elite bloat?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

i play 2 imperial armies, looking to expand, into a third in the nearish future, and while looking into SoB i noticed the same complaint in their sub forums that a lot people have in the marine player base...a bloated elites section. just checked my guard codex and the least elite faction the imperium has, gets 21 elite choices, and only 3 troops choices.

i imagine that this problem extends to admech, as well as xenos, and chaos armies.

can this problem be solved easily? jump pack units in elites moving to FA would help a bit, but i dont know how much it would help over all.

any ideas?

[Noserenda]

Is it really a problem? Id like to have lots of options with specialists tbh Guard is a great example because their Elites slot is all the weird and manifold elite or specialist branches or a hugely varied fighting force. Troops on the other hand tends to be a bit more limited because its the basic, well, troops of a faction and thats going to be a handful of options at most by design.

There are often some choices, especially in the marine dex that could shift slot but given 9ths mantra of changing things that exist purely because of tradition i suspect they already thought most of them over in some depth, see scouts moving to elites for example, so things are where GW wants them.

The biggest problem with the marine codex tbh is its three codexes in a big coat :D  

[Tyriks]

I think most of the issue I have is units like ancients getting removed from other units and turned into standalone models. If they took all the stuff like that and made it not take a slot if certain parameters are met I think it'd go a long way toward not feeling so hard to fit what you want.

[Guest Triszin]

I would say, that faction specific units are definitely elite bloated. It makes filling out detachments difficult

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Is it really a problem? Id like to have lots of options with specialists tbh Guard is a great example because their Elites slot is all the weird and manifold elite or specialist branches or a hugely varied fighting force. Troops on the other hand tends to be a bit more limited because its the basic, well, troops of a faction and thats going to be a handful of options at most by design.

 

There are often some choices, especially in the marine dex that could shift slot but given 9ths mantra of changing things that exist purely because of tradition i suspect they already thought most of them over in some depth, see scouts moving to elites for example, so things are where GW wants them.

 

The biggest problem with the marine codex tbh is its three codexes in a big coat :D

personally I think it is.

I think it would help for units like VV I be moved to FA slots for more flexibility in army building

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I don't know how GW decides force organization categories but they seem to not care at all about the bloat. For example, they moved Leviathan Dreadnoughts from HS to Elite. Even Scouts got put in Elite.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I don't know how GW decides force organization categories but they seem to not care at all about the bloat. For example, they moved Leviathan Dreadnoughts from HS to Elite. Even Scouts got put in Elite.

guard you have commissars, and JOs in the elite slot with tech priests, and servitors.

[Valkyrion]

I don't know how GW decides force organization categories but they seem to not care at all about the bloat. For example, they moved Leviathan Dreadnoughts from HS to Elite. Even Scouts got put in Elite.

 

Scouts got put into elites so that marine players can't MSU them for troops choices and begin preparations to phase them out in a codex or two's time. 

[Ishagu]

Nothing wrong with having the options.

 

The "bloat" simply means more variety for what you want your specific army to do.

[apologist]

The purpose of the slots is to create some form of restriction, so this seems more of a feature than a bug. If I want to field lots of (for example) ogryns, then I have to make sacrifices elsewhere; and probably can't take techpriests or psykers. If I really want to take all of those things, then I need to spend Command Points on another Detachment.

 

I think the 9th ed system seems to have got the balancing act of 'all the cool toys' versus 'typical lore-appropriate forces'. Unlike RT, you can't just take the bare minimum of troops and then half a dozen Terminator-armoured Inquisitors; and unlike the very restrictive 6th/7th system, you can take a very specialised army – you just have to pay CP through the nose. 

 

If you can't fit your army into the Detachment system of Matched Play, then Open Play might be more your thing? That allows for stuff that does exist in-universe (albeit vanishingly rarely), like all Death Company, or a pure Fire Dragon force, or a conclave of Inquisitors and their followers.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Didn't battalions go up to 6 elites from up to 3 with 9th edition? That gives more breathing room in the elite category at least.

