Codex Incoming!

[Blurf]

So I found a leaked copy of the book and I'm a bit confused by why goonhammer said you'll only be able to go to a 5++ for most things. Maybe they meant you can't make your entire army a blob of 4++, but you can certainly make a key infantry unit (like a blob of 20) have it.

 

The way I read it their concern was more with how practical and effective putting out a 4++ was with the new limits, rather than just flat out saying you couldn't. They do mention the hymn that gives you +1 to invul.

So something I heard on Skari's coverage of the book I hadn't heard elsewhere was Seraphim to 2 Attacks and Zemphrim to 3 Attacks base.

Yes. It is why the Zeph are a sidegrade rather than a downgrade, like some were claiming them to be.

 

It works out to be a 10%ish nerf. They're the same against T3 but slightly worse against T4+.

Nope. The entire unit is 10W: 6 for Celestine, 2 for each Geminae. Geminae must take the damage first, then any attacks assigned to Celestine subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic of the attack (no minimum).

To add to this: Celestine can heal to full any model in the unit that is wounded as well as res a Gemini by performing an action in the shooting phase, so she's even harder to get rid of now.

Action starts in the command phase I believe and ends in the shooting phase. So she can't move or shoot but can still charge.

 

Edit: ninja'd

I think in every review I have watched the reviewer comments that Seraphim don't work as well as they used to with the Deploy Scramblers secondary.

 

I'm pretty sure that Secondary is not in the game now as I don't see it in the 2021 Mission Pack.

Like, ya scramblers is gone. But ROD has the same mechanics of "action at the end of the movement phase" so with the old deadly descent you could drop, shoot and ROD. Now you can't. It's the same thing.

 

If both happen at the end of the movement phase you choose the order. As far as I could tell both still happen at the end of the movement phase. Does deadley not do that anymore? When DOES it go off then?

Fulkes talking about Sacrosancts got me thinking. What is everyone's thoughts on Valorous Heart Sacrosancts and Paragons? Layering AP reduction on top of their built in defense? And I forgot off the top of my head if they share the -1 to be wounded stratagem. Just adds up to units I probably wouldn't want to have slog through.

 

Paragons are still 4W with only a 6++. They're basically a free kill for melta or dark lances even with the -1 and Sacrosants are 1W T3. They're tough enough to require actual investment to kill but they're not exactly a stone wall.

 

VH protection on sacrosants isn't a bad idea and Sacrosants themselves are already pretty solid so you could do worse. AP reduction for paragons likely won't help. They're really a victim of the current meta of anti-tank weapons.

Edited June 8, 2021 by toaae

[adreal]

So has anyone actually seen the codex in the wilds of the internet, or is this all from the YouTube videos?

 

I only ask because I want to track down more info on crusade and more info on custom orders

[Purifying Tempest]

Again, I said elsewhere: everything in WH40K is destructible, well... maybe not Vall, but that's another discussion.

 

Living in fear of your opponent throwing Dark Lances at your Paragons dismisses that you have transports, exorcists, castigators, mortifiers, etc.  If you bring a tide of infantry and a squad of Paragons, sure... probably setting them up for a short game.  But if you make your opponent make hard decisions on where those weapons get pointed, they'll eventually run out of shots and have to start compromising on what gets targeted down turn-by-turn.

 

Not fielding Paragons because Dark Lances exists is the most inane argument ever in a game where "everything can wound anything".

 

Also: Deadly I believe is still at the end of the Movement phase for the shooting out of sequence part of the strat.  I don't believe it has changed outside of the range of pistols not being extended.

[ThePenitentOne]

So has anyone actually seen the codex in the wilds of the internet, or is this all from the YouTube videos?

 

I only ask because I want to track down more info on crusade and more info on custom orders

 

Yeah, Skari's 4 hour review didn't touch Crusade... Except the new standard bearer has a datacard ability that buffs Saint point gain for Saints Potentia- the first example so far of a data card ability interacting with Crusade. Warcom only previewed one of five trials.

