions

We're here to discuss the hobby, not politics, nationalism, religion, sexuality or moral/ethical debates (or cars, or sports, or the latest movie, etc.). 

 

This thread is specifically about depth in lore affecting immersion

[Stofficus]

So, in an effort to steer this particular ship back on track, and perhaps add something to the conversation;

 

I'd argue its less "artifical depth" and more "superhero syndrome." 

 

40k fluff has become increasingly character-centric - where once named characters were rarely the biggest, most powerful figures (for the longest time, Abaddon was the only galactic-level leader in the game, with an argument for Eldrad), and instead were representations of specific factions, or tied to some specific event. 

 

The actual stories of the time used characters to offer a point of view, but 40k's whole theme was the individual didn't really matter - even Abaddon was an avatar for the Dark Gods, Eldrad was an actor of fate and so on. 

 

Nowadays though, it's much easier for GW to write a story about how a cast of Marvel style heroes beat down their enemies, and the universe is decided via fist fight. Now that gets pretty boring when it's just Guilliman, Magnus and Mortarian fighting over and over, so they need to add a cast of "lesser heroes," your Black Widows and Warmongers if you will, to have their adventures and fights alongside the main cast. 

 

Since GW tends to straddle comic-book style world building (it grew out of 2000AD after all, amongst others) and classical myth, legendary equipment goes part and parcel with that. So not only do new epic-level cast need to be introduced (especially when adding new factions or heavily revamping them) but their equipment needs to have equal gravitas to Mjolnir or Excalibur, so enter little blurbs about how their blessed by, or gifted by, the A List characters. 

 

I view this trend of previously unheard of characters and relics gifted by the Custodies, Guilliman or Cawl just a symptom of a wider trend, rather than the issue itself; 40k has increasingly become the Imperium's Avengers (hell, Guilliman's nickname is The Avenging Son...). 

 

The story will always need "new" injected into it, and at first it'll always feel a bit awkward as, ultimately, 40k is built on retcons, as it is still a mostly-static universe, which are never easy to swallow, even when needed and well executed. What makes it, at times, cringy or insufferable is how it always needs to get linked back to a cast of superheroes holding the universe together by force of will. Even the Primarchs don't feature as centrally in 30k as Guilliman and Cawl do in 40k, and these central characters don't get anywhere near the same kind of nuanced or interesting development as the literal cast of demigods do in 30k. 

 

Maybe that will come in time, and as more new cast are introduced it will feel less simplistic, but time will tell - and G&C have been with us now for several years, and we still don't have a good grip on how Guilliman is coping with the insanity that is the 41st Millenium, or really what Cawl's deal is, so I'm not optimistic about whomever gets introduced to be avatars of the Guard, Sisters and so on. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Stofficus

[Monstra Sumus]

@TrawlingCleaner I can hear the melta loud and clear

[Schlitzaf]

Also just to make a reference all those complaining:

Where hou complaining when Codex Black Templars came out and Grimaldus Cenobytes has 3 immensely holiest of Imperium (well Armageddon artifacts)?

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

This is the natural evolution of GW lore writing, it was always a little like this even back in the day, but it veered sharply in this direction perhaps around 5E when people started complaining about Ward and Draigo and Calgar.

 

Used to be Forge World would inject a fresh breath of grimdark and give you gritty characters who just happened to be spotlighted because they were lucky enough to survive a few centuries longer and kill more enemies than the other guy, fighting over what is essentially nothing in a middle-of-nowhere sector in the vast galaxy, and if it weren't for the fact that they had a name and starred in a piece of writing, they may as well be nameless officer X and Brother Captain Y, but alas, we haven't gotten an Imperial Armour in a while.

[Stofficus]

This is the natural evolution of GW lore writing, it was always a little like this even back in the day, but it veered sharply in this direction perhaps around 5E when people started complaining about Ward and Draigo and Calgar.

 

Used to be Forge World would inject a fresh breath of grimdark and give you gritty characters who just happened to be spotlighted because they were lucky enough to survive a few centuries longer and kill more enemies than the other guy, fighting over what is essentially nothing in a middle-of-nowhere sector in the vast galaxy, and if it weren't for the fact that they had a name and starred in a piece of writing, they may as well be nameless officer X and Brother Captain Y, but alas, we haven't gotten an Imperial Armour in a while.

 

That reminds me of my favourite counterpoint character fluff: 

 

Marshal Karis Venner, from IA12: The Fall of Orpheus. A named character by virtue of commanding his unit for an unprecedented 12 years, having been nearly killed 3 times. 

 

It takes astartes centuries of service to achieved special character status, while it takes the Guard merely half a modern standard military career. 

[Matcap86]

I don't think anyone here is either angry, or opposing new parts of fluff.

 

For me I think Stofficus is nailing it. The storytelling seems to have moved on from being setting based to being (superhero) character based. I don't really care for Marvel type storytelling so maybe that irks me.

