Codex Incoming!

[march10k]

As a 15 year veteran of the Sororitas, I've been slow, very slow, to give the recent slew of new models any real thought.  But since they're being followed by a new codex, I'm more or less forced to give them a second look, since that codex is written in the context that those units are a "thing" and Nottingham wants very desperately to sell that new plastic to recalcitrant anachronists such as myself.  

 

I'm thinking the just-announced Abbess Sanctorum will be similar to the Silent King in a way.  She'll be cheaper and more fragile, sure.  But I'm guessing that fielding her will more or less dictate your army list and play style in the same way that the Silent King does.  If so, I'm not interested, there will be plenty of room to build a competitive list without those limitations.

 

The auto-tapestry seems very interesting.  It probably isn't going to be viable unless you're fielding a horde of infantry, but that is sort of my play style when it comes to SoB.  The question is going to be whether it's suited for just locking down a table quarter with a couple squads, or whether you have to blob up 2000 points around it to make it worthwhile.  Toughness 3 suggests the former in terms of points cost, in which case I'm all over this unit.  I am very curious to learn the effects of the accompanying remembrancer.  Maybe more impactful in a crusade setting?

 

I still feel like the idea of the dogmata is bad.   I know there are plenty of self-interested, empire building careerist charlatans in the ecclesiarchy, but the "need" for dogmata suggests that those frauds are the rule, note the exception, and that's offensive to me.  Still, I think that the unit is going to be critical in terms of providing toned down and distributed auto-tapestry buffs, and Dolan can only be in one place at a time.  Dogmata may even be good enough that you don't actually NEED the auto-tapestry.

 

Palatines...yeah, sure, lieutenants with boob armor.  I don't field one in my Dark Angels list, and probably won't see the value to my Sisters, either.  *Maybe* if they're HQ, they're the cheapest HQ, and I can't get two HQ choices that are actually worthwhile.  But I suspect that I'll be running Celestine and a Canoness (aka Mother Francess).

 

Sacresants still disturb me.  Despite being T3, I have to assume they have two wounds, and with those shields, they probably cost too much to be worthwhile, sort of like 8th edition Lychguard.  And they also alter the long-standing tradition that sisters melee units have enormous offensive potential, but just aren't survivable.  They're supposed to die in atonement for their sins, sooner rather than later, whether or not they take any of th'emprah's enemies with them.  Melee troops that are supposed to dish out a beating and still be on the table at the end of the game just don't compute.  But who knows?  Maybe in terms of gameplay, they'll be the bee's knees.  I do like the look of the ones with maces (but not the halberdiers), except for the crap built up on top of their backpacks, but that's what a hobby knife is for...

 

Paragons are hideous.  There's no way around that.  The way they did the arms works for me, but the legs?  Doesn't work.  They're probably going to be good on the tabletop, though, if they aren't overcosted.  By "good," I mean fast enough to be prime multimelta platforms.  Coming in squadrons of three or more, that's enough melta fire concentrated in one unit to be dangerous, and they're probably going to have decent speed to get those 6+ shots into range before they themselves die.  Flamer and bolter versions are probably utterly useless, though, and the melee weapons at best discourage charges, I can't imagine they're going to be the reason to field this unit.  I'd say that flamers and swords would be decent against hordes, but this is an army that doesn't need help in that department.

 

Castigators seem like leman russes in rhino hulls.  Except that the big gun is probably less capable than the real McCoy? Less durable and less smit-ey?  It's a capability we didn't have before, but I'm not sure it's one that we need.  Maybe I've just done without proper tanks so long that I've outgrown the desire?  Either way, I can't see them displacing my exorcists.

 

I guess I'll be enlisting some dogmata, maybe the banna wava in chief.  Probably antitank paragons.  But probably not the pseudo-preds, lieutenants, lychguard, and Abbess.  And I'm deeply concerned that the new codex will gut the Triumph, given that GW's sales of the model have almost certainly reached market saturation.  And I'm super excited that I will be able to build Minoris Convictions around the Order of the Mourning Rose.

 

 

[sitnam]

I don’t play tabletop, so can’t help there. But aesthetically I love Paragons. I think they are absolutely the coolest thing in this release, and when I get my hands on them they could easily be my favorite SoB kit (a position held by the versatile BSS and Canoness kits).

