My Thoughts on Female Space Marines

[Halandaar]

I honestly don't think that the concept of 'brotherhood' to an Astartes would be gender limited. Brotherhood may be a gender specific term, but it is an entirely gender neutral concept, based on shared beliefs, training and experiences. One marine wouldn't care if the marine standing next to them was male or female, as long as they had passed all of the same tests, had the right abilities and followed the same chapter cult. A male Space Wolf would have more in common with a female Wolf than a male Dark Angel.

 

Agreed, feels like a matter of terminology. The concept of "brotherhood" within Astartes units is functionally no different from the concept of camaraderie in modern day military, which does not immediately collapse among mixed-gender units.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'm absolutely, 100% in favour of the idea. It's easy to write in thanks to what happened with Primaris, regardless of what the lore said before, it can be easily rewritten, that Cawl discovered it anew, or that one of the Lost Legions was in fact female all along.

A lot of the arguments against needing more representation are very simplistic, and miss the point entirely. Saying that women are 'catered for' with the sororitas or Guard misses the point.

Let's look at it through another lens. Imagine a world where the Sororitas are the main faction. They've been around forever and have the sort of range that the Space Marines have. They also have the freedom or creativity that Space Marines have. Sororitas with robes and skirts are just one of the sub-factions. Others exist which are not religioua at all, there are Amazonian styled orders, A Scythian styled order, as well as a basic model type with no ornamentation which can act as a blank canvas for anything your heart desires. There are few fluff restrictions on what an order can be, and almost anything goes.

Then, someone comes along and goes, can I have a male order? An order of my own, where all of the models are male? And the answer was simply yes, you can play Space Marines.

Except, in this world, Space Marines all HAVE to worship the Emperor as zealously as the Black Templars, and every single model is fully robed and hooded like a Dark Angel Veteran. No other models exist, you can choose your colours, but any other model customisation requires intensive resculpting or 3rd party models. Creative freedom is limited fluff wise as they all Ultramarine successors, and there are no exceptions within that lore which don't attract a wave of "Well Akchually" comments.

Representation sorted right?

Perhaps the only for-argument I've heard so far in this thread that has some actual merit to it.

 

At the heart of it lies the limitations of the sisters range, as a very specific restricted template, while a generic marine is like a blank canvas by comparison that can be filled with anything. Fair enough.

 

If this is the true heart of the matter though, couldn't the issue be equally solved by diversifying the sisters range?

[Valkyrion]

If it's the table top statlines and special rules that are the most important aspect to this discussion then put female heads on your models and be done with it. No one care about yourdudes more than you and if someone doesn't like yourdudes then that's their own failing.

 

But wanting a company, the makers of a vast IP and decades long story, to change something that would affect everyone simply because it's what you want is extreme selfishness. 

 

Irony, I suppose. Trying to make inclusivity exclusive. 

[Jings]

 

I'm absolutely, 100% in favour of the idea. It's easy to write in thanks to what happened with Primaris, regardless of what the lore said before, it can be easily rewritten, that Cawl discovered it anew, or that one of the Lost Legions was in fact female all along.

A lot of the arguments against needing more representation are very simplistic, and miss the point entirely. Saying that women are 'catered for' with the sororitas or Guard misses the point.

Let's look at it through another lens. Imagine a world where the Sororitas are the main faction. They've been around forever and have the sort of range that the Space Marines have. They also have the freedom or creativity that Space Marines have. Sororitas with robes and skirts are just one of the sub-factions. Others exist which are not religioua at all, there are Amazonian styled orders, A Scythian styled order, as well as a basic model type with no ornamentation which can act as a blank canvas for anything your heart desires. There are few fluff restrictions on what an order can be, and almost anything goes.

Then, someone comes along and goes, can I have a male order? An order of my own, where all of the models are male? And the answer was simply yes, you can play Space Marines.

Except, in this world, Space Marines all HAVE to worship the Emperor as zealously as the Black Templars, and every single model is fully robed and hooded like a Dark Angel Veteran. No other models exist, you can choose your colours, but any other model customisation requires intensive resculpting or 3rd party models. Creative freedom is limited fluff wise as they all Ultramarine successors, and there are no exceptions within that lore which don't attract a wave of "Well Akchually" comments.

Representation sorted right?

Perhaps the only for-argument I've heard so far in this thread that has some actual merit to it.

 

At the heart of it lies the limitations of the sisters range, as a very specific restricted template, while a generic marine is like a blank canvas by comparison that can be filled with anything. Fair enough.

 

If this is the true heart of the matter though, couldn't the issue be equally solved by diversifying the sisters range?

What, the limited Sisters range thats getting its second expansion in so many years that has been enjoying increasing releases and marketing exposure since 9th dropped?