 

I haven't yet found another source that does any better. Goons might review Crusade content before the dex drops; their review of the dex didn't touch it.

 

Edit: Sisters Crusade review on Goons!!!!!

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-adepta-sororitas-crusade-review/

Edited June 9, 2021 by ThePenitentOne

[SkimaskMohawk]

Blurf I missed the part in indomitable belief when they said there was no other aura way to boost shield of faith.

 

As to the zepherym, if youre comparing both without strats the old ones are a bit better. But with both on tear them down the new ones start doing more. Embodied prophecy makes them pull ahead even more.

 

Deadly descent used to happen right in the reserve step, now it's end of phase. End of phase rules say that end of phase rules happen after action completion and that they end the phase. It's not quite a slam dunk, but it shows there's an expected order of things where actions happen first. Maybe there's more about picking what gets priority. The app is a bit terrible for looking up rules.

[Blurf]

Again, I said elsewhere: everything in WH40K is destructible, well... maybe not Vall, but that's another discussion.

 

Living in fear of your opponent throwing Dark Lances at your Paragons dismisses that you have transports, exorcists, castigators, mortifiers, etc. If you bring a tide of infantry and a squad of Paragons, sure... probably setting them up for a short game. But if you make your opponent make hard decisions on where those weapons get pointed, they'll eventually run out of shots and have to start compromising on what gets targeted down turn-by-turn.

 

Not fielding Paragons because Dark Lances exists is the most inane argument ever in a game where "everything can wound anything".

 

Also: Deadly I believe is still at the end of the Movement phase for the shooting out of sequence part of the strat. I don't believe it has changed outside of the range of pistols not being extended.

He wanted to know if VH protection would help paragons. I answered no because the things that shoot best at them will likely be the current meta AP-3 and AP-4 antitank weapons that are very popular and VH won't help against those.

 

If he had asked a follow-up I would have suggested using Argent shroud or bloody Rose. Since the Paragon suits are not particularly survivable it's better to invest in their offense rather than their defense . aggression is the best way to counter fragility

 

Handflamers and bolt pistols can still shoot. Not as many good targets but it's something.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Blurf

[Blurf]

Blurf I missed the part in indomitable belief when they said there was no other aura way to boost shield of faith.

 

As to the zepherym, if youre comparing both without strats the old ones are a bit better. But with both on tear them down the new ones start doing more. Embodied prophecy makes them pull ahead even more.

 

Deadly descent used to happen right in the reserve step, now it's end of phase. End of phase rules say that end of phase rules happen after action completion and that they end the phase. It's not quite a slam dunk, but it shows there's an expected order of things where actions happen first. Maybe there's more about picking what gets priority. The app is a bit terrible for looking up rules.

I wasn't aware they had changed the rules for action timings. At the very least, as far as I can tell, if we can't do it now we likely weren't supposed to be able to do it before.

[CaptainMarsh]

It isn't that Blurf is wrong on a purely mathematical basis. The new Zeph are worse than the Zeph of two weeks ago mathematically, without including anything else other than their datasheet. My contention is that the recent Zeph were *never* going to remain as they were since the Power Sword changed, so the drop in effectiveness being as small as it is comes across to most as a positive development, especially when the price drop is taken into consideration. 
Math wise, we'll do three scenarios: Old Zeph, Recent Zeph, Modern Zeph Squads. Understanding that the Recent Zep Squad had a near 0% chance of remaining. This is Order Agnostic- BR will of course exacerbate any math. Later, I'll do BR with Recent and Zeph and the BR strat.

 

Old Zeph: 21 attacks, WS 3+, S3 re-rolling wounds.

Recent Zeph: 21 attacks, WS 3+, S4 re-rolling wounds.

Modern Zeph: 31 attacks, WS3+, S4 no re-rolling wounds.

 

T3:

Old- 14 hits, 10.5 wounds.

Recent- 14 hits, 12.4 wounds.

Modern- 20.67 hits, 13.78 wounds.

 

T4:

Old- 14 hits, 7.8 wounds.

Recent- 14 hits, 10.5 wounds.