 

I think you misunderstand the Dogmata. I don’t think she is going to go about policing the priesthood as much as acting as a chaplain/commissar equivalent in being more of a political officer. Rooting out failure within the Sororitas and assigning those condemned to the Repentia

[march10k]

I don’t think she is going to go about policing the priesthood as much as acting as a chaplain/commissar equivalent in being more of a political officer. 

 

Oh, I understand that she's a chaplain equivalent.  The problem is the retconning of the fluff that's necessary to create the need for dogmata.  That role has always been served by actual priests.  Fluff-wise, space marine chaplains have been different in that most chapters don't really deify the emperor in the way that the sororitas epitomize.  Whipping up righteous fury on behalf of the father of the primarchs is slightly different than whipping it up in the name of a god, even if it's ultimately the same person.  But the invention of dogmata wipes out the very idea that any mere priest could be pious enough, zealous enough, to serve the pastoral needs of the sororitas. 

 

If the dogmata turns out to be more commissar than chaplain, fine.  But that doesn't appear to be what GW is telling us.  They appear to be direct replacements for priests. Which pisses all over the strength of faith of every priest ever. That's some pretty serious fluff murder.

 

 

 my favorite SoB kit 

 

Mine has to be celestine, although the Triumph could replace her in the top spot, if I ever get around to painting it up.  That's going to be a serious time commitment!

Edited May 4, 2021 by march10k

[sitnam]

 

I don’t think she is going to go about policing the priesthood as much as acting as a chaplain/commissar equivalent in being more of a political officer. 

 

Oh, I understand that she's a chaplain equivalent.  The problem is the retconning of the fluff that's necessary to create the need for dogmata.  That role has always been served by actual priests.  Fluff-wise, space marine chaplains have been different in that most chapters don't really deify the emperor in the way that the sororitas epitomize.  Whipping up righteous fury on behalf of the father of the primarchs is slightly different than whipping it up in the name of a god, even if it's ultimately the same person.  But the invention of dogmata wipes out the very idea that any mere priest could be pious enough, zealous enough, to serve the pastoral needs of the sororitas. 

 

If the dogmata turns out to be more commissar than chaplain, fine.  But that doesn't appear to be what GW is telling us.  They appear to be direct replacements for priests. Which pisses all over the strength of faith of every priest ever. That's some pretty serious fluff murder.

 

 

 

After re-reading the article, you might be right, it kind of goes either way. The thing that makes me think political officer is the bit about assigning Sisters into Repentia and Mortifiers, but then they mention war hymns. Chaplains, for all their rousing speeches, also spend much time maintaining the chapters spiritual purity. They are just as much about dictating chapter traditions as they are inspiring their brothers. So when I see GW equate them to Chaplains, and then mention Repentia and Mortifiers, my mind goes into the commissar side of Chaplains, not the priest side.

 

I don't think the presence of Dogmata completely pisses over priests, as long as we still have priests in the Codex. It make sense (in 40k terms) for Sisters to have chaplain/commissar equivalents, and given the theme of the Sisters they are naturally going to have religious undertones. It also makes sense to have these officers are separate from priests because the Adepta Sororitas are part of but separate from the Ecclesiarchy. Their supreme commander is often a High Lord of Terra, and there exists numerous examples in the fluff of Sisters going against rogue cardinals/priests/etc.  If missionaries/preachers are taken out of the army in the next codex, I think you are completely justified.

[dracpanzer]

I agree with the OP on most of it. I'm really not seeing a way to get any of the new stuff in my list. Unless they nerf the Retributors, Repentia, Seraphim, BSS, Canoness and MM/Immolator back in to suckville like they did with Dominions. I dont have a reason to.

 

If they do that just to push the new stuff, I'll just put them on the back shelf next to my Bretonnians.

[Montford]

As an 18 year veteran of the Sisters of Battle ;) I am quite eager to see the new Codex.

 

In 2016 the Index was a godsend to me as a Sisters player. The Chapter Approved-dex was a little rough but then the Codex was quite good.