 

I prefer the "Badab Wars" with characters that play a role in the event to "The adventures of Lufgt" if that makes sense.

Edited May 8, 2021 by matcap86

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Yeah a lot of people missing the point that a good general/ leader doesn't necessarily need to be directly in the front line, elbow deep in heretics. Another good example is an IG commander, they never needs to leave the command table if they have done their job properly, unless something really bad has happened. More so for a High Lord of Terra no less.

That doesn't sell models though

[Kastor Krieg]

Also just to make a reference all those complaining:

Where hou complaining when Codex Black Templars came out and Grimaldus Cenobytes has 3 immensely holiest of Imperium (well Armageddon artifacts)?

These artifacts already had a story coming with them, an excellent one, further developed in Helsreach.

 

That's exactly the opposite of what we're talking about here.

[Noserenda]

 

Also just to make a reference all those complaining:

Where hou complaining when Codex Black Templars came out and Grimaldus Cenobytes has 3 immensely holiest of Imperium (well Armageddon artifacts)?

These artifacts already had a story coming with them, an excellent one, further developed in Helsreach.

 

That's exactly the opposite of what we're talking about here.

 

So you admit them just doing one novel covering her might well give that sufficient context? Something that might in fact be coming in the near future? :P ;) 

[Azekai]

 

Yeah a lot of people missing the point that a good general/ leader doesn't necessarily need to be directly in the front line, elbow deep in heretics. Another good example is an IG commander, they never needs to leave the command table if they have done their job properly, unless something really bad has happened. More so for a High Lord of Terra no less.

That doesn't sell models though

Right, so GW may want to consider crafting a back story appropriate for a unit that has to appear on the tabletop. Like, say, that of a badass field commander or the Arch Abbess Militant. Making her a High Lord specifically makes zero sense.

[Ishagu]

Does anyone actually doubt that GW will feature this character in a story?

 

I half expect her to be a leading character in the next DoF novel.

[Gederas]

This is the natural evolution of GW lore writing, it was always a little like this even back in the day, but it veered sharply in this direction perhaps around 5E when people started complaining about Ward and Draigo and Calgar.

 

Used to be Forge World would inject a fresh breath of grimdark and give you gritty characters who just happened to be spotlighted because they were lucky enough to survive a few centuries longer and kill more enemies than the other guy, fighting over what is essentially nothing in a middle-of-nowhere sector in the vast galaxy, and if it weren't for the fact that they had a name and starred in a piece of writing, they may as well be nameless officer X and Brother Captain Y, but alas, we haven't gotten an Imperial Armour in a while.

That reminds me of my favourite counterpoint character fluff: 

 

Marshal Karis Venner, from IA12: The Fall of Orpheus. A named character by virtue of commanding his unit for an unprecedented 12 years, having been nearly killed 3 times. 

 

It takes astartes centuries of service to achieved special character status, while it takes the Guard merely half a modern standard military career.

To be fair, Marshal Karis Venner is also from the Death Korps of Krieg, who basically act like all the worst parts of WWI and WWII combat style (ie: meat grinders all the way! Throw more men at it! What do you mean we lost 800,000 troops? We secured twelve feet!) so surviving 12 years is actually astounding :lol:

 

I know it's Black Library, but in the Ciaphas Cain novels, there's a few recurring Guardsmen from the beginning of Cain's tenure with the Valhallan 589th (iirc that's the regiment's name) to the end of his tenure. Which isn't a small span of time either.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

This is the natural evolution of GW lore writing, it was always a little like this even back in the day, but it veered sharply in this direction perhaps around 5E when people started complaining about Ward and Draigo and Calgar.

 

Used to be Forge World would inject a fresh breath of grimdark and give you gritty characters who just happened to be spotlighted because they were lucky enough to survive a few centuries longer and kill more enemies than the other guy, fighting over what is essentially nothing in a middle-of-nowhere sector in the vast galaxy, and if it weren't for the fact that they had a name and starred in a piece of writing, they may as well be nameless officer X and Brother Captain Y, but alas, we haven't gotten an Imperial Armour in a while.

 

Yeah the GW lore has been like this for a long time even the second edition codex had their fair share of Mary Sue characters. I think the largest changes are that:

 

1) starting with Gathering Storm there has been a massive focus on adding Special characters. This trend continued with Psychic Awakening, and with Belakor showing up in a new campaign book isn't going anywhere. 

 

2) The nature of the campaign based releases leads to a comic book like feel because they're teaming up from day 1. Fractions didn't interact as much before even when they added ally rules in 6th, and in all honestly GW wants you to buy the codex for your fraction then start another. 

 

3) to your second point there hasn't been an Imperial Armour style release in a long time, so it feels like there is only one narrative style.

 

Does anyone actually doubt that GW will feature this character in a story?

 

I half expect her to be a leading character in the next DoF novel.