 

Wanting a fundental lore change because the recently updated and soon to be expanded Sororitas range isn't exactly as expansive as the never not updated Space Marine range is mental - especially given it has twice as many options as the next biggest faction with room to spare.

 

Because more a Marine releases are what the game needs rn. Introducing the new Space Marine Mk XXX "Booby" armour!

Edited May 11, 2021 by Jings

[Halandaar]

But wanting a company, the makers of a vast IP and decades long story, to change something that would affect everyone simply because it's what you want is extreme selfishness. 

 

Is that more or less selfish than not wanting said company to make changes to it's own IP because you don't personally like those changes? Don't try to pretend one position is morally superior to the other, because it is not. 

[Valkyrion]

Of course it's more selfish. I wish to maintain the status quo, play the game by the rules the company intended. You're wanting to change the game for everybody, whether they want it or not.

 

I could better understand a movement towards female space marines if games workshop had outright stated that women shouldn't play the game, or the fictional factions displayed hatred and contempt for women in the lore but they don't. No one in 40k cares that any other person is anything at all. There is no benefit to changing the lore for everyone so that a few people can put female heads on plastic shoulders to stop yet fewer people from saying 'well actually' to them. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

I honestly don't think that the concept of 'brotherhood' to an Astartes would be gender limited. Brotherhood may be a gender specific term, but it is an entirely gender neutral concept, based on shared beliefs, training and experiences. One marine wouldn't care if the marine standing next to them was male or female, as long as they had passed all of the same tests, had the right abilities and followed the same chapter cult. A male Space Wolf would have more in common with a female Wolf than a male Dark Angel.

Agreed, feels like a matter of terminology. The concept of "brotherhood" within Astartes units is functionally no different from the concept of camaraderie in modern day military, which does not immediately collapse among mixed-gender units.

LOL. Having served my entire decade-long military career in mixed gender units, I can assure you that you are *wrong.* Mixed gender commands have hideous issues caused by...you know...having mixed genders.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

That's not been the experience in my own military career. In ours, the issues with camaraderie are not caused by gender, just idiots.

[Noserenda]

Most of those issues are a lot less relevant when you remove the whole sex issue though, which space marines do ;)

I can confirm having been fighting in mixed groups for years that camaraderie absolutely does work regardless of gender.

[Marshal Reinhard]

What, the limited Sisters range thats getting its second expansion in so many years that has been enjoying increasing releases and marketing exposure since 9th dropped?

Yes? Mind, in my view the current sisters range is perfect. But they are pretty much only in the gothic space nun flavor. There are no space valkyries, amazons etc, hence why I think that particular argument holds merit.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Most of those issues are a lot less relevant when you remove the whole sex issue though, which space marines do

 

I can confirm having been fighting in mixed groups for years that camaraderie absolutely does work regardless of gender.

 

Exactly, even if the units were mixed gender, there would be no problems because the likely issues that could cause friction between genders in close confines don't apply to asexual, hypnoindoctrinated superhumans. For Space Marines, it would be a non-issue.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Halandaar]

Of course it's more selfish. I wish to maintain the status quo, play the game by the rules the company intended. You're wanting to change the game for everybody, whether they want it or not.

 

First off, at no point in this discussion have I said I actively want this change to happen. I have said I can't understand the vehemence of opposition to it. Feel free to go back and check, and then cease putting words in my mouth. Thanks.

 

Secondly, nobody here is advocating for the rules, or the game to change. You attempting to use that as a line of criticism is, at best, completely disingenuous. 

 

Finally, to suggest that people who are in favour of female Astartes want to change things for "everyone" is simply incorrect; they want to change things for themselves. Has the shattering of Biel-Tan changed people's Eldar armies? No. Has the destruction of regiments on Cadia rendered some collections unusable? No. Updates to the lore that manifest only within that lore change things only for the people who specifically opt in. The hypothetical existence of female Astartes does not force you, or anyone else, to change anything about your existing collections if you don't wish to. It doesn't automatically render up to 50% of your marines female; you don't even have to acknowledge it within your own hobby. It affects you in literally no way at all. 

 

This, ultimately, is why I find such staunch resistance galling. You are attempting to deny change that would be positive for some people despite that change having no impact on you whatsoever, and your entire argument for doing so is "because that's how the company intended". An argument which very obviously would cease to exist if GW amended the lore, which is the whole subject of this discussion.

 

LOL. Having served my entire decade-long military career in mixed gender units, I can assure you that you are *wrong.* Mixed gender commands have hideous issues caused by...you know...having mixed genders.

 

Issues, sure. Interpersonal conflict, fine. Lack of camaraderie? You're telling me that in a combat situation you aren't all pulling together because some of you have boobs and others don't? If so that's a pretty sad state of affairs.