Modern- 20.67 hits, 10.4 wounds.

 

T5:

Old- 14 hits, 7.8 wounds.

Recent- 14 hits, 7.8 wounds.

Modern- 20.67 hits, 6.89 wounds.

 

T6-7:

Old- 14 hits, 4.4 wounds.

Recent- 14 hits, 7.8 wounds.

Modern- 20.67 hits, 6.89 wounds.

 

T8+:

Old- 14 hits, 4.4 wounds.

Recent- 14 hits, 4.4 wounds.

Modern- 21 hits, 3.4 wounds.

 

Might be small math issues, doing it essentially off the top of my head at the moment.

 

So, Order Agnostic, the Recent Zeph Squad is clearly the best. Except anyone who kept their expectations realistic knew they would change once the Power Sword changed. The only true comparison that could be made is with the original squad, since the in-between stats come from edition weapon changes, not the unit itself. Not pictured here is the one point drop, 2 CP Stratagem for +1 to wound for *any* Order that can be used in a key charge, or the BR Strategem that while not as good still works well with the 41 attacks their Zephyrim would get.

[Blurf]

Blurf I missed the part in indomitable belief when they said there was no other aura way to boost shield of faith.

 

As to the zepherym, if youre comparing both without strats the old ones are a bit better. But with both on tear them down the new ones start doing more. Embodied prophecy makes them pull ahead even more.

 

Deadly descent used to happen right in the reserve step, now it's end of phase. End of phase rules say that end of phase rules happen after action completion and that they end the phase. It's not quite a slam dunk, but it shows there's an expected order of things where actions happen first. Maybe there's more about picking what gets priority. The app is a bit terrible for looking up rules.

I wasn't aware they had changed the rules for action timings. At the very least, as far as I can tell, if we can't do it now we likely weren't supposed to be able to do it before.

 

I'm also not a huge fan in investing that much in zephyrim tbh. I wasn't totally enamored with them before the changes. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well scramblers/rod action is end of phase. The old wording for deadly descent made it happen in the reserve step, which is by definition, not the end of the phase. Obviously there were no actions in 8th, but they never FAQd it to prevent the interaction so I can't really say how it was supposed to interact with actions before.

[Montford]

Speaking of ROD I think I'll see if I can field a pair of Crusaders to help me get that Secondary. Or maybe more than one pair.

[Blurf]

Well scramblers/rod action is end of phase. The old wording for deadly descent made it happen in the reserve step, which is by definition, not the end of the phase. Obviously there were no actions in 8th, but they never FAQd it to prevent the interaction so I can't really say how it was supposed to interact with actions before.

I guess it depends on the exact wording because if they both happen at end of phase, as far as I know, turn player gets to determine sequencing for parallel events, so you could theoretically shoot first then do the action, both at end of phase.

[BitsHammer]

So....if Thousand Sons and Grey Knights start getting silly: Puryifying Recitations (+3) + Pure of Will (+3 and 2 denies) = +6 to your Warlord's 2x deny attempts (and you can take a Null Rod to give -1 to psyker's casting attempts in 12").

[CaptainMarsh]

 

So....if Thousand Sons and Grey Knights start getting silly: Puryifying Recitations (+3) + Pure of Will (+3 and 2 denies) = +6 to your Warlord's 2x deny attempts (and you can take a Null Rod to give -1 to psyker's casting attempts in 12").

 

That combo does not work, in fact it was called out. Purifying Recitations does not stack with other rules that add to Deny the Witch results, IE Pure of Will.

 

However, it still gives +3 Army-wide. Also to hurt psykers: One of the Sacred Rites turns the SoF auto-deny of a 6 to a 5 or a 6.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

So....if Thousand Sons and Grey Knights start getting silly: Puryifying Recitations (+3) + Pure of Will (+3 and 2 denies) = +6 to your Warlord's 2x deny attempts (and you can take a Null Rod to give -1 to psyker's casting attempts in 12").

 

That combo does not work, in fact it was called out. Purifying Recitations does not stack with other rules that add to Deny the Witch results, IE Pure of Will.

