If Magnus Had Chosen to Fight

[Pearson73]

Hey folks, I've been wondering for a while what would have happened if Magnus had chosen to fight against the Emperor's censure, rather than accept it (as far as he did). It seems like even with the scrying powers of the Corvidae reduced, the orbital defenses unaware and major fleet and support elements of the legion sent away from Prospero, the Thousand Sons mauled the Wolves (and friends) pretty badly. I don't really want to consider the destruction of Russ' fleet en-route by that daemon (seems like cheating, plus we can't trust the neverborn), but would folk agree, that without Magnus' deliberate actions to minimise the conflict, Russ' host would have been defeated? What further ramifications would this have had?

[Marshal Loss]

Mutual annihilation. That was always Horus' goal: have two of the Emperor's most valuable pieces knock each other out of the game. There would be no real "winner".

[Hfran Morkai]

I agree with Marshal Loss.

 

It was meant to be the effective destruction of two Legions (as Horus knew he had no chance of turning Russ and didn't believe Magnus would ever side with him) and a host of Custodes and Sisters of Silence as well.

 

It would be a real meat grinder.

[Gorgoff]

And since the SW didn'T have any impact on the grand scheme of things whatsoever, it would have zero impact one way or the other.

It was just to emphazise that SW are "tHe bEsT oF tHe bEsT" and nothing more but they retconned this pretty much so that in the end we have a somewhat pointless battle.

Most stupid thing about the novel is that it didn't show the endfight between Russ and Magnus.

As a fan of both legions it still bugs me.

[Noserenda]

I suspect yeah, a complete blood bath, probably an exterminatus on Prospero and the Wolf remnants get destroyed by the Alpha Legion at Alaxxes knocking both legions out of the Heresy and possibly killing their Primarchs. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I don’t think there could ever be a hard and fast X would happen, given the destruction that took place once Magnus committed its safe to assume there would’ve been mutual annihilation as Marshal Loss said. The specifics aren’t going to be possible to nail down but when you compare two full strength legions going head to head, similar to the Thramas Crusade and the losses and brutality of a sector wide slugfest and condense it to single planet, its easy to see extremely high losses on both sides.

[Uberlord Gendo]

I think the biggest factor and biggest unknown is the Prospero orbital defense system. We have no real points of comparison for what bringing that down would entail. Thramas manages to hold out against the Night Lords a while and while the Night Lords aren't quite sane at that point, it's still humans vs astartes. Given Thramas is out in the middle of nowhere, well, you get the point. I mean look at what the Calth system managed to do when the Ultramarines got it back online.

With the Prosperine defense grid online and the fleets at battle stations, it's not legion vs legion anymore, it's a siege with void warfare. Mutual destruction is the probable result and certainly the one Horus and Chaos are pushing for, but without Chaos messing with the defenses the way Tzneetch screwed over the Sons during Prospero, the whole siege would take much longer even allowing for the Wolves to do something heroic and stupid like landing outside the shield zone and promptly running into psychnuein and Legio Xesteribiax.

And let's be honest, if the Thousand Sons go all out in a "take them down with us" kind of way, then both fleets are just gone. I'm not even talking warp core implosions and witchcraft, I mean phosphex and relics. Now that I'm thinking about it, the Battle of Prospero we got was pretty much the least insane one we could have gotten. The Siege of Prospero would have been mindbending, but then again, it would also have starred the fleets and not the legions and nobody wants to read about Russ sulking on his bridge with his wet leopard growls while the gunnery crews work out prearranged firing solutions for each attack run with contingencies for likely torpedo spreads from the Prosperine batteries.

[Gorgoff]

Thousand sons, ch 31; Prospero's lament - Russ & Magnus' fight makes up about half the chapter.

 

That being said, the novel Prospero Burns doesn't repeat the scene, and rather tells the tale of the burning from a different perspective.

I've read the book and can't remember that their final fight on Prospero is part of it. Aren't they only argue over the fleshchange?

[Pearson73]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone, I guess maybe I'd overhyped the Thousand Sons,as I was expecting them to come out on top (though it's reasonable to assume that they would've been hammered pretty badly). I don't think the void war would have been a fair fight, lining up the two legions in lines, etc, etc. Even without precision knowledge granted by their seers, the Sons could have mined the system's entry points pretty heavily and set up their fleet in ambush. There's a short story/novella in which a small group of Iron Hands use this tactic to great success, so there's no reason to think that it couldn't be successful here and cause great damage to the Imperial fleet whilst it's vulnerable immediately after translation into realspace. Moreover, the defences of Tizca could have been brought to full readiness and the Mechanicum allies could either have been broughgt into the city, or have a similar kine shield throne over their domain, allowing more of them to participate in the groundwar. There's no necessity for the Sons to 'win' in the void, or prevent planetfall either, every voidship or landing craft brought down is a few hundred less Wolves on the ground, and with a more immediate and prepared response, that could have made a big difference. 