 

Anyway, I suppose you and your colleagues hadn't had your base functions stripped out of you and weren't subject to extensive psycho-indoctrination prior to your service in the way that Astartes are, so there's still not a huge amount of relevance to the comparison.

[BitsHammer]

 

I'm absolutely, 100% in favour of the idea. It's easy to write in thanks to what happened with Primaris, regardless of what the lore said before, it can be easily rewritten, that Cawl discovered it anew, or that one of the Lost Legions was in fact female all along.

A lot of the arguments against needing more representation are very simplistic, and miss the point entirely. Saying that women are 'catered for' with the sororitas or Guard misses the point.

Let's look at it through another lens. Imagine a world where the Sororitas are the main faction. They've been around forever and have the sort of range that the Space Marines have. They also have the freedom or creativity that Space Marines have. Sororitas with robes and skirts are just one of the sub-factions. Others exist which are not religioua at all, there are Amazonian styled orders, A Scythian styled order, as well as a basic model type with no ornamentation which can act as a blank canvas for anything your heart desires. There are few fluff restrictions on what an order can be, and almost anything goes.

Then, someone comes along and goes, can I have a male order? An order of my own, where all of the models are male? And the answer was simply yes, you can play Space Marines.

Except, in this world, Space Marines all HAVE to worship the Emperor as zealously as the Black Templars, and every single model is fully robed and hooded like a Dark Angel Veteran. No other models exist, you can choose your colours, but any other model customisation requires intensive resculpting or 3rd party models. Creative freedom is limited fluff wise as they all Ultramarine successors, and there are no exceptions within that lore which don't attract a wave of "Well Akchually" comments.

Representation sorted right?

Perhaps the only for-argument I've heard so far in this thread that has some actual merit to it.

 

At the heart of it lies the limitations of the sisters range, as a very specific restricted template, while a generic marine is like a blank canvas by comparison that can be filled with anything. Fair enough.

 

If this is the true heart of the matter though, couldn't the issue be equally solved by diversifying the sisters range?

 

How diverse can you make the Sisters before you're basically making female Space Marines?

[Jings]

 

What, the limited Sisters range thats getting its second expansion in so many years that has been enjoying increasing releases and marketing exposure since 9th dropped?

Yes? Mind, in my view the current sisters range is perfect. But they are pretty much only in the gothic space nun flavor. There are no space valkyries, amazons etc, hence why I think that particular argument holds merit.

 

 

My point was less that there isn't a lack of variety, rather they've been flatly ignored for the past twenty years and are only now seeing their range updated. Expanding the factions within is a relatively recent trend, and Sisters will likely get their turn once their range has finished updating. Chaos and Orks are a good example of this in action right now - Chaos Marines were just Chaos Marines (albeit with some old upgrade kits) until the Thousand Sons and Death Guard releases fleshed out some of the less-standard Chaos forces. Ditto Orks were just Orks for years, but now we have Speed Freakz and the new Beast Snaggas coming out. Even Space Marines only really started seeing GW model support for non-Big 4 Chapters around Psychic Awakening. 

 

I don't see the issue with them being just "space nuns" though, in the same way it's not much of an issue that the different Space Marine Chapters are variations of their base "space knight" aesthetic. Sisters already have a decent range of internal aesthetics. Standard Sisters are nuns with guns, the Seraphim and their ilk are much like the Valkyries you mentioned, and the Repentia are, well... They're kinda their own thing which is pretty great. Once fluff for Sisters starts expanding, I'm sure we'll start seeing more flavours of Sororitas, though they won't waver much from their core theme. 

 

I'm just saying to give it time. The writing is on the walls that GW are pushing for multimedia projects, and there are plenty signs indicating they're aiming to push the Sisters into the limelight alongside Astartes as their female representation which, imo, is the best overall course of action. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I only have a couple of concerns with them adding female astartes:

 

1) When they're added in the timeline. Alot of the older lore wouldn't feel right if they tried to pull a "but they've always been there". I think making it as current as possible would be key. I'll admit some selfishness here but I've invested in alot of books lol.

 

2) this change is based on our values, so if its changed do they need to look at other problematic issues with the setting? 40k is a crappy horrible place to be.

 

Personally I'd prefer it if they added female custodes, it makes more sense in my opinion. Less lore to mess with, and they are supposed to be the best of the modified people.

I only have a couple of concerns with them adding female astartes:

 

1) When they're added in the timeline. Alot of the older lore wouldn't feel right if they tried to pull a "but they've always been there". I think making it as current as possible would be key. I'll admit some selfishness here but I've invested in alot of books lol.

 

2) this change is based on our values, so if its changed do they need to look at other problematic issues with the setting? 40k is a crappy horrible place to be.