[Warhead01]

i play 2 imperial armies, looking to expand, into a third in the nearish future, and while looking into SoB i noticed the same complaint in their sub forums that a lot people have in the marine player base...a bloated elites section. just checked my guard codex and the least elite faction the imperium has, gets 21 elite choices, and only 3 troops choices.

 

i imagine that this problem extends to admech, as well as xenos, and chaos armies.

 

can this problem be solved easily? jump pack units in elites moving to FA would help a bit, but i dont know how much it would help over all.

 

any ideas?

Any ideas? Yes. 

Stop using the Foc chart if what you want doesn't fit. Move to percentages. 2nd edition used percentages of points you were allowed to spend on different categorized Heroes, Squads Vehicles and Support.  The next thing you'll want after figuring out what moves to what category is a likeminded and fun opponent. This may not be a lifestyle change but give it a try. 

 

 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Didn't battalions go up to 6 elites from up to 3 with 9th edition? That gives more breathing room in the elite category at least.

Yeah battalions went up to 6 slots, and there also is an elite detachment. So you can have quite a few elites. I think to a degree the elite slot is meant to be how you individualize your army, so I think that's what bugs people cause they don't want multiple detachments to keep track of.

[Dr. Clock]

It certainly seems like the Elites category is now 'housing' at least three or four 'types' of units:

 

1) traditional 'heavy hitter' melee or mixed units (terminators, Incubi, Ogryns, Skorpekhs, Repentia, Corpuscarii, Aberrants)

 

2) 'sub-commanders' or buff characters / monsters that are 'not-quite HQs' (Ancients, Apothecaries, Judiciar, Canoptek reanimators or spyders, SoB  Dialogus / Hospitaller, oodles of GSC characters, )

 

3) Sneeky bois and infiltrators (Scouts, Ratlings, Ruststalkers, Striking Scorpions, Lictors, Stealth Suits, Kommandos etc.)

 

4) Walkers and monsters that 'aren't quite Heavy' (Dreadnoughts/Helbrutes, but also things like Maleceptor/Haruspex or even the Ghostkeel)

 

While increasing the number of slots for Elites has meant you can generally build something to include all or most of these categories, I think it could make good sense to 'break out' the walkers/monsters and/or characters to increase limitations in some arenas while creating new opportunities in others.

 

Mostly I feel like it's the 'officers' designation that could do with being moved to a new Role entirely, or simply making them 'no slot' selections accessed through other choices (e.g. you can take one 'Support Officer' (non-HQ) per Troop unit). At that point you'd likely be looking at reducing the Elites slots back to 3 in a Battalion, and then maybe adding an option for 'unlocking slots' in one other 'specialist area' for each Troops choice above 3. That would mean that you can go harder in one or more areas as long as you take the Troops to back them, but without needing to spend CP as well if you 'just want one more tank' or whatever. This would give you latitude to do a bit more theming without creating too much min/max potential from what I can see.

 

I also simply don't see why the 'specialist detachments' shouldn't benefit from the CP refund. Taking few Troops is a handicap already in most cases... and having only 2 Elites slots in an Outrider is also a pretty substantial limitation, for instance. CP is increasingly 'how you win the game' now, so the hard CP cost PLUS the other limitations make the specialist detachments pretty subpar since there's nothing much you can do to ameliorate it.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[ThePenitentOne]

It's true that the sisters Elites section is packed and looking to get more packed.

 

But it is really, really fun to tell someone you're bringing a Patrol and showing up with an army that Includes a Missionary, five sisters....

 

And 9 battle conclave units which all become slotless due to the missionary, attaching a Slotless Hereticus Inquisitor, and throwing in some Repentia with as many Slotless sisters superia as you want.

[MegaVolt87]

Elites have too many characters in it IMO. However its a nice honeypot/ trap to see character stacked lists on the opposing side, go ahead and take those 2 HQ and 3/4 elite characters instead of actual units at 2k points, where only really 0-2 elite characters are needed in reality. Even if they were slotless, wouldn't really change much. Elites are the second most popular choice after heavy support, there are a lot of sweet units in elites. Having it that stacked isn't a bad thing, especially with rule of three. 

