Etiquette Query: Incorrect # of dice?

[War Angel]

So here’s a scenario. Player rolls to hit, then picks up successful hits, rolls to wound. Realizes he’s rolled too many dice, picks them all up and starts again with the correct number. But now, he’s ended up with more wounds the second time.

Is there any official rules for this aside from “don’t roll the wrong number the first time?” (Obviously this is with speed rolling) what would a TO say? Do you just lose the attacks all together?

Or how do you play it?

Edited May 7, 2021 by Xenith
Tweaked title to elucidate topic

[Rogue]

Not a TO, just friendly gaming. I've played it that you take out successes to bring the numbers down to what that should be.

 

For example, I roll twelve dice needing 3s to hit, and score 8 hits, 4 misses. I realise that I should only have rolled ten dice. I keep my 4 misses, and 6 of the hits.

 

It means I sort of lose out, but then I should never have had the 8 hits in the first place, and it reminds me to count better next time.

[Dam13n]

If I were the one who had rolled the dice, I would point out my mistake and ask my opponent how they would like to resolve it.

 

That could result in me starting the attack sequence from the beginning, rolling the correct number of dice, which could result in more hits/wounds.

 

It could also result in removing dice from the pool previously rolled. Either as suggested above, or utilising math-hammer to decide on which results are removed*.

 

* e.g. If 2 additional hit dice rolled, with a 4+ needed to hit, you could justify removing 1 hit and 1 miss result. This could be seen as the most fair way to resolve the issue in this case.

 

In any case, I think deferring the decision to the person who's unit is being attacked should remove the possibility of them feeling hard done by if they request a re-roll and result is worse for them. As in that eventuality, they gambled and lost.

[Cheex]

There's no rule for it, so how you resolve it is up to you and your opponent.

 

The most common solutions I've seen have been:

1. Disregard the roll entirely, regardless of outcome, and do it again. This is the solution that makes most sense to me - it's statistically no different to rolling correctly the first time. It only leads to sour grapes when the second roll (even with fewer dice) is 'better' than the second roll.
2. Remove dice from the roll until you get to the right number of dice. This is usually done by either removing successes, or randomising which dice you roll - for example, if you roll 3 dice instead of 2, roll another D3 to determine which die to remove.

These solutions make more sense than simply 'losing' the roll, IMHO.

[Naryn]

Tournament setting i'd want full reroll, but casual gaming group play we usually remove in order one success, one failure, one success.... etc until the correct number of dice are reached. We started this back in OG Necromunda days because it seemed like the most equitable solution, and it stuck.

[War Angel]

I should probably better describe what happened, it was a few weeks ago so I didn’t really think about the details properly.

 

Shot, hit a few times, rolled wounds, picks up the dice and tells me the wounds before I can remind him (he’s already shot at them earlier) that I had used transhuman phisioligy on the unit, and he was picking up 2’s and 3’s. Well because he grabbed them too quickly he didn’t count the dice, so he decides to start re rolling. I went from taking 4 wounds to more (as an example, I don’t actually remember this at this point)

 

So it really felt like a cheap shot, because it went from me suffering X wounds when he ignored my strat, to suffering X+ when he “did it right”.

[Dam13n]

Considering the replies you've received this far, which largely lean towards the correct procedure for rectifying that mistake in that scenario should have been decided by you, the player who did not make the mistake.

 

Added to the fact that there is no official rule that can resolve this, as it's an etiquette issue, rather than a rules issue.

 

I'm not sure this thread is going to be able to provide a clear answer that will resolve your problem.

 

I think that it's also worth pointing out that this shouldn't be a thread to vent about feeling hard done by, even though it seems like that would be an entirely reasonable response.

 

So I would offer the simple suggestion, that coming to an agreement with your opponent before the game how mistakes will be rectified, is probably the best way to ensure that you avoid these sort of scenarios in future.

[Cheex]

I should probably better describe what happened, it was a few weeks ago so I didn’t really think about the details properly.

