Artificial "depth" in lore affecting immersion?

[Schlitzaf]

And? So what? I stopped taking Helbrecht.

 

I made generic slicey mc slicerson Marshalls instead. The problem isn’t he died. He died like some other bozo. I was in Middle School when this happened, this super awesome character I read about in my codex died because a mook sucker punched him. How do you think I felt?

 

And why should Special Characters be outright garbage compared to Generic? But how are those stories any different told back then any different?

 

They really aren’t we just have more characters like, if Kryptman story if retold be called an avengering

[Scribe]

It seems you were not emotionally prepared for a basic tenet of the setting when your model died.

 

'You will not be missed.' You didn't grasp that death and loss is central to the setting, and even 'special characters' can fall.

 

Sorry you were not prepared for that.

 

I mean nobody is talking about the balance point between SCs vs basic HQs, that's not at all the concern here.

 

The issue as I understand it is the shift from Setting, to Story.

 

We used to tell or experience our own stories, within the setting. It was our converted HQs, it was our elite units, it was our army, crafted with upgrades we chose, instead of the current model of SCs, and preset configuration.

 

Our armies were ours, and they lived inside the setting.

 

Now? It SEEMS people are just happy to pick up that new High Lord and drop them down on the table to play out GWs story.

 

Nobodies talking about balance here, everyone's models get jacked up and die...

[Azekai]

And? So what? I stopped taking Helbrecht.

 

...

 

The problem isn’t he died. He died like some other bozo. I was in Middle School when this happened, this super awesome character I read about in my codex died because a mook sucker punched him. How do you think I felt?

 

 

I don't understand this. Plot armor exists in books and movies but your characters (even the 'important' ones!) are not assured survival or a good death within the context of tabletop 40k. You are playing a game. Sometimes you roll bad or your opponent rolls good and your little soldiers die like punks. That is why you roll dice, because however unlikely, the gods and monsters can fail and die and the humble guardsmen and grots can do great things. 

 

One of my first wargaming experiences included my balrog rolling snake eyes for a courage test and getting chased from the battlefield by Theoden and a handful of Rohirrim. My buddy and I laughed about it. It wasn't traumatic, and I didn't sit there and complain about how Durin's Bane wouldn't quail before a few ponies. It was silly, but that's all part of the experience. It's a feature, not a bug, and I do not think it cheapens the background lore in any way.

 

The dice, to some extent, write the narrative, not the other way around. If you want to live in a place where Helbrecht gets to be awesome and never die, then a better avenue would be writing about him.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Azekai

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

In all fairness Schlitzaf did mention being in middle school at this point, things were a lot more life or death at that point of my life at least. I see the post as an agrument that building up these characters too much, can make a negative experience for a new player.

 

The more I look at older codex to compare the older fluff to the more contemporary stuff the more I see that its changed less than I thought. I really think it's more an issue of how much it exists now. I think Scribe's agrument that people seem more content to play special characters and with preset configs is driven by lore (special characters aren't that common on top tables, and same for most primaris units.) So I really can't fault GW for this approach.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Scribe]

The preset configuration issue is simply the (imo) cynical 'you will play with the models as we provide them' approach. It's not a balance concern, it's certainly not a lore concern.

 

It's, this is the kit, you are stuck with it.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I find it deflating.

[Schlitzaf]

In all fairness Schlitzaf did mention being in middle school at this point, things were a lot more life or death at that point of my life at least. I see the post as an agrument that building up these characters too much, can make a negative experience for a new player.

 

The more I look at older codex to compare the older fluff to the more contemporary stuff the more I see that its changed less than I thought. I really think it's more an issue of how much it exists now. I think Scribe's agrument that people seem more content to play special characters and with preset configs is driven by lore (special characters aren't that common on top tables, and same for most primaris units.) So I really can't fault GW for this approach.

Exactly Helm that is my point. That was literally my first game of 40k played ever and it was an Apoc game where I had with my chapter Bestest Dude and got munched by a sargeant with a power klaw. I got over it ultimately but that negative play experience literally means any special character I see. I don’t give a donkey, about his SuperCoolLore, because if he dies like a any other dudebro on the table. Why should I?

 

And what may have pushed me to competitive 40k.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Schlitzaf

[Rik Lightstar]

It's a setting where some of the core themes for the factions are Tradition, Superstition, Religion and Aversion to Change.

 

It is entirely in keeping that named characters have the trappings of their office for all of those reasons.

 

COULD Marneus Calgar use a Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Jump Pack? Sure he's capable of it and would have been trained in all of those things, and maybe at some point in his past as Captain of a Battle Company he did.

 

But the Special Character "Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines" represents him once he's reached that rank and the lore is that the Chapter Master uses the Gauntlets of Ultramar.

 

Logan Grimnar took the Axe Morkai from a Chaos Lord at Armageddon after his Frost Blade was destroyed and he won the fight unarmed. It's a badge of honour, a trophy and a Talisman, it is part of his Saga and he treats it as such.

 

Relics that are passed from one hero to another are a massive part of the setting.

 

Rik

[ThePenitentOne]

I will also so that named character dominance is less prevalent in Crusade, since named characters are frozen in time and cannot grow, which is half the fun of Crusade.