 

With the change of some rules in 9th edition at least one of our Orders should have its Convictions rewritten (Sacred Rose) and that is one of my expectations for this upcoming Codex.

 

What will be a good Unit? Will Repentia still be the best way to melee? We cannot know until we get the Codex. I am keen on the new close combat Celestians: they were always supposed to be good at it and now they should finally live up to that. The mentions the previews made of new characters may only refer to the new banner bearer and the handful of others we have seen but maybe there will be Order specific characters for the Orders other than Our Martyred Lady. I don't give this high odds but the thought still occurs: the GW we have now is markedly different in its approach to the common player than it was prior to 2016 and I never thought I would see the day that this would happen. So that's a large part of why I refuse to be pessimistic.

 

And also, what would be truly good, is if all six Orders Majoris have viable Order Convictions. I would love to see more than one or two of the Orders always being played. Bring back viable shooting and mechanized army lists! I want to run my old Sororitas Armored Cavalry competitively again where every model can either fly or has a spot inside a vehicle :)

[EmperorGTank]

First off, let me just say I am HYPED. I am just so exicted that we are getting a new codex before the very end of an edition, it feels like the curse has finally been broken! I am definitely getting something of everything other than maybe the Dogmata. The Abbess looks awesome, and as much as I know the Paragon Suits are contentious, the Gundam fan in me makes me have to get a box of them. I honestly might just repaint my few celestians as basic sisters at this point and just use the sacrestants as my bodyguards, since they feel like they have more of a place in the army than just vanilla celestians. While Aestred looks cool, it is going to completely depend on her rules, as I am just not a fan of too many special characters, Celestine and the Abbess are enough for me. I am probably getting a Castigator too, as much as I love the Exorcist, these potential nerfs that it will get make me expect that it will be a new Whirlwind and this new tank will be the bully we need for the midfield in terms of our armor, not to mention I just like conventional tank designs. Finally, I REALLY like this Dolan girl, and it looks like the perfect model to convert into a missionary or a preacher, so I could see myself getting the whole kit just to do some converting.

 

So just some speculation, according to the community posts it looks like there will be "over 35 datasheets" in the new codex. Assuming that Aestred and Dolan are going to be in one datasheet and not split up, my current count puts us at 34 datasheets between everything we currently have and the confirmed "new" units and characters (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). If Dolan IS a separate datasheet then that brings us to 35 on the nose. For it to be "over 35" there either has to be another datasheet for a variant of a unit we already have or there is still at least one other thing they have yet to reveal. I know many want one more vehicle such as a flyer or some other niche thing we just do not have, but personally I am REALLY hoping for a 2nd troops choice of some kind. If they really are treating us as the new female marines, as much as I am not a fan of that, then we need some kind of other option than just battle sisters. I am still holding out hope for frateris militia, but at this point I will take anything. Some have brought up that they could move something into the troops slot but I just do not see it happening honestly. Any thoughts people have on this are welcome, I am honestly just sick of having our Elite slot so filled with options while our Troops and Fast Attack slot (Dedicated Transports too though that is besides the point) languish with one or two choices. 

I am so happy about all the love and attention we as a faction are getting after being neglected for so long, though my wallet will definitely hate me come the summer, but I do still think there are just gaping holes in our roster that GW could easily fix and just have not chosen to do so. We do not need more buffing characters, as much as they are interesting, instead we need another option or two for certain battlefield roles. 

[Uberlord Gendo]

It might help to wait and read the fluff on the dogmata from the codex. And when it comes to religious fanatics, sin may simply be forgetting to wave the candle twice before saying the prayer again. Space Marines have had Chaplains since the Crusade despite being brainwashed and atheist. So I don't really see how dogmata can ruin much.

[Montford]

First off, let me just say I am HYPED. I am just so exicted that we are getting a new codex before the very end of an edition, it feels like the curse has finally been broken! I am definitely getting something of everything other than maybe the Dogmata. The Abbess looks awesome, and as much as I know the Paragon Suits are contentious, the Gundam fan in me makes me have to get a box of them. I honestly might just repaint my few celestians as basic sisters at this point and just use the sacrestants as my bodyguards, since they feel like they have more of a place in the army than just vanilla celestians. While Aestred looks cool, it is going to completely depend on her rules, as I am just not a fan of too many special characters, Celestine and the Abbess are enough for me. I am probably getting a Castigator too, as much as I love the Exorcist, these potential nerfs that it will get make me expect that it will be a new Whirlwind and this new tank will be the bully we need for the midfield in terms of our armor, not to mention I just like conventional tank designs. Finally, I REALLY like this Dolan girl, and it looks like the perfect model to convert into a missionary or a preacher, so I could see myself getting the whole kit just to do some converting.

