Codex Incoming!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Should be especially good once t5 Orks drop.

[CaptainMarsh]

The strat to give Celestians +1 to hit impacts the Paragon Warsuits as well. Useful to keep in mind when you are doing math for it, especially since it is just 1 CP and it can be used when it shoots or fights. 

[Banjulhu]

I do think it's a shame that nothing has been done to the basic celestian by the sounds of things.

[taikishi]

I've been thinking about a couple of the changes and I think that the pistol buff being taken away from Blood Rose likely has to do with the Sacrosanct, while the Seraphim likely lost their range strat due to the Minor Orders buffing specific weapon types.

 

If so the changes make sense even if they're not all that great for people who were all in on Seraphim.

 

I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?

The Exorcist losing a point of AP (again), as well as losing re-rolling shots with Devastating Refrain, 1T and 1W while having it still give full VP for Bring It Down while only dropping its cost 15 points isn't the way to get people to bring Exorcists over Retributors.

[ThePenitentOne]

I do think it's a shame that nothing has been done to the basic celestian by the sounds of things.

 

I think they still double special in a 5 woman team though. This isn't a change to them, par se, but it does distinguish them given BSS loadout changes, which might keep them relevant. And they are still going to be the cheapest of the bodyguard options.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Retributors were nerfed because they were obviously crazy. GW just has a very hard time making a proper Statline for tanks that are marine anologues ever since Iron hands. Can't make them too tough, or be cheap, or have reliability or be core. Death guard got the pass because they're defensive and heavy armour centric, but everyone else got screwed.

[ThePenitentOne]

Going through Skari's review now. Ebon Chalice has some cool little hooks- I love the fact that the ability to pick 2 rites will be a whole army impact, even if you're using detachments of additional orders. Also, I was always looking for a companion for Greyfax; with that MW bonus on condemnors, I think I've found her.

[MagicHat]

Other orders won't get the second rite, only the first.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I really want to do ebon chalice; the og order, keepers of knowledge and big fire are great thematically for my custom order. But the problem is, the melee units in the book are still very tied to bloody rose. And they just added more melee units!

 

Unless the meta takes off to be psychic and horde heavy (which certainly is possible with Orks and GK and TS on their way) and you flex some melee from passion as well as the deny rite I find it hard to take over just bloody rose. Or argent shroud for non-flamer stuff.

[Blurf]

Retributors were nerfed because they were obviously crazy. GW just has a very hard time making a proper Statline for tanks that are marine anologues ever since Iron hands. Can't make them too tough, or be cheap, or have reliability or be core. Death guard got the pass because they're defensive and heavy armour centric, but everyone else got screwed.

Rhino chassis tanks were terrible LONG before that. Notice people STILL never took predators even during full strength ironhands.

[BitsHammer]

So it's worth pointing out that Acts of Faith are our monofaction bonus now. We can't gain Miracle Dice for any reason if we have non-Adepta Sororitas keyword models in the army (excluding Cult Imperialis, Agent of the Imperium and Unaligned keywords).

 

Ebon Chalice's ability doesn't hurt their ability to ally as the Rites aren't locked to mono-Sisters anymore.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Fulkes

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Retributors were nerfed because they were obviously crazy. GW just has a very hard time making a proper Statline for tanks that are marine anologues ever since Iron hands. Can't make them too tough, or be cheap, or have reliability or be core. Death guard got the pass because they're defensive and heavy armour centric, but everyone else got screwed.

Rhino chassis tanks were terrible LONG before that. Notice people STILL never took predators even during full strength ironhands.

Ya sure, iirc the last time I saw preds or Razorbacks was in November...2017. They got hammered by the super early 8th nerfs and then all space marine tanks got crippled by successive nerfs in almost every way; points going up, losing special rules, doctrine nerf for fists, core being introduced, losing combo pieces.

 

Castigator got declared guilty by association, as did the exorcist and immolator. At least there's a potential niche for the autocannon castigator at clearing bs Raiders and stuff or maybe even chicken walkers. But you know, averages 8 damage per volley at max shots against those two targets.

[BitsHammer]

I think GW hasn't worked out how to balance vehicles against mid-tier weapons. Honestly -1 Damage (min 1) should be standard on Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures.