 

However, it still gives +3 Army-wide. Also to hurt psykers: One of the Sacred Rites turns the SoF auto-deny of a 6 to a 5 or a 6.

 

Good catch. I missed that. Well GW caught an "obvious combo", so that must be why the internet hates the codex atm.

[Blurf]

 

 

So....if Thousand Sons and Grey Knights start getting silly: Puryifying Recitations (+3) + Pure of Will (+3 and 2 denies) = +6 to your Warlord's 2x deny attempts (and you can take a Null Rod to give -1 to psyker's casting attempts in 12").

 

That combo does not work, in fact it was called out. Purifying Recitations does not stack with other rules that add to Deny the Witch results, IE Pure of Will.

However, it still gives +3 Army-wide. Also to hurt psykers: One of the Sacred Rites turns the SoF auto-deny of a 6 to a 5 or a 6.

Good catch. I missed that. Well GW caught an "obvious combo", so that must be why the internet hates the codex atm.

It could also be the widespread nerfs, nonsensical rules (only flamer immos explode! -1 to wound on S3!) Or lazy typos(Celestine immune to damage 1, paragon 240pts per model!)

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

So....if Thousand Sons and Grey Knights start getting silly: Puryifying Recitations (+3) + Pure of Will (+3 and 2 denies) = +6 to your Warlord's 2x deny attempts (and you can take a Null Rod to give -1 to psyker's casting attempts in 12").

That combo does not work, in fact it was called out. Purifying Recitations does not stack with other rules that add to Deny the Witch results, IE Pure of Will.

However, it still gives +3 Army-wide. Also to hurt psykers: One of the Sacred Rites turns the SoF auto-deny of a 6 to a 5 or a 6.

Good catch. I missed that. Well GW caught an "obvious combo", so that must be why the internet hates the codex atm.

It could also be the widespread nerfs, nonsensical rules (only flamer immos explode! -1 to wound on S3!) Or lazy typos(Celestine immune to damage 1, paragon 240pts per model!)

 

Most of the nerfs make sense when you look at how the book was being played, and most of them were very small debuffs in order to make the playstyle more interesting. Yes we did see 1 bad Imagifier tale, and the reduction of the auto-explode to being flamer only Immolators was a bit of a "why?" moment, but the book is generally solid.

 

And considering I've seen the kind of written material the US government puts out with billions of dollars of funding behind it and it STILL has errors, I'm going to give GW a pass on an obvious mistake. That or give them a chance to tell us that it's not a mistake.

 

Seriously, people need to watch their salt intake. It's not healthy to have that much in your diet.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Fulkes

[Blurf]

 

 

 

 

 

So....if Thousand Sons and Grey Knights start getting silly: Puryifying Recitations (+3) + Pure of Will (+3 and 2 denies) = +6 to your Warlord's 2x deny attempts (and you can take a Null Rod to give -1 to psyker's casting attempts in 12").

 

That combo does not work, in fact it was called out. Purifying Recitations does not stack with other rules that add to Deny the Witch results, IE Pure of Will.

However, it still gives +3 Army-wide. Also to hurt psykers: One of the Sacred Rites turns the SoF auto-deny of a 6 to a 5 or a 6.

Good catch. I missed that. Well GW caught an "obvious combo", so that must be why the internet hates the codex atm.

It could also be the widespread nerfs, nonsensical rules (only flamer immos explode! -1 to wound on S3!) Or lazy typos(Celestine immune to damage 1, paragon 240pts per model!)

Most of the nerfs make sense when you look at how the book was being played, and most of them were very small debuffs in order to make the playstyle more interesting. Yes we did see 1 bad Imagifier tale, and the reduction of the auto-explode to being flamer only Immolators was a bit of a "why?" moment, but the book is generally solid.

 

And considering I've seen the kind of written material the US government puts out with billions of dollars of funding behind it and it STILL has errors, I'm going to give GW a pass on an obvious mistake. That or give them a chance to tell us that it's not a mistake.

 

Seriously, people need to watch their salt intake. It's not healthy to have that much in your diet.