 

Similarly, if you want to take the story back from GW's studio, you need to play the version of game that is specifically designed to include tools for you to tell your own story..., And that ain't matched play, my Frater.

 

I know I come across as a white knight, and the ambassador for Crusade, but I do literally believe that almost every problem people have with 9th ed 40k boils down to the fact that they keep playing matched.

[Scribe]

I will also so that named character dominance is less prevalent in Crusade, since named characters are frozen in time and cannot grow, which is half the fun of Crusade.

 

Similarly, if you want to take the story back from GW's studio, you need to play the version of game that is specifically designed to include tools for you to tell your own story..., And that ain't matched play, my Frater.

 

I know I come across as a white knight, and the ambassador for Crusade, but I do literally believe that almost every problem people have with 9th ed 40k boils down to the fact that they keep playing matched.

 

While you are probably right, that is still GW's fault. If the 'best way' or meta, for matched competitive play is 'take these broken SC's, and these braindead lists' then GW is failing to balance for anything but cynical profit driven concerns.

 

I can completely see where you are coming from, but Crusade isnt what I'm after. 5th Edition is.

[Schlitzaf]

Except they aren’t broken and most are utter garbage.

[BitsHammer]

I'd also argue that most of the top table players aren't exactly running braindead lists since they tend to need to find unusual combos to solve those edge cases in order to win more games.

[Scribe]

Except they aren’t broken and most are utter garbage.

 

You'll note I said 'if' and as I've alllllllso noted several times, I'm not even talking about balance. :)

[Schlitzaf]

Your right, that what you said but not what you meant. And what problem with taking Named SuperHero CoolBro vs your TotallyNotNamedGeneric McCoolBro

[Scribe]

Your right, that what you said but not what you meant. And what problem with taking Named SuperHero CoolBro vs your TotallyNotNamedGeneric McCoolBro

 

?

 

Sure bud. Carry on.

[chapter master 454]

I feel we are straying from the point...not sure but feels like we have drifted somewhere. Might be me.

 

I do feel there may be some hold-overs from prior questionable fluff decisions that may be marring out viewpoint on new guys. Not to mention some egregious plot armour occurring for one reason or another not due to lore but models. I mean, Calgar vs. Old Abby was quite the spectacular failure of a narrative they ever hyped and had to resource to leaning on their "primaris are awesome" hype machine to keep calgar around (along with convenient "Argh, Next time gadget" plot device). Like they had to give Calgar not one but two Deus Ex Machinas to survive, first was the timing of the attack by the eldar and abby deciding not to spend a quick second to blow calgar's non-helmeted face clean off with his talon and the second was the "look at how awesome this resus gland thing is" when the fights description has BOTH his hearts being cut open. All of that preceded by a blurb where Calgar is playing Dead by Daylight round a pallet effectively. Stupid eldar and their brand new parts :D

 

One bit of bad lore can sour a taste enough, we as a race tend to focus on the bad far more than the good (stupid evolution, let me enjoy perfectly good things!) however it must be said that GW tends to write inconsistently. Some pieces are great, some pieces are trash, some are decent and some are not good. With such a balance, a lack of faith in their story telling can be expected especially when it can be sparse or even sometimes feel disconnected from the lore as WE the fans of the universe see it which can be a massive divide.

 

Just saying, I would wager a lot of us would LOVE to see something like what happened in the parody series "if the Emperor had a Text-To-Speech device" for Magnus. Redemption for a character who does truly deserve it by all merits, he who tried to do the right thing and was scorned for it and sometimes you may wonder if the Emperor in his big old chair...does he regret what he did and ordered against Magnus? Or is he truly that vile a human being to fully dismiss him as a failure like 2 and 11. One of the more interesting narratives within 40k to be sure. However GW likely has zero plans for such things and Magnus will remain a fairly one directional character bent on destroying the space wolves (who deserve it and Magnus did nothing wrong, Fight me!).

[slitth]

It would have been funny if the Lance of Illumination was the Pale Spear or part of it.

Hidden, renamed and its origin forgotten.

But sadly that opportunity is wasted. 

[Kastor Krieg]

It would have been funny if the Lance of Illumination was the Pale Spear or part of it.

Hidden, renamed and its origin forgotten.

But sadly that opportunity is wasted. 

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Spear_of_Telesto

 

That old thing was also found in an ork loot pile, but there's no news about its later fate. Could it have been handed over to Custodes as a relic preserved next to the Eternity Gate?

[chapter master 454]

 

It would have been funny if the Lance of Illumination was the Pale Spear or part of it.

Hidden, renamed and its origin forgotten.

But sadly that opportunity is wasted. 

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Spear_of_Telesto

 

That old thing was also found in an ork loot pile, but there's no news about its later fate. Could it have been handed over to Custodes as a relic preserved next to the Eternity Gate?

 

 

Nope, it was found by Cato Sicarius returning from the warp , having travelled to the future and crossed the Rubicon. Now wielding the Emperor's personal Plasma Pistol and armour of Gulliman because he was flung to the distance future where the chaos gods were law, he was  a foolish space marine on a black and white bike who sought a way back to the past to undo the future that was chaos.

 

Sorry, wanted to just throw a little levity in here :D