 

So just some speculation, according to the community posts it looks like there will be "over 35 datasheets" in the new codex. Assuming that Aestred and Dolan are going to be in one datasheet and not split up, my current count puts us at 34 datasheets between everything we currently have and the confirmed "new" units and characters (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). If Dolan IS a separate datasheet then that brings us to 35 on the nose. For it to be "over 35" there either has to be another datasheet for a variant of a unit we already have or there is still at least one other thing they have yet to reveal. I know many want one more vehicle such as a flyer or some other niche thing we just do not have, but personally I am REALLY hoping for a 2nd troops choice of some kind. If they really are treating us as the new female marines, as much as I am not a fan of that, then we need some kind of other option than just battle sisters. I am still holding out hope for frateris militia, but at this point I will take anything. Some have brought up that they could move something into the troops slot but I just do not see it happening honestly. Any thoughts people have on this are welcome, I am honestly just sick of having our Elite slot so filled with options while our Troops and Fast Attack slot (Dedicated Transports too though that is besides the point) languish with one or two choices. 

 

I am so happy about all the love and attention we as a faction are getting after being neglected for so long, though my wallet will definitely hate me come the summer, but I do still think there are just gaping holes in our roster that GW could easily fix and just have not chosen to do so. We do not need more buffing characters, as much as they are interesting, instead we need another option or two for certain battlefield roles. 

The current Codex contains 27 Data sheets and that's including the Battle Sanctum. Even if the new standard bearer and her companion are on different data sheets that would come to 35, so by my reconing there is at least one more unit we don't have, unless they place Ephrael Stern into the Codex and that would make up the numbers, which may well be what they've done. But I'm still hoping for Sisters on jetbikes!

[Beams]

I honestly think they are phasing out the Non-denominational Ecclesiarchy stuff:

 

Priest --> Dogmata

Crusader --> Celestian with Sheild and Maul

 

We are keeping arco's, it looks like, since they got a new model, but they've also been sisters of battle for a very long time and aren't shared by another line.

 

Imperial Guard can take Priests and Crusaders, so it makes sense to me that either:

A) Imperial Guard keeps them, and we replace them

or

B) We both replace them with unique models

 

This way they don't have to figure out how Guard interacts with all the faith rules -- for a while, Guard got AoF on only the Crusaders, and then with Miracle Dice it got real weird again.

[sitnam]

I honestly think they are phasing out the Non-denominational Ecclesiarchy stuff:

 

Priest --> Dogmata

Crusader --> Celestian with Sheild and Maul

 

We are keeping arco's, it looks like, since they got a new model, but they've also been sisters of battle for a very long time and aren't shared by another line.

 

Imperial Guard can take Priests and Crusaders, so it makes sense to me that either:

A) Imperial Guard keeps them, and we replace them

or

B) We both replace them with unique models

 

This way they don't have to figure out how Guard interacts with all the faith rules -- for a while, Guard got AoF on only the Crusaders, and then with Miracle Dice it got real weird again.

I sure hope this isn't the case. Priests have long been a big part of the Sororitas lore, and it wouldn't make sense to keep Arcos and Penitent Engines, because those are tools of the Ministorum, not the Sororitas.

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 

Oh, I understand that she's a chaplain equivalent.  The problem is the retconning of the fluff that's necessary to create the need for dogmata.  That role has always been served by actual priests.  Fluff-wise, space marine chaplains have been different in that most chapters don't really deify the emperor in the way that the sororitas epitomize.  Whipping up righteous fury on behalf of the father of the primarchs is slightly different than whipping it up in the name of a god, even if it's ultimately the same person.  But the invention of dogmata wipes out the very idea that any mere priest could be pious enough, zealous enough, to serve the pastoral needs of the sororitas. 