It's all ready well established that I believe the changes resulted in the playstyle of the army not changing at all(except becoming less effective) and no meaningful options being added so I'll save us both the hassle and skip that.

 

I feel like failing the redesign of several key abilities in the book is a bigger deal than you're giving it credit for but I'll skip that too.

 

But making the same exact error in two seperate units in both the main codex and a warhammer community article and then making another major error in both the munitorum manual and the codex with no one catching any of them, it is not unreasonable to assume that there was a lack of concern or effort somewhere in the process.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Blurf

[BitsHammer]

Blurf, you do know how "copy paste" works right? It's not hard for a mistake to repeat itself if you copy paste it over to prevent transcription errors. This kind of stuff is not that uncommon and you're making it to be a massive case of negligence when it was likely someone who doesn't write the rules was tasked with pasting in rules or points costs from a different document. Should it have been caught? Maybe. It's easy to forget how our brains smooth over mistakes based on what it expect to be there meaning that it could have easily been missed by accident.

 

And I don't believe the redesign is as bad as you claim. At this point it's clear that a lot of people are still reacting emotionally to the changes in the book, not comparing them to what we had to get a clearer picture on how much actually changed much less trying to see how to make the changes work instead of immediately blasting the book as worse just because it's no longer trying to push the leading edge in broken.

 

The old book, as much as I liked it, had balance issues internally and externally. Most of those have been looked at and tweaked to smooth a lot of the rough spots down. Is it weaker? Very slightly. But I'd argue this change is a good one as we do not need a book that is the next Drukhari. Taking a step back in power to have a more balanced book that is more interesting to play is far better than a book that buffs everything up to the strongest points of the old book, both for the game and the faction.

[EmperorGTank]

I would just like to chime in here and say that, while I also enjoyed the 8th edition codex immensely (and definitely had a higher win rate with it out of the games I DID get to play than I probably should have), there were things that were definitely oppressive about it. For example, Retributors and Zephyrim are two units that were definitely good to great before the wargear changes, and once those occurred their abilities made them incredibly efficient/busted to some degree, retributors especially, as we are all aware. Deadly Descent, as much as I love my infeno pistol seraphim, definitely needed some kind of balance, if only to make hand flamers more viable in addition to their strength increase. These units could definitely lead to some NPEs (Negative Play Experiences for any who are unaware) for opponents and, in addition to being strong, I want Sisters to be an army that is as much fun to play against as to play with. As Fulkes mentioned, this book to some degree is very slightly weaker, and honestly I don't think that will be the end all of it, I do believe that there are going to be some equally oppressive combos as the last book once we as a player base find them. But even if we do not, and this book is "weaker" it is only weaker comparably to where we were which was one of the top armies and personally I am FINE with being an A or B+ tier army instead of an S one. For edition after edition, and I only started playing at the end of 4th/early 5th so I do not know nearly as much pain as many of you I am sure, we languished as a bottom tier army. So going from an S tier top 3 or 5 faction down to maybe just top 10 or something is completely okay and really SHOULD be okay with us. 

Again, I just want to reiterate that while the "options" argument can be considered a bandaid for whatever hurt some may feel about the book, the fact remains there are just some things we can definitely do with some of these units that we could not with the previous book. We can more reliably deal with T8 from ranged, and from 72" ranged at that, with the Castigator (yes I know how bad vehicles are right now but a unit with S9 is still something we have never had). We have strength 6 throughout the army in many ways now, and not just in melee. We can play blob sisters with big buffs or still go MSU and just pack some sneaky special weapons in if we like, and we have special characters that really do FEEL special and strong and that all play a role in the army. We can get -1 to hit on some units, negate invulnerable saves, stop rerolls, snipe characters to some degree, get army wide master artisans, and even choose both of our sacred rites with Ebon Chalice now. Yes Miracle Dice generation is definitely lower now, but we can still run detachments that help us generate them just as frequently as before if we want. Even Retributors can be just as great as they were in Argent Shroud. We STILL have ways to play the old ways if we use the right orders and buff synergies. 