[Warhead01]

Elites have too many characters in it IMO. However its a nice honeypot/ trap to see character stacked lists on the opposing side, go ahead and take those 2 HQ and 3/4 elite characters instead of actual units at 2k points, where only really 0-2 elite characters are needed in reality. Even if they were slotless, wouldn't really change much. Elites are the second most popular choice after heavy support, there are a lot of sweet units in elites. Having it that stacked isn't a bad thing, especially with rule of three. 

On the flip side maybe you want those character elites to help fill out a Brigade detachment so you can pack more points into another slot while hitting your minimums. 

I've built a list I am quite happy with doing just that. Just had to pay the taxes elite slot to put it on the table. 

[Noserenda]

Speaking in the broad sense (Because i immediately thought of a good few exceptions!) the FOC as originally devised was a marine battle company and that covered most of the slots except elites, which was units attached from typically the first company veterans. Obviously things like scouts, vehicles a third assault/devvy squad etc were also pulled from other companies but the Elites slot was odd for being purely attached units. Ish. :P 

Obviously that works less well for most other races, and has been wildly deviated from over time to make the game better in various ways but it does cover a lot of the same theoretical ground as well as being HQ overflow and certain units too good for other slots and the like.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

The purpose of the slots is to create some form of restriction, so this seems more of a feature than a bug. If I want to field lots of (for example) ogryns, then I have to make sacrifices elsewhere; and probably can't take techpriests or psykers. If I really want to take all of those things, then I need to spend Command Points on another Detachment.

 

I think the 9th ed system seems to have got the balancing act of 'all the cool toys' versus 'typical lore-appropriate forces'. Unlike RT, you can't just take the bare minimum of troops and then half a dozen Terminator-armoured Inquisitors; and unlike the very restrictive 6th/7th system, you can take a very specialised army – you just have to pay CP through the nose. 

 

If you can't fit your army into the Detachment system of Matched Play, then Open Play might be more your thing? That allows for stuff that does exist in-universe (albeit vanishingly rarely), like all Death Company, or a pure Fire Dragon force, or a conclave of Inquisitors and their followers.

 

This was very true for the old FOC's and especially for valuable FA/HS units, but I think even GW realizes they've been using Elites as a catch-all slot rather than putting, say, Vanguard Veterans in FA, because in 9E they doubled the Elites slot while keeping FA/HS the same. In almost every generic detachment, Elites have more slots than other categories and often are as high as Troops. The new attitude may be that Elites are like the new Troops and constitute the core of a faction's identity, but they aren't regular scorers like Troops except in armies like GK where Elite-like units such as Terminators will literally be reassigned to Troops slots.

 

That's just all speculation though who knows what GW is really thinking.

[Schlitzaf]

Um....this been a thing sense like 8th edition. I am pretty extra elite slots in detachments.

[Helias_Tancred]

Yep. Part of the bloat problem. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Elites have too many characters in it IMO. However its a nice honeypot/ trap to see character stacked lists on the opposing side, go ahead and take those 2 HQ and 3/4 elite characters instead of actual units at 2k points, where only really 0-2 elite characters are needed in reality. Even if they were slotless, wouldn't really change much. Elites are the second most popular choice after heavy support, there are a lot of sweet units in elites. Having it that stacked isn't a bad thing, especially with rule of three.

in 8th I ran a combat patrol and a vanguard detachment.

 

The vanguard detachment was a lord commissar, 3 commissars, and a T Prime to transport this little squad of enforcers lol

[Rik Lightstar]

For me the biggest problem that seems to be identified is the names of the FoC slot.

 

As has been mentioned above, when it started out as "Elites" that was what it represented, predominantly Veteran, Bodyguard or especially well equipped units with a few exceptions to these broad categories. Those exceptions still tended to tick one of those boxes to some extent.

 

Now it seems to have become the home for any units that don't really "belong" anywhere else. It would be better named as Auxiliaries and Attachments or similar for the actual units.