 

If the dogmata turns out to be more commissar than chaplain, fine.  But that doesn't appear to be what GW is telling us.  They appear to be direct replacements for priests. Which pisses all over the strength of faith of every priest ever. That's some pretty serious fluff murder.

 

 

 

I get your angle, but profoundly disagree.

 

I think that chaplains are what priests always should have been, while priests are what chaplains always should have been. I think chaplains are one of the earliest examples of marines doing things that other armies specialize in better than the specialist armies themselves. That a character who doesn't actually worship the Emperor as a god has a greater capacity to achieve a wider variety of faith based effects than someone who was actually raised in and schooled by the faith has always been a problem for me, and I'm glad the Dogmata has arrived to set it right.

 

There are a lot of things that bring nuance to the argument; I think chaplains were created before sisters and possibly even priests. The rules for both have changed from edition to edition, so the balance between priests and chaplains has changed from edition to edition, with them being really close to equal in some editions. So of course, it isn't as simple as I'm making it.

 

But basically: Marines are genetically engineered, so I accept that they're stronger and tougher. They train their entire lives to fight, which is why they can do things with bolters that others can't do; I hate this, because there are far more weapons available to marines than sisters, so if anyone should have bolter specialization, it's us.... But again I begrudgingly accept it.

 

By contrast, Sisters and Missionaries aren't trained to fight from birth to fight. They are, however, born with prayers on their lips, and the idea that a champion marksman/ melee specialist who prays to something that isn't even a diety from his point of view as a secondary function to his training and purpose has more effective faith was always a mistake. Bring on the retcon. Faith is where it always should have been at last.

Edited May 5, 2021 by ThePenitentOne

[ThePenitentOne]

I honestly think they are phasing out the Non-denominational Ecclesiarchy stuff:

 

 While theoretically possible, I highly doubt it; we have plastic Arcos and Pennies, and they don't fit neatly with sisters. I am bothered by the lack of plastic Crusaders and DCA's, especiaaly since we have Gottfrett de Montbard and Knosso Prond as prototypes.

 

Dogmatas will buff Sororitas, not Ministorum. Obviously, that's a guess, but it would keep all units relevant.

[toaae]

 

I honestly think they are phasing out the Non-denominational Ecclesiarchy stuff:

 

 While theoretically possible, I highly doubt it; we have plastic Arcos and Pennies, and they don't fit neatly with sisters. I am bothered by the lack of plastic Crusaders and DCA's, especiaaly since we have Gottfrett de Montbard and Knosso Prond as prototypes.

 

Dogmatas will buff Sororitas, not Ministorum. Obviously, that's a guess, but it would keep all units relevant.

 

 

Yeah, anything recently released in plastic is very safe. There is a zero-percent chance Penitent Engines and Arco-Flagellants get cut.

 

On the flippity-flop, Crusaders, Missionaries/Priests, and Death Cult Assassins could not be in the next codex and I wouldn't bat an eye. What old models stay and go seems to be up to the whims of GW (and, presumably, their remaining stock at print time).

[toaae]

Got new rules previewed for the big lady in the big armor:

 

 

...and more! Click the link.

 

If she isn't like 400 points, this lady will be in all the lists*. She's durable, she's got a mean swing (S8, -3, 3 damage w/ MWs on 6s in addition!), she's got two d6 damage missiles, she buffs like two characters in one, plus full re-rolls to a unit. She's got it all.

*=Yes, I know, not every list and she's not for everyone.

[Vanger]

Don'r forget the heavy bolter arm :D

[Banjulhu]

"Vahl instead took to her appointment with the faith and zeal that had served her well in the Celestant order"

 

What is the Celestant order?

 

I'm guessing it's going to be the collective term for the now expanded Celestians rather than a new minor order named the Celestants.

[jarms48]

 

I don’t think she is going to go about policing the priesthood as much as acting as a chaplain/commissar equivalent in being more of a political officer. 