That on top of all the cool units we have gotten (even if the Paragon Warsuits are underwhelming in the end) makes this book awesome to me. I think we can still play as casual or competitive as we like and we will definitely remain a strong faction throughout 9th, maybe not as strong as the busted force we were but still an upper tier army! That is cool with me!

[BitsHammer]

I would just like to chime in here and say that, while I also enjoyed the 8th edition codex immensely (and definitely had a higher win rate with it out of the games I DID get to play than I probably should have), there were things that were definitely oppressive about it. For example, Retributors and Zephyrim are two units that were definitely good to great before the wargear changes, and once those occurred their abilities made them incredibly efficient/busted to some degree, retributors especially, as we are all aware. Deadly Descent, as much as I love my infeno pistol seraphim, definitely needed some kind of balance, if only to make hand flamers more viable in addition to their strength increase. These units could definitely lead to some NPEs (Negative Play Experiences for any who are unaware) for opponents and, in addition to being strong, I want Sisters to be an army that is as much fun to play against as to play with. As Fulkes mentioned, this book to some degree is very slightly weaker, and honestly I don't think that will be the end all of it, I do believe that there are going to be some equally oppressive combos as the last book once we as a player base find them. But even if we do not, and this book is "weaker" it is only weaker comparably to where we were which was one of the top armies and personally I am FINE with being an A or B+ tier army instead of an S one. For edition after edition, and I only started playing at the end of 4th/early 5th so I do not know nearly as much pain as many of you I am sure, we languished as a bottom tier army. So going from an S tier top 3 or 5 faction down to maybe just top 10 or something is completely okay and really SHOULD be okay with us. 

 

Again, I just want to reiterate that while the "options" argument can be considered a bandaid for whatever hurt some may feel about the book, the fact remains there are just some things we can definitely do with some of these units that we could not with the previous book. We can more reliably deal with T8 from ranged, and from 72" ranged at that, with the Castigator (yes I know how bad vehicles are right now but a unit with S9 is still something we have never had). We have strength 6 throughout the army in many ways now, and not just in melee. We can play blob sisters with big buffs or still go MSU and just pack some sneaky special weapons in if we like, and we have special characters that really do FEEL special and strong and that all play a role in the army. We can get -1 to hit on some units, negate invulnerable saves, stop rerolls, snipe characters to some degree, get army wide master artisans, and even choose both of our sacred rites with Ebon Chalice now. Yes Miracle Dice generation is definitely lower now, but we can still run detachments that help us generate them just as frequently as before if we want. Even Retributors can be just as great as they were in Argent Shroud. We STILL have ways to play the old ways if we use the right orders and buff synergies. 

 

That on top of all the cool units we have gotten (even if the Paragon Warsuits are underwhelming in the end) makes this book awesome to me. I think we can still play as casual or competitive as we like and we will definitely remain a strong faction throughout 9th, maybe not as strong as the busted force we were but still an upper tier army! That is cool with me!

Well said. The buffs to weapon profiles was definitely a contributing factor to a number of the changes for sure.

 

Speaking of changes, Goonhammer has a review on Crusade up: https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-adepta-sororitas-crusade-review/

[Closet Skeleton]

What's illogical about the Immolator explosions? Its generally the flamer units like Hellhounds that have that kind of rule. If a Heavy Bolter immolator was extra explody a Castigator should be even more so.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@blurf ya it was totally the search function on the app that didn't let me pull up sequencing. Good to know there's still an option to drop and rod, though I am partial to big amount of flame hits.

[Montford]

I cannot be negative about the new Codex. The Army is better than it was. Take that from an old First Sergeant

[Purifying Tempest]

Hand Flamer Serpahim + Cleansing Flame is some good hotness for Ebon Chalice for those who previously liked assassinating Seraphim.  Can even Deadly Descent them to double the fun since it happens in the Movement Phase and then again in the Shooting Phase.  3CP to max it out like that, but a healthy number of bolter+flamer shots mixed with up to 6 mortals is probably nothing most characters want any part of.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Purifying Tempest