 

Personally I'd prefer it if they added female custodes, it makes more sense in my opinion. Less lore to mess with, and they are supposed to be the best of the modified people.

[Brother Tyler]

I think that it’s time to put this to bed for now, ending the discussion on a (hopefully) reasonable note. We have mostly avoided going into problematic areas, carrying out a relatively reasonable discussion about an issue that is contentious and controversial (and which has led to any number of flame wars here and elsewhere in the past). We have pretty much covered the scope of the topic and have simply begun repeating arguments that have been given before (sometimes using different examples, but repetitious arguments nonetheless).

As we’ve seen, there are some very strong feelings on the issue.

On the one hand, those that are opposed to female Adeptus Astartes point to deliberate lore that was embedded in the faction over 30 years ago. Though the explicit male-only verbiage has disappeared in recent years, the representation of the Adeptus Astartes as exclusively male in composition has remained consistent and it is a fundamental element of the faction (just as the Adepta Sororitas are strictly females). Some within that camp cite additional reasons for opposing the inclusion of females in the Adeptus Astartes, but all agree that the lore is clear.

On the other hand, lore can change and evolve. The majority of significant lore changes took place during the 1st edition of the game and in the transition to 2nd edition. There have been other lore changes (retcons, not progressions) throughout the years, but most of these have been in relatively minor areas. A recent example is the 3rd edition lore for the founding of the Exorcists apparently being adjusted in the 9th edition Index Astartes article for the Chapter (if you’re a fan of the Exorcists you might consider that a major change, but in the grand scheme of things, it was a relatively minor change). In addition, Games Workshop has shown with the Era Indomitus that the lore can include progression. The most significant lore progression, and the one that has the most potential to be relevant here, is that of the introduction of the Primaris Adeptus Astartes. If Games Workshop ever decides to introduce females into the ranks of the Adeptus Astarte they’ll most likely use either the Primaris or something similar as a rationale for that change. While some hobbyists are a bit cavalier about a simple retcon, thinking that the lore can just be rewritten (i.e., removing the male-only verbiage from the lore without some other rationale), that would likely disenfranchise some segment of the hobby community (just as not changing the lore might disenfranchise some other segment of the hobby community.

The main question to wonder about, however, is should Games Workshop implement such a change in the lore? Are there tangible benefits to such a change? Do those benefits outweigh the potential risks?

Each of us can speak only for ourselves. We can’t even speak for others with whom we might share similar categorizations or experiences. For example, while some members of our community with military experience might fall into one camp, others with military experience might fall into the other camp. This can similarly be applied to some males feeling one way and others feeling the other way, likewise for females, etc.

It’s very easy to look at an opposing viewpoint and to misinterpret it, (over)simplify it, or otherwise misrepresent it. Everyone has to understand, however, that there are valid points all around.

Ultimately, this issue is not for us to decide. This is an issue for Games Workshop to decide. Should they decide to introduce females into the Adeptus Astartes, one hopes that they do it with a decent explanation and appropriate execution. There will no doubt be some fallout from what would clearly be a major reversal to clear and established lore. Conversely, not implementing such a change presents its own risks. The majority of hobbyists are able to accept the current restriction, and a similar but not identical majority would be able to accept the introduction of females into the Adeptus Astartes. With either alternative, however, there is a small segment of the hobby community whose strong feelings (would) translate into tangible action (i.e., players that refuse to play Adeptus Astartes because there are no females and players that would refuse to play Adeptus Astartes if females were introduced). It’s easy to disregard strong feelings that are in opposition to our own (i.e., supporters of the status quo saying that those that want females can just do head swaps and call it a day, or supporters of females saying that those that don’t want them simply don’t have to include them in their army if the lore changes), but that's not necessarily fair or considerate. Yes, both of those alternatives are reasonable, but neither satisfies the adherents of their respective camps.

At the end of the day, this is a fantastical setting for a hobby that each of us pursues for our own reasons, with one reason being universal – personal enjoyment. Each of us needs to find our own way to enjoy the hobby, and the way one person enjoys the hobby might differ from the way that another person enjoys it. Each of us can identify aspects of various (sub-)factions that we like and dislike, and those likes and dislikes will affect whether or not we like that (sub-)faction. Game Workshop isn’t obligated to make every (sub-)faction universally appealing. Indeed, any attempt to do so would be a fool’s errand. Conversely, Games Workshop isn’t obligated to keep a (sub-)faction unchanged. As the world around us changes, Games Workshop will likely evolve the setting in order to preserve the viability and marketability of the game. The best that any of us can do is to approach the hobby in a healthy and reasonable manner, understanding that there will be things that we like and things that we dislike and that we just need to focus on those things that we like without letting the things that we dislike ruin the hobby for us and for others.