Artificial "depth" in lore affecting immersion?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I have that White Dwarf:

 

"Early in Helbrecht's career it was clear he was destined for greatness, "it was his qualities of bloody-mindedness and stubborn determination that raised him above the rest of the warriors," says Graham [McNeil]

Successor to the Great High Marshal Kordhel, Helbrecht has mounted crusade after crusade, each with phenomenal success, further cementing his reputation. In battle he wields the sword of the High Marshals, forged from the shattered blade of Royal Dorn. [snip some out of date rules chat here] Helbrecht is the über Black Templar, that to which all others aspire. "He absolutely epitomises what it is to be a Black Templar," says Graham.

...

It was upon attaining the rank Reclusiarch that chaplain Grimaldus first accompanied High Marshal Helbrecht to Armageddon. A powerful warrior, a retinue of Cenobyte Servitors follow him into battle, bearing the relics of an ancient temple salvaged at Grimaldus' order after it collapsed upon him during a furious battle. Carried off by his attendants, these artifacts count as a holy relic in battle."

 

As far as I recall, Helbrecht had had small bits of fluff before that, in White Dwarf and Codex: Armageddon (where he had an augmetic eye, which had gone by 4th,) but Grimaldus was a completely new creation with no pre-existing fluff.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Kastor Krieg]

It was upon attaining the rank Reclusiarch that chaplain Grimaldus first accompanied High Marshal Helbrecht to Armageddon. A powerful warrior, a retinue of Cenobyte Servitors follow him into battle, bearing the relics of an ancient temple salvaged at Grimaldus' order after it collapsed upon him during a furious battle. Carried off by his attendants, these artifacts count as a holy relic in battle."

 

And this is world building.

 

Compare this to something like "And then chaplain Grimaldus was appointed the Reclusiarch of the Black Templars and was handed three servitors carrying the holiest relics of the Chapter".

 

Yawn.

 

That snippet about surviving a collapsed temple during battle? BADASS STORYTELLING.

[Noserenda]

The problem is Krieg, you are missing that if Grimaldus was released today, with absolutely no changes to his fluff, his preview would have been similar to this new SoB. IE "This is Chaplain Grimaldus who is a badass and those servitors are carrying the relics of his greatest battle which gives a buff" you dont get the full story because the presenters dont have the full story most of the time, just the marketing blurb, while the codex is going to be at least a page probably, plus quotes, artworks etc etc even before they feature in a BL novel, or campaign book or what have you.

I mean at this point it does feel like you are being deliberately obtuse.


Special characters have come and gone in favour over the years, in 2nd ed codexes came with a dozen of them even if only a couple got models, so their real hey day was back then. Then they were broadly tolerated for a bit, this weird attitude that you should never play them, then loads got chucked in the bin for not having current models. They are making a bit of a comeback now because they are a good idea, both for gamers and GW (I mean look at the wishlisting every time a Black library tie in model gets released!)  but quite a few of the newer factions need them adding still, including SoB ;) Though i do wish they werent all Lord level in their case...

AS for 30k, as a haven for toxic grognard-ness a lot of folks there are still a bit backwards when it comes to special characters. When there were no restrictions on special characters (And lots of options) at Tempus fugitive events there were loads of them on tables but a significant number of more recent events limit or ban them entirely, which always feels at odds for a "narrative focused" system if im honest, why is Captain Generic inherently more "narrative" than a character with a bunch of stories and themes pre established?   *ahem* side rant :D 

Well, except the DOOM OF MALANTAI that definitely deserved to get in the bin :D 

[Redcomet]

So we are complaining about something new because it hasn’t been mentioned or alluded to in some 30 year old book?

 

Right.

 

Makes it kinda hard to do new stuff then. But I guess that is the problem for many. New.

 

And people wonder why the old Warhammer fantasy became a dying product line.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Comparing the initial notes from a White Dwarf interview on a new codex release, with the chief writer, to the three line War Com blurb isn't really a fair comparison. There probably isn't a comparable resource for 2005, so we can't really say that it would definitely have been done better back in the good old days. Because it probably would have been very similar.

[Lexington]

We've a bit more on the subject at hand, though I imagine it'll just keep splitting opinions down the same lines.

 

There's a lot to say on the subject, most of it already said further upthread, so I'll just leave this here: This sort of stuff makes you really feel the absence of the creators who made 40K great, way back when. It's hard to imagine them ever pulling anything like this, because they weren't 40K fans. The High Lords were just High Lords, a thing they made up as a bit of flavor for their pastiche sci-fi dystopia. The crop who crank out the setting now, though? They're die-hard fans, and that coin holds a lot of value in their realm.