 

Shot, hit a few times, rolled wounds, picks up the dice and tells me the wounds before I can remind him (he’s already shot at them earlier) that I had used transhuman phisioligy on the unit, and he was picking up 2’s and 3’s. Well because he grabbed them too quickly he didn’t count the dice, so he decides to start re rolling. I went from taking 4 wounds to more (as an example, I don’t actually remember this at this point)

 

So it really felt like a cheap shot, because it went from me suffering X wounds when he ignored my strat, to suffering X+ when he “did it right”.

 

You didn't "go from" anything - the incorrect roll meant nothing to begin with.

 

It's like if a player drops their dice on the ground. A common house rule is that if it's not on the table, it doesn't count - it is disregarded in exactly the same way, even if it produced a clear result.

 

Some people also play that if a die does not land perfectly flat on the table then it doesn't count. Even if it's obvious what the die "should" be, by this house rule it doesn't count and is likewise disregarded.

 

I don't see any of those situations being any different.

[Marshal Rohr]

Roll a second time with the correct number, the worst result of the two times is applied. First time is less damaging, but has the wrong number - first gets applied.

[Rik Lightstar]

I'd say the fairest solution when there are too many dice is to redo the roll from the start, the outcome could go either way but nothing that couldn't have happened from the outset.

 

If there are too few dice it's obviously easier to rectify by just rolling those that are missing.

 

As an aside, but related, when I'm rolling I tend to move my failed dice to one side but keeping the facing where possible. I think wherever possible the right etiquette is to move the failed rolls from the pool and show your opponent the successes, then they can verify. Then you pick up the successes to roll the next stage.

 

Rik

[Bryan Blaire]

If we hadn’t already decided (or had a standing decision, if it was friends/a regular opponent-club mate), then the best thing would probably have been to start the entire attack sequence over again from the beginning at the To-Hit roll IMO.

 

Otherwise Naryn’s solution of removing the proper number of dice, starting with a success, then a failure, back and forth until the proper number of dice are remaining seems the next best to me for a friendly game.

[Marshal Rohr]

Alternative if you rolled too many, subtract successes from the pool until the right number is reached.

[Valkyrion]

Why did he pick the dice up? After rolling to wound it's your turn to roll for your saves, no? The dice that have scored wounds should be visible so you know how many saves to make.

 

I could see this happening with a to hit roll where Player A thinks he hits on 3's, but really it's 4's, and he rolls to wound using the 3's, because the sequence allows for that - Player A rolls twice before player B rolls once.

 

As an aside, but related, when I'm rolling I tend to move my failed dice to one side but keeping the facing where possible. I think wherever possible the right etiquette is to move the failed rolls from the pool and show your opponent the successes, then they can verify. Then you pick up the successes to roll the next stage.

 

 

By Rik Lightstar is the correct etiquette in my opinion and how I have always played it and expected it to be played. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Valkyrion

[Captain Idaho]

This is actually one of those things folk need to discuss before the game. A "what if this happens?" scenario.

 

Good housekeeping. Like with cocked dice or dropped dice. If you both agree before the game starts there's no problems. :)

[Mr4Minutes]

I’m in the reroll it all again from the beginning, provided no save rolls or wounds have been taken. It’s quicker that way I find.

 

Yes there’s a chance more success are rolled, but there’s also a chance more failures are rolled. It all balances out in the end.

[chapter master 454]

3 options:

 

Restart the entire attack sequence.

This could be considered a fairly heavy handed approach but by all accounts the roll was made invalid by incorrect rolling and thus it cannot ever be correctly adjusted to what it should of been. This does come with pros and cons but ultimately it is as fair as it can get.

 

Remove dice from the result.

This has two variants, thus the final 2 options. First is as mentioned just remove die going Success, Failure, Success, Failure regardless of chance. The other option is to remove dice based on the success rate. For example, a 66% success rate roll would thus remove 1 success and 2 failures (likely starting with failure, success then failure).