[EmperorGTank]

So TL:DR I really like the book overall but definitely agree there are a few issues here and there, and one or two things that I just look at it and wonder what GW was thinking, but overall I think we have so many more options, ways to play the army, toys to try and tools to use that rival space marine levels of versatility in some ways. So I would say this is more of a strong sidegrade as a codex, not a downgrade at all, especially if some reviewers are comparing this book to the strength of DG or DA. Anyway, if you want to read all of my comments continue below:

I know there is some salt here when it comes to how the old codex played, and I completely understand that. You as a player (competitive or casual) built an army and made a collection out of what was pretty strong or just OP from the last book, in addition to some fluff choices of course, and everyone has the right to be annoyed that some things like Ret spam and even using Repentia in the exact same way are just nerfed or somewhat weaker. Overall though I would like to say that I am definitely happy with the new book. There is no doubt that it makes our older lists a little weaker, and other than in Argent Shroud it does not seem worth it to spam Retributors anymore, which personally I am fine with, I usually only brought a unit or two at most. Dominions getting to vanguard in their transport again, even only at 6" is a nice buff to them, and I think with or without the custom melta trait Raging Fervor, Melta minions with a combi-flamer in an Immolator can definitely work again just to go tank hunting. I do not mind the loss of Assault on the Immolation Flamers either, as they are now 18" base with Strength 6, so the same +1S that all flamer weapons got, which is so fluffy for us and definitely makes the occasional flamer or heavy flamer Ret/Dom/BSS squad not a bad pick especially with T5 orks coming as stated further above.

I personally do think we have some pretty strong combos between blessings, hymns, and strats (though I have not figured them all out yet from the reviews since my head is still spinning a bit from everything) despite losing things like rerolling wounds on zephyrim and becoming space marines in terms of BSS specials and heavies. I LOVE the buffs to Celestine, I really think she has the chance to be an actual threat in melee now with solid durability, while still handing out a small buff and having the 5++ shield of faith WT which just replaces her +1 Invuln that she had. The fact she can restore all of her wounds+bring back a Geminae with that action while STILL being able to charge and fight is so nice! Plus her flamer got buffed a little with +1S and AP too I believe. Also, SHE CAN DEEP STRIKE BECAUSE YES WHY COULD SHE NOT DO THAT SINCE LIKE 7TH? I also really think that we have so many new ways to play and lists to try to see what can be effective, our options have just increased so much even in some things got worse or were more of a sidegrade. I would rather have more solidly okay options or things that are just "good" rather than a few things that are "great" and then not much else. Sisters as an army got buffed with this just because of the increase in tools that we have and as much as I hate to be more like "female space marines" I am PSYCHED that we finally seem to have a similar level of versatility (I know I know it is not truly 1:1 BUT we are so much better off than we have been in the past). 

As with the rest of you there are a few things I am not happy about. The nerf to deadly descent hurts a bit as I loved my twin inferno pistol seraphim, though I still think a unit of them can have its place, even if you just bring a set of hand flamers and inferno pistols now instead, or drop a twin inferno squad down on a backfield objective that you cleared in a previous turn, have them hold it and then if they survive have them start jumping around the board melting stuff. There is definitely a way to use them even without the stratagem. The banning of battleforged Adeptus Ministorum only armies is also rough as I do think having the option to at least run an Ecclesiarchal force without Sisters should be available. I understand the Decree Passive, and I agree that priests or confessors leading an army of faith or crusade should never happen often at the risk of breaching it, but I am certain there are instances in the lore where only auxillary penitent or conclave forces led by a preacher or Ecclesiarchy official are used. There are definitely certain planets where a commandery or other small organization of Sisters is not present, and if on such a world a priest deems there to be heretical activity going on (as long as there is some form of "proof" to support that claim) then they should have the ability to use their own conclave or auxillary units to attempt to root it out or usurp a planetary governor that has been tainted by chaos. Of course you do not want this happening everywhere otherwise Age of Apostasy part 2 commences, but I believe there are instances where Sisters just cannot get there in time and so it may fall to the Adeptus Ministorum presence already on that world to "make it safe for the Imperium's faithful." I understand why they did this, but it is pretty sucky.

 

Regardless, even with those two things being a bit of a bummer, the rest of the book is so solid. The Minoris Convictions are in general pretty good without being incredibly OP that you would never want to take one of the main six, we gained access to a whole bunch of strength 6, some strength 7, and even a strength 9 that is not order locked, our melee is still pretty powerful, and our shooting can be equally as strong just with different units being the focus. I think Sacred Rites definitely became more of a "choose 1" option now that about half are weaker or more situational than the other half, so rolling for two is definitely riskier now that we can only use the stratagem once, but I do like that as you can still get a 2nd one on a unit you need to with a battle hymn. I had NO INTENTION of getting a Dogmata or a Dialogus, but these Hymns definitely make me think on it, and who knows I may be grabbing one since those buffs seem pretty solid when they do go off, and a Preacher or Missionary cannot use half of them. The deny on Shield of Faith ACTUALLY has a chance of doing something now that it is auto-deny on a 6, and the new units definitely have a place in the army, especially Vahl, as she is a definite BEAST at 265. I could go on and on with what I have seen so far but from what I am looking at in the various review videos I have seen so far (and I have spent more hours than I would like to admit watching them this past weekend with how hyped I was) every "nerf" that a unit or currently competitive/upper tier list received was offset with a buff to something else, and in general buffs were given to plenty of units either through datasheet changes, strats, hymns, or blessings. Our relics are not too bad either, there are definitely some more interesting choices instead of just taking Litanies and Book each time now.