 

Oh, I understand that she's a chaplain equivalent.  The problem is the retconning of the fluff that's necessary to create the need for dogmata.  That role has always been served by actual priests.  Fluff-wise, space marine chaplains have been different in that most chapters don't really deify the emperor in the way that the sororitas epitomize.  Whipping up righteous fury on behalf of the father of the primarchs is slightly different than whipping it up in the name of a god, even if it's ultimately the same person.  But the invention of dogmata wipes out the very idea that any mere priest could be pious enough, zealous enough, to serve the pastoral needs of the sororitas. 

 

If the dogmata turns out to be more commissar than chaplain, fine.  But that doesn't appear to be what GW is telling us.  They appear to be direct replacements for priests. Which pisses all over the strength of faith of every priest ever. That's some pretty serious fluff murder.

 

 

 my favorite SoB kit 

 

Mine has to be celestine, although the Triumph could replace her in the top spot, if I ever get around to painting it up.  That's going to be a serious time commitment!

 

 

This just gave me a bad feeling that GW will gut all of the non-sister priests from the codex. 

[toaae]

It's certainly possible. However, the ancient preacher and missionary model are still available for purchase from GW. The Preacher is "temporarily out of stock".

Usually a model is "no longer available" when it's disappearing. I'm feeling good about the chances of the units sticking around.

[ATPete]

Got new rules previewed for the big lady in the big armor:

 

 

...and more! Click the link.

 

If she isn't like 400 points, this lady will be in all the lists*. She's durable, she's got a mean swing (S8, -3, 3 damage w/ MWs on 6s in addition!), she's got two d6 damage missiles, she buffs like two characters in one, plus full re-rolls to a unit. She's got it all.

 

*=Yes, I know, not every list and she's not for everyone.

 She's very 'brand new centrepiece character with loads of special rules' and outshines Celestine a bit, which annoys me. Living saints are unique to the sisters but big power armoured people aren't.

[adreal]

Well to be fair, we don't know celestines rules yet, and she needs a re work, lack of re rolls on her (for even herself) really hurts her combat output and her sword needs 12" on its flame profile

[Waking Dreamer]

 

 She's very 'brand new centrepiece character with loads of special rules' and outshines Celestine a bit, which annoys me. Living saints are unique to the sisters but big power armoured people aren't.

 

 

I just realised SoB will have 3 very different centrepiece models for your army codex to chose from. I'm kinda jealous.

 

Just imagining all 3 painted up and displayed side-by-side in the centre, surrounded by the rest of the army in all it's varied units...that'll be quite an enticing army to collect.   

[RolandTHTG]

 

 

 

She's very 'brand new centrepiece character with loads of special rules' and outshines Celestine a bit, which annoys me. Living saints are unique to the sisters but big power armoured people aren't.

 

I just realised SoB will have 3 very different centrepiece models for your army codex to chose from. I'm kinda jealous.

 

Just imagining all 3 painted up and displayed side-by-side in the centre, surrounded by the rest of the army in all it's varied units...that'll be quite an enticing army to collect.

That's actually my collection plan at this point. Plus the new banner bearer with the varied ones from the past wave, should look like a great processional.

[sitnam]

 

 

 

She's very 'brand new centrepiece character with loads of special rules' and outshines Celestine a bit, which annoys me. Living saints are unique to the sisters but big power armoured people aren't.

 

I just realised SoB will have 3 very different centrepiece models for your army codex to chose from. I'm kinda jealous.

 

Just imagining all 3 painted up and displayed side-by-side in the centre, surrounded by the rest of the army in all it's varied units...that'll be quite an enticing army to collect.

Wouldn't it be four? Junith, Trophy, Celestine, and the Abbess

[QuantumFlux]

 

 

 

She's very 'brand new centrepiece character with loads of special rules' and outshines Celestine a bit, which annoys me. Living saints are unique to the sisters but big power armoured people aren't.

I just realised SoB will have 3 very different centrepiece models for your army codex to chose from. I'm kinda jealous.

 

Just imagining all 3 painted up and displayed side-by-side in the centre, surrounded by the rest of the army in all it's varied units...that'll be quite an enticing army to collect.

Wouldn't it be four? Junith, Trophy, Celestine, and the Abbess

 

 

Junith only counts for OoML -- she's an excellent center piece, but if you are playing as Bloody Rose or Argent Shroud you are less likely to have her, I think.