 

I definitely expect her to be a feature character in story at some point. That said while I own the first two DoF books I'm not sure if they working that close with the studio, or to be honest what their plan is. The first two books don't feel that connected to me, I like them but it doesn't feel like a series yet.

[Stofficus]

Alright, so we've had a lot of discussion on what is happening presently, and I don't think there's any serious dissention from the point that GW is focusing more on character-driven rather than setting-driven writing, and Jorin I think is right on the timing - the drive for large numbers of special characters really did come with the "triumvirate" boxes at the end of 7th edition. 

 

So, how about instead we discuss what could have been done with this ongoing wave of character releases that is GW is driving, because here's the thing, character driven isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't like the current superhero style, to say the least, but you don't have to look far to find a more nuanced and interesting approach to characters: Forgeworld's 30k system. 

 

While it hasn't really gone anywhere since Alan's unfortunate passing, they were certainly on to something during its heydey. 

 

So, 30k, by its nature is a much more focused proposition than 40k; it's creating a system about narrative and campaign mechanics, and shares a lot thematically with, say, WW2 historicals, as it charts a very set timeframe where very specific things happen, vice the sandbox of 40k. 

 

Forgeworld decided, however, from book one that as this story exists through character-driven novels, and to reflect that through representing not just novels characters, but adding their own since not every faction had a diverse roster to draw from - especially at the time they first launched their system. 

Thus, with every book new previously unheard of characters were introduced to represent specific archtypes FW felt would be worthwhile to include; the band of loyalists from the traitor legions in book 1, the blackshields, and most of the cast of the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and so on who had, and honestly still do, lack much novel characterization. 

 

However, there's a very important difference between the characters FW created versus GW's current efforts; none of them were "superheroes" 

 

What FW added were noteworthy line officers, accomplished champions or specialists in their field - they weren't High Lords of Terra, the chosen hand of the Emperor or some divinely blessed being who can rewrite reality. FW followed the mold of early 40k where special characters were just that, special, but not the people upon home the whole universe turned. 

 

That thinking also extended mechanically - while special characters would sometimes unlock some different way of playing, for the most part they were just enhanced versions of existing unit types. This make taking special characters less ubiquitous - it was rare they accomplished a role that couldn't be fulfilled by something else, and encouraged much more diversity. This may be one of the reasons why some of us find the current character-driven model so uncomfortable - it's not just having these new characters developed inelegantly, with each one an attempt to one-up the last, but they are often mechanically essential to getting high performance out of your army. Generic characters, for the most part, don't offer anywhere near the same utility or impact as the latest additions to the Imperium/Chaos/Gork'n'Mork's Avengers. [sidenote, I would pay good money to watch an Ork Avengers movie]

 

I can't remember the last AdMech army I fought which wasn't Mars with Cawl, and I've killed more Guillimans than I care to consider, but in 30k? I ran over Erebus with a Baneblade once, which was delightful, but the game really didn't revolve around these universe shaking figures - and that's in a system which literally has 18 Primarchs represented. 

[Kastor Krieg]

 

 

Also just to make a reference all those complaining:

Where hou complaining when Codex Black Templars came out and Grimaldus Cenobytes has 3 immensely holiest of Imperium (well Armageddon artifacts)?

These artifacts already had a story coming with them, an excellent one, further developed in Helsreach.

 

That's exactly the opposite of what we're talking about here.

 

So you admit them just doing one novel covering her might well give that sufficient context? Something that might in fact be coming in the near future?

No, you're missing the point. The Grimaldus stuff was established in the very same paragraphs. The whole story of a siege, being buried under a chapel's rubble and then going from there, salvaging the relics. If THAT was in this blurb, not a flat out statement of qualities, then that would be way better world building.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

In all fairness Reclusiarch Krieg we haven't seen the campaign book or the new sisters codex. This thread is judging the models fluff based purely on the little fluff mentioned in its preview. Personally I'm not expecting to like it but I think Noserenda has a point that it may end up being good.

[BitsHammer]

*snip*

I'm jumping into this late but it's a BIG setting. The Imperium alone has a million worlds with quintillions of souls living on them and has FAR more history than we do. Just because we don't know of someone or something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

 

That said, GW should have started with some lore on that lance instead of just name dropping it, but it's not the first time we've been handed only the name and none of the details.

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

 

 

Also just to make a reference all those complaining:

Where hou complaining when Codex Black Templars came out and Grimaldus Cenobytes has 3 immensely holiest of Imperium (well Armageddon artifacts)?

These artifacts already had a story coming with them, an excellent one, further developed in Helsreach.

 

That's exactly the opposite of what we're talking about here.

So you admit them just doing one novel covering her might well give that sufficient context? Something that might in fact be coming in the near future? :P ;)

A book not released for almost a decade after the codex. And a short story contained within his short biography snippet. That is likely also true for this model once she is released.