The one thing that definitely baffles me is the Imagifier change to her Stoic Tale. I believe she DOES have a place for reroll charges and advances or +1 strength, or both with the relic, but I just cannot understand why "-1 to wound within 6" but only on Strength 3 or less" was even considered. I get it, doing it for Strength 4 would make it busted to some degree, but maybe just do "-1 to wound on Strength 6 or more" so at least it makes 2s go to 3s? I have to assume there was a niche reason for this, or there was a thought process that just did not go far enough maybe, but there is definitely a part of me that hopes this is a typo of some kind lol.

The Exorcist nerf is the one other part of the book that definitely hurts me since I have always loved that unit, and I keep telling myself it was just so they could sell the Castigator, because it definitely was. As much as it annoys me, looking at that Battle Cannon and even Autocannon I do think that tank is solid. We lacked Strength 9 in this army, and getting d6 shots at AP-3 and Flat 3 damage is just an option other armies had but we did not, so I am willing to understand the Exorcist changes to accept getting something we just did not have, though I know losing a T8 platform is tough on us, but I always said to myself if at least it is solid range and strength 9 somewhere I will take it. 72" Strength 9 (plus that Strength 6 anti-infantry option that ignores cover and is the same shots as an Exorcist missile launcher) is something we desperately needed as an army, and will definitely make AM jealous at least right! Personally, I feel like the Exorcist is still a playable option if even you just bring one, sit it behind something and use the strat to nuke things sitting on backfield objectives out of LoS of it toward the middle and end of the game. Maybe you even use the anti infantry rockets just to keep it cheap at this point, since they also ignore cover so the AP -1 is not as bad, though the fact they did not get damage 2 like we saw from that leak makes me a bit sad. If the Stratagem was 1CP instead of 2 I think all the other changes would have been fine, though of course just having it innately would have been the best. Finally, I really do think the missles needed to come down in points along with the unit itself. I honestly think the Castigator should be more than the anti-tank version of the Exorcist if only by a little, and a fully kitted out Castigator I believe is 175 points (Battle Cannon, Storm Bolter, HKM). So had the Exorcist Missiles just dropped to 15 points instead of 30 then the Castigator would be 175 while the anti-tank Exorcist would be 165. In fact they would be the same coast with the Battle Cannon version of the Castigator, and the Castigator would be slightly cheaper with just the Autocannons. 180 points for the Exorcist seems like too much right now for missles that will at best bring most vehicles to 5+ saves and the 150 point anti-infantry version has its place, but still feels like redundancy for an army of mostly small arms fire at Strength 4 and 5. I guess for me, I see the merit in both tanks, one for that strength 9 option that we have never had, and one to snipe units sitting out of LoS, and for 350 points worth of tanks (for one of each) I do think they will make back their points in some way throughout a game as long as you do not just put them out in the open. 3 of each tank or even of one? Probably not. 2 of one of them? Maybe, but also probably not, at least competitively, but one of each has a role even with the state of vehicles right now. I have not done all the mathhammer on them and I do not intend to. I know I want to make use of my motor pool of tanks in various casual games, and the Castigator will be joining that along with my rhino, 2 Exorcists, and 2 Immolators, but I realize both tanks are still a bit underwhelming for T7, 11 wound models. Regardless, I love the Exorcist and always will, and may just choose divine guidance every game so it has the chance to get AP -3 again on its missles and hey the Castigator can get to AP -4 on its battle cannon too!