 

It can be tough though. As with all things that happen in game, balancing fairness can be tough when you yourself have a personal stake in the outcome so it can end up being awkward when you may need to argue for yourself despite the conflict of interest (even if you are right). Again, talk it out and ultimately it can be a test of character for both players. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I always opt for a complete reroll. It’s simple and quick.

[Tipper]

Also worth mentioning, whichever of the excellent above suggestions is taken, it’s a good idea to discuss it with the opponent before it comes up.

 

I like the idea of alternating positives and negatives, but it’s probably sounds different if it’s in certain context. Like, if 1 less wound is gonna keep my warlord alive, saying “That’s cool, just pull a wound off and we’ll keep going.” Sounds really suspicious. Where as if discussed beforehand, it is probably totally agreeable.

[Xenith]

What would you do if you accidentally picked up some dice that you shoudn't have?

 

Your opponent actually did what is pretty standard - if you bodge the dice roll, you re-roll them. That they rerolled implied you didnt object vocally and let them do it? Normaly it would go "They have transhuman so you wound on a 4+, but it's ok".

 

If you were happy with the amount of wounds the opponent scored, then don't mention it, despite them rolling more dice than they should have. 

 

When you pointed out they rolled too many, they did the correct thing and rerolled all - the outcome being random and unpredictable.

 

From what you present, it seems you were ok with the idea of them re-rolling them all at the time, but you're now unhappy with the result as it wasn't in your favour.

 

Dice are random, and you're getting worked up about one anecdotal datapoint where the reroll came out in the opponent's favour. It could have easily gone the other way. Best to forget it and move on. 

[War Angel]

Added to the fact that there is no official rule that can resolve this, as it's an etiquette issue, rather than a rules issue.

I'm not sure this thread is going to be able to provide a clear answer that will resolve your problem.I think that it's also worth pointing out that this shouldn't be a thread to vent about feeling hard done by, even though it seems like that would be an entirely reasonable response.

Well that turned out to be incorrect, as all of these responses are great and very helpful.

 

From what you present, it seems you were ok with the idea of them re-rolling them all at the time, but you're now unhappy with the result as it wasn't in your favour.

 

Dice are random, and you're getting worked up about one anecdotal datapoint where the reroll came out in the opponent's favour. It could have easily gone the other way. Best to forget it and move on.

 

Actually, I never suggested him to reroll the dice, he just did it. I think that’s what the issue is. A common theme has been to discuss things before the game, and while it would be impossible to predict everything that could happen in the next 2 hours, a discussion didn’t happen at the time. I pointed out that he picked up dice he shouldn’t have in his count, and would have been fine with him removing a dice or two from the wounds total, not a full reroll.

 

So yeah, discussing it ahead of time is the common theme here.could also be some value to discussing it when it happens should it be an uncommon situation.

[Brother Tyler]

Discussing possible resolutions to issues before a game in order to have a predetermined course of action isn't a bad idea. The challenge, though, is that you're not likely to come up with every possible problem that might happen. Alternately, if you try to develop a resolution for every possible little thing that might go wrong things might get way too complicated and legalistic, taking some of the fun out of the gaming experience. What you might do is develop a ledger of issues and how to resolve them, starting with some low hanging fruit and then adding to it as other situations arise in games.

 

For the most part, though, coming up with a reasonable solution when the situation arises should be satisfactory. A number of reasonable solutions have been presented here so far:

• Remove extra dice starting with successes
• Remove extra dice starting with failures
• Remove extra dice alternating between successes and failures
• Re-roll and go with the new result
• Remove extra dice starting with a 6, then a 5, and so on (going back to 6 once you've removed a 1)
• As above, but start with 1, then 2, and so on
• As above, but start with 1, then 6, then 2, then 5, then 3, then 4, repeat as necessary
• something else?

No matter which option you choose, there is potential for someone to be unhappy. Each of these options is fair in its own way.

 

Ultimately, if rolling extra dice was an honest mistake, it's best to just find something agreeable and then move on from there.