[BitsHammer]

Most of the studio names have been involved with the game for most of it's life. I would argue it's a bit misleading to say it's solely in the hand of "fans" because of that.

 

That said, lore has always been divisive. You can't satisfy 100% of the player base ever. 

[Vassakov]

Why do people think the serious lore and world building is being done on the Warhammer Community site...? It's very obviously written from an out-of-universe setting and is a way for GW to speak directly to the fans.

[Azekai]

Thinking about the spear, and the consternation it seems to be causing, would it have somehow helped if it was referenced as a spear gleaned from some Horus Heresy battle? Or the massacre at Sanctuary 101? Or is that a retcon too? If the standard of adding anything with a storied history is now a retcon, basically anything and everything added to 40k would be a retcon. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Well, except the DOOM OF MALANTAI that definitely deserved to get in the bin

The Doom did nothing wrong. I will start a separate thread and die on this hill, if necessary. :P

[BitsHammer]

Why do people think the serious lore and world building is being done on the Warhammer Community site...? It's very obviously written from an out-of-universe setting and is a way for GW to speak directly to the fans.

They do in universe short storieson WHC, but those have been almost exclusively AoS related.

[BitsHammer]

Thinking about the spear, and the consternation it seems to be causing, would it have somehow helped if it was referenced as a spear gleaned from some Horus Heresy battle? Or the massacre at Sanctuary 101? Or is that a retcon too? If the standard of adding anything with a storied history is now a retcon, basically anything and everything added to 40k would be a retcon. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

 

Well, except the DOOM OF MALANTAI that definitely deserved to get in the bin

The Doom did nothing wrong. I will start a separate thread and die on this hill, if necessary.

The Exorcists tanks came from the vaults under the palace, so I assume the spear did as well. Malcador was a bit of a horder.

[Lord Marshal]

My gripe with her fluff is that I feel if she was written a few editions ago, her running off to the frontlines and ignoring her position would probably be pitched as a bad thing - the Ecclesiarchy are thrilled she's gone because it creates a vacuum they can "Don't worry, Steveius will fill in for her!" and it would create a situation where either they're getting their way without having to consult their quasi-puppet - who doesn't especially care because she'd rather purge heretics anyway - or it creates an additional bottle neck in the great Imperial bureaucracy where she's effectively useless as a High Lord because any decision, request, or important bit of information takes years to reach her.

 

Instead it just feels like the continued Avengers'ing of the Imperium. She's too BADASS to do paper work, that's for NERDS! She's not on a council, she's gonna march into the invasion and PUNCH the heretic in the face, not deploy a crusade with a pen! This HOT MOMMA is gonna GET. STUFF. DONE. Guess who she's backing up? None other than the PRIMARCH GUILLIMAN himself!!! That's right Chaos, watch out, because this ain't no elderly pencil pusher you gotta take down now! Wanna take her out? She's coming STRAIGHT TO YOU. And then it'll turn out she got more done in a decade on the frontlines than her predecessors did in centuries or something. If it turns out this does happen, she'll probably march in, burn them all and 180, dab, then moonwalk back to the frontlines. 

 

Okay that's all wrong, a few editions ago she'd be a background character, beyond her years of frontline combat and instead Vahl would just be, "one of the highest ranking Sisters in the Imperium."

 

Maybe I'm being too cynical and this will get brought up in Black Library content or I'm giving the old fluff too much credit. I know people are going to say "Just wait for the Codex lore!" but something tells me I won't be pleasantly surprised. This wouldn't bother me nearly as much if she wasn't a High Lord of Terra, for the record and I now fully expect a Lord Commander Militant Creed with a 2+ BS (rerolling) duel-wielding plasma pistols at some point in the future.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Lord Marshal

[BitsHammer]

Sisters have always had a martyrdom fetish as part of their identity in the fluff. Their High Lord being out on the front lines living, and likely dying, for the Emperor would really just be acting as a living example of their ethos.

 

And it's less that she doesn't want to do paperwork, it's more that she isn't acting as the puppet the other High Lords expected her to be. It's not like the actual High Lords attend the meetings personally everytime. I mean if they did Guilliman would be skipping out on his job as the person in charge of the High Lords, and others like the Mechanicus High Lord (who is massive) can't be bothered to be there all the time.

 

As for her lore, the WHC write ups are more just shallow summaries written to get your interest, not spill all the details on the characters. Like we don't know what order she served with before or what her position was prior to being a High Lord, so I wouldn't read too far into the WHC marketting articles.

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

 

Sisters are a far bigger organisation than just the Battle Sisters- hell, most of them actually aren't.