 

I do agree more with what has been said about consequences on the wider war, however.

[Karhedron]

A more interesting question might be what would have happened if the 2 Legions had not fought at all?

 

Russ tried to persuade Magnus to surrender via Kasper Hawser but did not realise he was not Magnus's agent as he had supposed. Imagine if Russ had been able to make contact. Or if Magnus had actively sought out Russ and offered to surrender himself peacefully in exchange for his Legion's survival.

 

The Wolves might have returned to Terra and full strength and Magnus might have been able to sit on the Golden Throne, freeing up the Emperor to take a more active role during the Siege of Terra. At the very least it might have spared Malcador who might have been able to keep the Imperium in better shape over the ensuing millennia than the High Lords did as he understood the Emperor's plan better and could communicate with him psychically, even while the Emperor was stuck on the Throne.

[Pearson73]

@Karhedron  I agree, that is interesting. Do we think that the fifteenth legion would have accepted their lord's surrender and continued to fight on the side of the Imperium? If so, both they, and the Wolves, at full strength would have been powerful allies in the fight against Horus' forces. Alternatively, the Thousand Sons could have been thrown into the war in the webway, to undo the damage that their father had caused.

[Hfran Morkai]

Pretty sure the Censure fleet was also equipped with weapons for Exterminatus if it came to it, cyclonics? Maybe even life eater virus?

 

It's been a while since I've read the fluff though.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Hfran Morkai

[Noserenda]

Bear in mind the vast majority of Prospero's defence grid/fleet is a matter of record to the war council, the Talons and Wolves would know exactly what it entailed and bring a force appropriate to easily destroy it. Even with a few off book tricks or psychic shenanigans its not going to be a decisive factor. 

[No Foes Remain]

They also came with a sizable Solar Auxilia detachment who could have helped deal with them while the Rout made planetfall.

[Kizzdougs]

I think people are seriously underestimating the Thousand Sons and Magnus. It would definitely be a blood bath for both sides, but Magnus is easily the single most powerful Primarch, and the psychic abilities of his Legion would make them more than a match for the Censure Host. The only thing that could have stopped them would be if the Flesh Change really took off. 

[Varyn]

From my perspective Kizzdougs hits the nail on the head.

 

Magnus is described as being incredibly powerful, if he starts pushing his powers then he is capable of killing scores of marines with a single thought, let alone smashing drop pods, stormbirds and gunships out of the sky.

 

I am not saying that the wolves would be a push over, but I think there wouldn't be much left to retell the tale. I think the point they want to make is that Magnus isn't such a bad guy, he just made some bad choices and struggles with the consequences.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Varyn

[Hfran Morkai]

That was the point of Horus changing the orders, to try and basically wipe out two Legions which if Magnus hadn't redeployed his forces and had fought from the outset would have happened.

 

I'm a big fan of the Sixth but understand they would have been brought to the brink of destruction if not destroyed without Magnus' intervention.

[Pearson73]

I think people are seriously underestimating the Thousand Sons and Magnus. It would definitely be a blood bath for both sides, but Magnus is easily the single most powerful Primarch, and the psychic abilities of his Legion would make them more than a match for the Censure Host. The only thing that could have stopped them would be if the Flesh Change really took off. 

 

This was very much what I was thinking, advance warning and preparation would have allowed a 'normal' legion to fare much better, than when caught off guard. Magnus and his sons were far from 'normal'. I get the feeling that they really were incredibly powerful and gifted psykers, but made strong efforts to conceal this from the wider Imperium, with all limits removed, I think they could be nigh unstoppable. The flesh change is definitely an issue though.

[Noserenda]

If only the attackers brought a whole lot of troops that rendered all the Thousand Sons advantages completely irrelevant ;) 

Its always going to be bloody but to say it would be one sided because of Magnus' sorcery is doing the invaders a huge disservice.

[Kizzdougs]

If only the attackers brought a whole lot of troops that rendered all the Thousand Sons advantages completely irrelevant  

 

Its always going to be bloody but to say it would be one sided because of Magnus' sorcery is doing the invaders a huge disservice.

The Silent Sisters were a crucial part of the Censure Force and they're immune to psychic powers that would directly affect them and they disrupt the abilities of psykers when in close proximity, but they can't stop a Telekine from dropping a huge building on top of them as they advance or from tearing their drop ships from the sky. They limit the Thousand Sons' power in individual engagements, but overall the Sons would still have a huge advantage due to their sorcery.