I know this was horribly long and rambly, so I appreciate it if you made it to the bottom here. I know I sound like a very mixed bag in most of this, but I really do like this book from all the reviews I have seen so far. I feel very strongly about the Exorcist nerfs as you can tell, but everything else is just mildly annoying or was expected with where we were at coming into 9th. There are many things that I look at and say " wow we have never had that and I have always wanted that in this army." The flamer strength buffs are solid, and I built some just in case this ever happend so I am glad to be able to use them in a few units. The strength 9 battle cannon is good despite being d6 shots, plus the range is something else we have never had. Even that autocannon has 4d3 shots and strength 7 is another niche we never had much of in terms of ranged weapons. Blessings are going to be strong when used correctly and on the right turns, 20 woman sister blobs or even just one in the army sitting on an objective with that 2CP strat are going to work and be a thing somewhere. Hymns are going to help stack buffs, Vahl is going to be a staple in many lists, even the Paragon Warsuits will see play in some kind of build, they are still Celestians and can get that +1 to hit strat so a mace in each squad may be necessary after all, though I do prefer the blades personally. The minor orders FINALLY give us a way to run fluffy personal orders of sisters with some decently strong rules. We have a strat where we can jump up and re-deep strike with jump units, and the Hospitaller now seems like a strong take in most footslogging lists, especially with those big blobs of girls since her strat brings back d3 models. Repentia are STILL very usable and the Repentia Superior has a real reason to go with them now. Yea our vehicle pool is not great, just like the rest of everyone else's (except DG sure) but they definitely have a role and at least the Exorcist finally DOES ignore LoS in some way. If nothing else Celestians and Sacresants can actually protect "ORDER" and "SANCTIFIED" characters now with their bodyguard rule and just prevent them from being shot at, so I believe Vahl, Celestine, the Triumph, and of course the generic Sister HQs can all be bodyguarded finally, though do not quote me on that, only have seen so much of the book so far but I know Vahl at least is Sanctified. I know there are things some will not like about the new codex, and I know it will definitely change how we play our old lists, but we have so many new things to try and new things that I think are going to be game changing in many ways when used correctly. There is a bunch of "good" and "great" in this book instead of a bunch of "okay" and a few "oh boy that is busted." We feel balanced against most of the other 9th codices now (yea yea DE is still gonna be rough I am sure) but we have not lost much with this codex, just the ability to expect the old lists to play exactly the same as they have up to this point. Even if you just consider this book a sidegrade, there are still plenty of buffs just from the options we now have, as I have said many times in this post. Finally, I look at much of this book and say to myself "wow we ALWAYS should have had this and this is something I have wanted for so long, they really gave it to us" and while I know that cannot be said of everything (Frateris Militia, Custom Living Saint model/datasheet in matched play not just Crusade/Plastic Priest or Missionary model that is not a BSF one please) it really does feel like GW finally UNDERSTANDS what we do or at least a part of it, and they have given us plenty of options to do not only what THEY think we should be able to do, but what we WANT to do as well. 

Sorry for the long post, but I just wanted to say all of this. Overall this really is good and better in many ways, it is not all completely positive, but I for one am satisfied with everything we have gotten so far, and I am exicted to test it out with the models we have and the ones we are getting! We are still an upper tier army and maybe we will not truly be "top tier" anymore, but I think we will find we can go toe to toe with the best of them and hope to win! Honestly, that is definitely better than we have been in the other 6 editions (not including 8th here and we were not a thing until 2nd) of our existence.

Edited June 7, 2021 by EmperorGTank

[Toxichobbit]

 

 

 If nothing else Celestians and Sacresants can actually protect "ORDER" and "SANCTIFIED" characters now with their bodyguard rule and just prevent them from being shot at, so I believe Vahl, Celestine, the Triumph, and of course the generic Sister HQs can all be bodyguarded finally, though do not quote me on that, only have seen so much of the book so far but I know Vahl at least is Sanctified.

 

Vahl, Junith, Celestine, Geminae Superior, Aestrid, Triumph, Cannoness, Palatine, Imagifier, Dialogus, Hospitaller, Dogmata and Repentia Superior can all be bodyguarded.

 

Stern, Kyganil, Agathae*, Missionary and Preacher can not be bodyguarded.

 

* If I'm reading it right, she can still be protected by Bodyguard - while Bodyguard protects the entire character unit, it is only triggered by a Sanctified character or <Order> character unit. Agathae is neither, so Bodyguard only works as long as Aestrid is within 3" of the Celestians. Attacks have to be allocated to Agathae first and if Aestrid somehow dies while Agathae is still alive, Agathae is also destroyed. So there's never going to be a situation where she's on her own.

 

Edit: Also, I'm seeing some confusion in this thread about how Miracle Dice are generated. Someone mentioned they weren't generated at the start of the turn (and the Goonhammer review doesn't say they are either). I'm not sure if this has been addressed already (didn't notice anyone saying anything), but regardless it's false. You generate one Miracle Dice at the start of each battle round. 

 

Mortifiers can now contribute to generating them (but still can't use them) by destroying enemy units as it's now tied to the Adeptus Sororitas keyword, not the Acts of Faith rule, which while it doesn't offset no longer generating them from Deny the Witch and Morale tests, is something at least.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Toxichobbit

[SkimaskMohawk]

Good stuff, thanks for going a bit in depth!