Any source for that? I've never heard anything definitive, but given that the Adepta Sororitas descend from a decidingly militaristic order it makes sense the sisters are overwhelmingly militarized.

 

This track might be better suited as a separate thread

 

=][=

[Brother Tyler]

I split all of the side discussion about the size of the Adepta Sororitas from this topic, creating a new topic in the Adepta Sororitas forum.

 

It's natural that some discussion here is going to start potential tangents. When you see such a tangent, the best course of action is to start a discussion in that (sub-)faction's forum and link back to comments in this discussion as the catalyst. You can similarly post a reply here quoting the comment and indicating that a topic for more in-depth discussion of the issue has been created in X forum (ideally with a link).

[MegaVolt87]

Its quite apparent GW no longer wishes to wait several years to "bake in" a named character into 40k, then release an associated model with rules. Also 40k has always been "herohammer" and army centerpiece oriented, hence the primaris Lt's, this new high lord and triumph all reflect this. Its just kicking into high gear now, they are taking a narrative shortcut by adding in new persona to expand the lore on a personal level over the overarching macro/ meta level. Like how PP do warmahordes lore/ universe. Also the character based BL books are immensely popular. 

[Scribe]

Its quite apparent GW no longer wishes to wait several years to "bake in" a named character into 40k, then release an associated model with rules. Also 40k has always been "herohammer" and army centerpiece oriented, hence the primaris Lt's, this new high lord and triumph all reflect this. Its just kicking into high gear now, they are taking a narrative shortcut by adding in new persona to expand the lore on a personal level over the overarching macro/ meta level. Like how PP do warmahordes lore/ universe. Also the character based BL books are immensely popular. 

 

No, it hasnt 'always' been, clearly, otherwise you wouldnt have people (correctly) pointing out that the story or metaplot focus has shifted so dramatically towards those character models you are talking about.

 

It USED to be, you had to get permission to even run a special character, and they simply were not used by most people.

 

Lord Marshal, Lex, and especially Stofficus have covered things off nicely, but no, it wasnt always this way, and it certainly wasnt always this bad.

[Schlitzaf]

It USED to be, you had to get permission to even “play”.

Everytime I hear someone say this, that what I read frankly. Also why do special characters by and large suck donkey? And this is the same universe wherein the single biggest event that defined its story is named after someone.

 

And what so bad about special characters? And HeroHammer? You mean where a single dudebro with a vortex grenade in an a past edition literally murder half the board? I still remember in 4th grade when I played 40k first time. I took out High Marshall Helbrecht and placed him on the table.

 

The very first thing that happened? He got crumped by a Nob with a Power Klaw. And honestly it felt awful. You might be about to say “Haha that is 40k!”.

 

And you know what else is 40k? Getting to play with the damn models I bought. It felt so unbelievably terrible to see my Chapter Master get taken out by some punk Ork. Also Special Characters are only special because they have named assigned by some guy who made a model then fluff written retroactively to justify why they made a model.

 

An AwesomeDudebro with Name is no different than the 80th Smash (Character) or some other character. And for all 40k GrimDark its also “hopeful” like even back in 3rd-4th. Its never humanity is doomed (okay actually it was) but its is doomed but we will not go silently.

[BitsHammer]

 

Its quite apparent GW no longer wishes to wait several years to "bake in" a named character into 40k, then release an associated model with rules. Also 40k has always been "herohammer" and army centerpiece oriented, hence the primaris Lt's, this new high lord and triumph all reflect this. Its just kicking into high gear now, they are taking a narrative shortcut by adding in new persona to expand the lore on a personal level over the overarching macro/ meta level. Like how PP do warmahordes lore/ universe. Also the character based BL books are immensely popular. 

 

No, it hasnt 'always' been, clearly, otherwise you wouldnt have people (correctly) pointing out that the story or metaplot focus has shifted so dramatically towards those character models you are talking about.

 

It USED to be, you had to get permission to even run a special character, and they simply were not used by most people.

 

Lord Marshal, Lex, and especially Stofficus have covered things off nicely, but no, it wasnt always this way, and it certainly wasnt always this bad.

 

Even with permission being a standard convention (ah, the halcyon days of 3rd edition) the rules very much made named characters monsters on the table. Abbadon was such a beat stick back then I still can't think of him as "harmless" no matter how many memes people make about the Black Crusade.

 

GW has always had a penchant for hero hammer.

[BitsHammer]

 

It USED to be, you had to get permission to even “play”.

Everytime I hear someone say this, that what I read frankly. Also why do special characters by and large suck donkey? And this is the same universe wherein the single biggest event that defined its story is named after someone.