 

For the Characters that have migrated there I think they'd do better to move all Characters to the HQ bracket, double the number of available (and on bigger detachments the required) slots and then define certain Characters as taking multiple slots.

 

So with Marines as a good example, your Captains, Librarians and Chaplains would take 2 slots each, Lieutenants (who are 2-4-1 now anyway), Apothecaries, Techmarines, Champions, etc would all take a single slot. This would open these Characters up for leading your Patrol Detachments, but you'd then need  more low level leaders than higher level ones to lead your force.

 

Higher Tier Characters who still don't really qualify as a Lord of War Choice in themselves could even be dialled up to using 3 slots which would cut down on seeing too many of these guys in smaller games. A Patrol Detachment would give you 4 HQ slots, so if Dante and Mephiston take up 3 each, they're not going to be tag-teaming their way through a 500 point game by shoe horning them in.

 

Rik

[Xenith]

I think most of the issue I have is units like ancients getting removed from other units and turned into standalone models. If they took all the stuff like that and made it not take a slot if certain parameters are met I think it'd go a long way toward not feeling so hard to fit what you want.

 

This, really. 

 

For marines at least, the Command Squad went from one datasheet to 4 (company vets, apoc, ancient, champion, though remember these become slotless if combined in the right way), then you have the Primaris versions of these, then the multiple dreadnought entries. 

 

Personally, too much choice is better than 2 little. With the +3 elite options in a battallion compared to 7th, you can still take the same army. and have space for all the extra characters. 

[XeonDragon]

You make some really good points below. Maybe one option would be to create a new category: "elite troops" . I'd put categories 1 and 3 in that for sure. Maybe have a 2:1 or 3: rule, i.e. for every 2 troop units you can take 1 "elite troops" unit. I think categories 2 and 4 present different challenges. That said, I can see merit in categories 2 and 4 staying in the elite slot. 

 

 

It certainly seems like the Elites category is now 'housing' at least three or four 'types' of units:

 

1) traditional 'heavy hitter' melee or mixed units (terminators, Incubi, Ogryns, Skorpekhs, Repentia, Corpuscarii, Aberrants)

 

2) 'sub-commanders' or buff characters / monsters that are 'not-quite HQs' (Ancients, Apothecaries, Judiciar, Canoptek reanimators or spyders, SoB  Dialogus / Hospitaller, oodles of GSC characters, )

 

3) Sneeky bois and infiltrators (Scouts, Ratlings, Ruststalkers, Striking Scorpions, Lictors, Stealth Suits, Kommandos etc.)

 

4) Walkers and monsters that 'aren't quite Heavy' (Dreadnoughts/Helbrutes, but also things like Maleceptor/Haruspex or even the Ghostkeel)

 

While increasing the number of slots for Elites has meant you can generally build something to include all or most of these categories, I think it could make good sense to 'break out' the walkers/monsters and/or characters to increase limitations in some arenas while creating new opportunities in others.

 

Mostly I feel like it's the 'officers' designation that could do with being moved to a new Role entirely, or simply making them 'no slot' selections accessed through other choices (e.g. you can take one 'Support Officer' (non-HQ) per Troop unit). At that point you'd likely be looking at reducing the Elites slots back to 3 in a Battalion, and then maybe adding an option for 'unlocking slots' in one other 'specialist area' for each Troops choice above 3. That would mean that you can go harder in one or more areas as long as you take the Troops to back them, but without needing to spend CP as well if you 'just want one more tank' or whatever. This would give you latitude to do a bit more theming without creating too much min/max potential from what I can see.

 

I also simply don't see why the 'specialist detachments' shouldn't benefit from the CP refund. Taking few Troops is a handicap already in most cases... and having only 2 Elites slots in an Outrider is also a pretty substantial limitation, for instance. CP is increasingly 'how you win the game' now, so the hard CP cost PLUS the other limitations make the specialist detachments pretty subpar since there's nothing much you can do to ameliorate it.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Edited May 6, 2021 by XeonDragon