 

The Space Wolves suffered a huge number of casualties (I think it was something like 33%) and this was against a Legion that sent away its fleet, deactivated their orbital defences, didn't mobilise Spireguard and Legion forces until the last moment, and was only joined by their Primarch when the battle was already lost... I think things would have gone very badly for the Censure Host if Magnus and his Legion had actually resisted from the outset.

[Billy the Squid]

 

If only the attackers brought a whole lot of troops that rendered all the Thousand Sons advantages completely irrelevant  

 

Its always going to be bloody but to say it would be one sided because of Magnus' sorcery is doing the invaders a huge disservice.

The Silent Sisters were a crucial part of the Censure Force and they're immune to psychic powers that would directly affect them and they disrupt the abilities of psykers when in close proximity, but they can't stop a Telekine from dropping a huge building on top of them as they advance or from tearing their drop ships from the sky. They limit the Thousand Sons' power in individual engagements, but overall the Sons would still have a huge advantage due to their sorcery.

 

The Space Wolves suffered a huge number of casualties (I think it was something like 33%) and this was against a Legion that sent away its fleet, deactivated their orbital defences, didn't mobilise Spireguard and Legion forces until the last moment, and was only joined by their Primarch when the battle was already lost... I think things would have gone very badly for the Censure Host if Magnus and his Legion had actually resisted from the outset.

 

 

Also the Sisters have their limits, a powerful enough psyker can simply brute force their way through the null maidens abilities, we already know that Big E is unaffected by the presence of the null maidens, the same is almost certainly true for Magnus. Even in force I doubt they'd be able to hold back Magnus's full power. 

 

The Thousand Sons also quickly realised the Silent Sisters were weakening their powers and made a point to eliminate them with extreme prejudice, regardless of their abilities the Sisters are still only human, after all Boltgun shells and other Astartes weaponry tends to make a horrendous mess of the human body very easily.

 

For all of the derision other legions heaped on the Thousand Sons, they were still super human warriors, even without their psychic powers. 

[Mogsam]

I agree with Kizzdougs, Magnus does his best to make the Thousand Sons weak and they still so a number on a significant amount of wolves. They don't have a fleet, they don't use their defences and they're unsupported by their Primarch for most of the fight.

 

Magnus is rightfully feared by the chaos gods and his counterparts. The TSons unleashed are extremely powerful and sisters of silence don't really matter when the ships are being destroyed etc.

[Xenith]

Magnus was the most powerful, and Russ the only one to follow orders to the letter without thinking. 

 

Horus sends Russ to kill Magnus. What are the outcomes?

 

1) Magnus doesn't fight, and is killed, taking him out of the heresy, while effectively crippling the SW, removing 2 loyal legions in his way.

2) Magnus does fight, the Wolves are wiped, and the TS are declared traitors and have to side with Horus. Loyalists lose 2 legions and traitors gain one.

 

I think what actually happened, both legions getting crippled then Magnus BAMF'ing the TS to the warp and becoming a darmon prince, probably wasn't something that Horus contemplated, but worked out in his favour, being part of 1 and part of 2 above. 

 

For what it's worth, I think the Wolves would absolutely been annihilated. The SW can only beat the World Eaters as they're more disciplined and work together, stuff the TS already have in spades. If Magnus hadn't blocked their prescience, they'd have been forewarned and forearmed. 

 

As someone mentions above, Null maidens might be able to ignore that smite, but they can't ignore that tank you throw at them. 

[Scammel]

I think it might be a mistake to think of it as a one-off, finite engagement if Magnus does commit to the fight, with the Wolves and Talons simply running headlong into a psychic gauntlet where Magnus and the Sons can disrupt fleet movements and scatter landing troops to be picked off by defence batteries and regular troops (it's worth noting that Magnus isn't so powerful that moving a ship in orbit is an easy feat, and meaningful military application of this power likely requires concerted effort from many of the legion's luminaries).

 

I think you could well end up with a situation like Calth - after a fairly one-sided initial engagement I imagine the Imperials would exercise greater caution and settle in for a longer campaign as opposed to a single decapitating strike. Fleet elements blockading the planet, successful landing zones becoming fortified and more resource from the wider Imperium streaming in, with the intention of bleeding the Sons dry. Magnus can't win a prolonged fight, but he could definitely massacre any initial foray and take out at least another legion's worth of Astartes over several months.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Scammel

[MegaVolt87]

I suspect yeah, a complete blood bath, probably an exterminatus on Prospero and the Wolf remnants get destroyed by the Alpha Legion at Alaxxes knocking both legions out of the Heresy and possibly killing their Primarchs. 

 

That kind of result is probably why AL were put there in the first place to finish the job because that was the intended result from Horus's planning.