 

And what so bad about special characters? And HeroHammer? You mean where a single dudebro with a vortex grenade in an a past edition literally murder half the board? I still remember in 4th grade when I played 40k first time. I took out High Marshall Helbrecht and placed him on the table.

 

The very first thing that happened? He got crumped by a Nob with a Power Klaw. And honestly it felt awful. You might be about to say “Haha that is 40k!”.

 

And you know what else is 40k? Getting to play with the damn models I bought. It felt so unbelievably terrible to see my Chapter Master get taken out by some punk Ork. Also Special Characters are only special because they have named assigned by some guy who made a model then fluff written retroactively to justify why they made a model.

 

An AwesomeDudebro with Name is no different than the 80th Smash (Character) or some other character. And for all 40k GrimDark its also “hopeful” like even back in 3rd-4th. Its never humanity is doomed (okay actually it was) but its is doomed but we will not go silently.

 

In all fairness Tycho has a name because he was someone's custom Blood Angels captain who got warp-vomited on by a Weirdboy and they liked it so much they made him an official part of the canon.

[MegaVolt87]

I guess I articulated myself poorly, my intent was narrating the general shift in GW lore building, more than trying to hold a fixed position on the matter. For better or worse, the shift is more focused on the person's involved vs a meta arc. It's going to come down to implementation in the end.

[chapter master 454]

Personally going to reiterate my personal distaste is the need for Custodian acknowledgement, the Spear could of be something the Sisters already had or possibly even mention it as the badge of office for her role (I know, retcon the suits in. May as well at this point) but comment that her predecessor didn't use them because she was more background affairs than frontline combat, really sell us on her being a dramatic shift. Even have her appointment by Gulliman be an admin thing for the Primarch, not a big deal he just needs a high lord in that position he thinks is trustworthy but to her it is a position of grand honour to be appointed by the Primarch, not elected by peers and thus is fervent to prove her worthiness of the role especially to a son of her holy emperor.

 

Maybe that may be the case in some places but again, far too much inter-factional acknowledgements that are out of place. Custodians don't like religious zealots and barely trust Gulliman (let alone space marines) as far as they could throw him down the imperial palace stairs. They can work with other factions but their trust of others is minimal, it is why I loved the lore in War of the Spider (I believe) where they outright murder the entire batch of primaris marines due for a chapter that went chaos despite them having not even met or known this chapter before. Really shows how much trust they give Gulliman and space marines in general, which feels in character for them. Despite being pinnacle super humans, even in such high standards they cannot trust another (and to be honest, I don't think Gulliman trusts the Custodes much ether).

 

I have issues with the grand amount of options they have, the immense worlds they could work with and they oft just take the lazy and easy path of just slap them in, give a few accolades that sound good and let them loose. Often this means the character needs to have a few editions to actually develop lore of their own that people can actually enjoy instead of giving at the very least some good ground to start from. All for characters needing to earn their place but no need for them to hyped manned into a position where they are ice-skating up hill and only really have "are their rules good" to be a deciding factor if people like them. Ultimately, that leads into "yea, lore is garbage but at least the model is decent and rules are great" or "yea, Garbage lore for Garbage character with Garbage model".

 

It isn't I don't want new characters, I want them to be written with respect to the universe they are in and respect to who they are without needing to make them play second fiddle to another faction overtly. She comes in: "She is a high lord, a position of power that few of the Imperium even know exists let alone would ever get within a thousand planets of even witnessing. However she is still a punk compared to custodians who gave her a neat spear to be nice to her and Gulliman was the one to appoint her because well...he needed a replacement high lord and she was on sale at the Shooting, Slicing Sisters on Terra"

I mean, if you are going to HYPE a model and character...you tend to keep who they are second to quiet for...you know...the lore you tell later on. Not on her announcement. You can have the spear still be of custodian origin, tell us in the codex and just call it a divine holy relic of Terra, not hard to believe a high lord would have it. Don't mention her appointment by Gulliman, just mention her predecessor went missing and she's the girl filling the mech-suit now. Keep on the positives and don't put her down by putting her next to other big boys that each time get to have higher standing. Leave that stuff for the codex, not her grand reveal and debut.

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

 

It USED to be, you had to get permission to even “play”.

Everytime I hear someone say this, that what I read frankly. Also why do special characters by and large suck donkey? And this is the same universe wherein the single biggest event that defined its story is named after someone.

 

And what so bad about special characters? And HeroHammer? You mean where a single dudebro with a vortex grenade in an a past edition literally murder half the board? I still remember in 4th grade when I played 40k first time. I took out High Marshall Helbrecht and placed him on the table.