 

I've had Stern at about 90% and kyganil at barely started for a while and I'm excited to hear that they're better now. Goonhammer said all their individual rules got rolled into the unit, does anyone know if Mysterious Saviour's 5+++ made it in? Like if the unit is -1 to hit and wound, with a 4++ and a 5+++ to back it all up? And kyganil essentially being 5 ablative wounds that can't be spilled over I guess.

[Blurf]

People always say they have more options when a book gets worse. If you have more options because the good options got taken away, that's not exactly better.

 

Hyperbole to illustrate: 'Well, we can't have bacon and eggs for breakfast anymore, but since that option got removed we now have the compelling choice between: a can of sardines I found in the back of the cupboard and a fruitcake from 6 Christmases ago!'

[CaptainMarsh]

Yes. Kyganil must take wounds first and as long as he is alive the unit has a 5+ FnP. If somehow she is destroyed, he is also destroyed. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yes. Kyganil must take wounds first and as long as he is alive the unit has a 5+ FnP. If somehow she is destroyed, he is also destroyed.

That's really good then. How about other things like knight of shadows ASF or the movement stat?

 

@blurf I tend to agree that there isn't really more options. More options implies multiple ways to do a similar thing; we know for things like miracle dice generation or manipulation there's less. Long range anti tank, less. Reserve spike damage, less.

 

There's different options and more units to choose from. But that's not quite the same as having more options to get to the same archtype of list.

Edited June 7, 2021 by SkimaskMohawk

[BitsHammer]

Had a thought about OML: it feels like a good pick for mechanized Sisters lists. 10 BSS + a Rhino seems like a decent way to gain faith dice by forcing them to pop your metal boxes while taking enough bodies to make the BSS inside likely to benefit from the +1 to hit bonus.

 

Though if I missed something I'm sure someone will tell me I'm am idiot any minute now.

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's an interesting thought, though I'd go with higher impact units on the whole. Stuff like dominions, celestians or even retributors who really want to use the movement and protection and then can sacrifice a model to the disembark roll and boost their output. Its too bad a lot of the melee options like repentia or sacresants just feel wasted not going into bloody rose. Though I guess you could do a bloody rose detachment with ooml rhinos?

 

Edit: the 8th edition sheet prevents from mixing different different order passengers and transports

Edited June 7, 2021 by SkimaskMohawk

[CaptainMarsh]

 

Yes. Kyganil must take wounds first and as long as he is alive the unit has a 5+ FnP. If somehow she is destroyed, he is also destroyed.

That's really good then. How about other things like knight of shadows ASF or the movement stat?

Knight of Shadow ASF remains. They also have a 4++ and are -1 to hit and wound.

[BitsHammer]

That's an interesting thought, though I'd go with higher impact units on the whole. Stuff like dominions, celestians or even retributors who really want to use the movement and protection and then can sacrifice a model to the disembark roll and boost their output. Its too bad a lot of the melee options like repentia or sacresants just feel wasted not going into bloody rose. Though I guess you could do a bloody rose detachment with ooml rhinos?

 

Edit: the 8th edition sheet prevents from mixing different different order passengers and transports

Repentia are definitely more of a defensive tool than an offensive one outside of Bloody Rose, but they have one thung going for them: the strat that lets them hurt things as they die in melee. With the increase of "strikes last" in the game they can still take something out as they die which isn't something that Arcos can say.

[Toxichobbit]

 

That's really good then. How about other things like knight of shadows ASF or the movement stat?

 

 

They're now a unit, not two separate characters who deploy together. Stern has gone up to M8 and A5, but down to T3. Kyganil's stats haven't changed. Harlequin's Kiss has changed to D2. Sanctity now ignores invulnerable saves. They can now only be included in Adeptus Sororitas or Auxiliary Support detachments, no more taking them in an Imperium detachment. Divine Protection affects both of them and is 4+ invulnerable, -1 to hit and wound. Kyganil still has the 5+ ignore wounds. As long as Kyganil is alive they both fight first. They reduce any Chaos unit's Ld by 1 and cause an extra model to flee on a failed morale. The mortal wounds ability now triggers D6 wounds on a 10+. They gained Zealot.

 

I think that's roughly all the changes.

 

An extra attack, striking first, ignoring invulnerable saves (for Stern) and re-rolling misses with Zealot is a decent combat boost. The -1 T isn't a huge deal IMO because Kyganil is more survivable with the -1s and you need to kill him to get to Stern. All in all, I think they got buffed.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya goonhammer mentioned they were good and I think with all those things they're both a decent amount of damage and a pain to get rid of.