 

The very first thing that happened? He got crumped by a Nob with a Power Klaw. And honestly it felt awful. You might be about to say “Haha that is 40k!”.

 

And you know what else is 40k? Getting to play with the damn models I bought. It felt so unbelievably terrible to see my Chapter Master get taken out by some punk Ork. Also Special Characters are only special because they have named assigned by some guy who made a model then fluff written retroactively to justify why they made a model.

 

An AwesomeDudebro with Name is no different than the 80th Smash (Character) or some other character. And for all 40k GrimDark its also “hopeful” like even back in 3rd-4th. Its never humanity is doomed (okay actually it was) but its is doomed but we will not go silently.

In all fairness Tycho has a name because he was someone's custom Blood Angels captain who got warp-vomited on by a Weirdboy and they liked it so much they made him an official part of the canon.

Its almost as if “named/special” characters aren’t special. Anymore than anyone Joe McSmasher Joe Captain.

 

And Volt, but it isn’t really any different. The main is these characters aren’t they are special. But they grant us a sense of scale. We can argue avengers-drift all we want. But in earlier editions think for a moment. Who rememebers or talk about of Fall of Gryphon VII or Ophelia IV?

 

The latter is a best given an aside referencr in convo and former is used a mallet to say why NewCrons are bad.

But the stories? That “define” or make 40k?

 

The Battle of Macragge, and Spartan’ing of Ultra 1st Company

 

Ghaz launching the third war of Armageddon and opposed by Yarrick

 

Eisenhorn and Gaunt’s Ghost stories

 

HORUS Heresy before Heresy Series no one mentioned to Istavaan Massacres beside “Loyalists were murderized” the stories are about personal confrontation between Horus and Big E

 

Black Crusades, led by Abaddon. Abaddon story a rejection of Avengering ie Sons of Horus to Black Legion. But CSM often focuses on BigCharacter (Abaddon often) relationships or actions.

 

Like I could go on but I feel like I made my point. There isn’t anything new in the Avengering of 40k. What is new is that armies often have more than 3 special characters. So it feels more like an Avengering

[Scribe]

Those set pieces absolutely define the setting, but they didn't shrink it.

 

It's like how for years we were told it's a Setting, not a Story.

 

Well especially in the last several years we have drifted into a metaplot where the setting takes a back seat to the Adventure of Rob G and his High Lord Friends.

 

It's a shift in focus.

 

Is the Heresy named after Horus? Absolutely. Is the HH setting, diminished and focused on his personal March to Terra? Absolutely not.

 

I have a friend who was THE special character guy. Every fight, every skirmish, every patrol, had either Abaddon or The Swarmlord.

 

But when my group took to the HH? He was right there focused on an army and a setting that (at least how we played) didn't focus on individuals but on the wider context of the setting. Eventually we got some large collections and yes we had a huge battle with several Primarchs per side, but there was (is?) A different feel especially in comparison to the current 40K context of auras and buffs, all being driven by major or minor characters.

 

As to some of your other comments regarding losing a SC to a Nob Power Claw ... well yeah that is 40K. Everyone's models get killed, so what? LOL.

 

The setting shrinks when the game focuses on Special Characters. The setting is expanded when Characters exist within the lore.

 

There is a distinction there.

[Magos Takatus]

 

Its quite apparent GW no longer wishes to wait several years to "bake in" a named character into 40k, then release an associated model with rules. Also 40k has always been "herohammer" and army centerpiece oriented, hence the primaris Lt's, this new high lord and triumph all reflect this. Its just kicking into high gear now, they are taking a narrative shortcut by adding in new persona to expand the lore on a personal level over the overarching macro/ meta level. Like how PP do warmahordes lore/ universe. Also the character based BL books are immensely popular. 

 

No, it hasnt 'always' been, clearly, otherwise you wouldnt have people (correctly) pointing out that the story or metaplot focus has shifted so dramatically towards those character models you are talking about.

 

It USED to be, you had to get permission to even run a special character, and they simply were not used by most people.

 

Lord Marshal, Lex, and especially Stofficus have covered things off nicely, but no, it wasnt always this way, and it certainly wasnt always this bad.

 

You only had to ask permission to field characters around 3rd edition time. Before then in 2nd edition you were perfectly entitled to roll up with Abbadon the Despoiler and demolish stuff. That's why 3rd edition went through the brief phase of limiting special characters. I'm not sure about 4th edition but I believe the limitations were relaxed by then. 2nd edition was called Herohammer for a reason, though. A canny combination of wargear cards on the right unit could cause carnage. I think loading up psychic Inquisitors in Terminator armour were one of the many straws that broke the camel's back then.