Making first born marines work

[Heathgrove]

Hello all!

Long time lurker first time poster.

I am in the startup of a new project. A Carcharadons Astra space marine force that I want to consist only of firstborn marines seeing that the hunters in the void may be hard to find and deliver primaris marines to.

In my mind I'd love to wield som tactical marines, soaring in gunships while engaging the enemy at short range with bolter and chainaxe. But I am well aware that this doesn't work to well in game...

So how would you make an army of first born marines work? I am not looking for a 100% optimized top of the line force but still something to to play in a level above narrative. I will play my space sharks as raven guard successors which I think is a valid plan seeing that they get some use out of their strategems.

Thanks in advance and looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

The void father watches over you.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Heathgrove

[Pearson73]

Don't know anything about gameplay, but that marine looks ace!

[Sarvis]

What color did you use for the armor??

[Captain Idaho]

Are you kidding Firstborn are possibly more competitive than Primaris! I say with tongue in cheek, but Firstborn are actually really solid.

 

Vanguard Veterans are great. Possibly the most effective unit in the Codex. Terminators are great too. Tactical Marines work well, as a weapon supporting squad that fills Troops.

 

Attack Bikes in particular are rocking too.

 

You can make some really powerful combinations mixing Firstborn and Primaris too.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

What makes you say firstborn don't work well?

[Lord_Ikka]

With all Firstborn marines getting +1 wound, now the difference between them and Primaris has become one of degrees rather than magnitude. By this I mean that Tac squads are now a viable option compared to Intercessors, as both have a role in the SM army- Intercessors are longer-ranged, but lack the option to have special/heavy weapons that give Tac squads a varied threat posture. 

 

Vanguard vets are probably some of the best marine units around- with the popular storm shield/lightning claw combo they are fast, hard to damage, and a decent threat even against multi-wound model units. Devastator squads pack a lot of heavy weapons for their point cost- they are on par with Predator/Gladiator damage output (depending on loadout) but can benefit from getting into cover and gaining strats like Transhuman. Terminator units are very hard to kill off now- there aren't a lot of d3 weapons in the game so even the ever-present d2 weapons wind up needing two unsaved shots to take out a single terminator. 

[Heathgrove]

Don't know anything about gameplay, but that marine looks ace!

Thanks!

 

What color did you use for the armor??

Dawnstone, shaded twice with agrax earthshade :) Once overall and then in the recesses. Then highlights with dawstone -> administratum grey -> ulthuan grey

 

Thanks for all responses! Seems like my feelings that firstborn are slighlty off is somewhat wrongly placed. I get the feeling generally when looking online and when comparing to primaris, seeing the firstborn lack ap on bolters and such.

 

I am glad to hear your generally positive attitude to the old fellas!

[Captain Idaho]

In truth there are very few units in the whole Codex that can't work on some level. We're very lucky. Even hyper competitive play, the slightly weaker choices aren't so weak you can't win games, since Obscuring Terrain and Objectives are a thing.

 

The only units I wouldn't touch ever are Reivers and Assault Marines. Both units have such solid alternatives there's very little reason for either. Which is sad, particularly for the Assault Marines who I always liked but have been eclipsed for quite some time now. Hell, they should probably be Troops now.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[MarshalMittermeier]

if you want a casual list with lots of troops, firstborn suck. tacticals are close to intercessors, BUT they have very poor stratagem support compared to primaris. this is why firstborn get a bad rep-most games are played between casual lists.

 

if you want a truly powerful list, you buy 3x5 tacticals (at most), and spam vanguard veterans and assault terminators(like, 20 vanguard veterans and 10 assault terminators, something like that), jump pack chaplain with +2" charge aura, hungry for battle trait for +1" charge range, combined with attack bikes with multimelta for antitank. the MOST powerful units in the codex right now, firstborn or not-no, bladeguard can't hold a candle to vanvets and assault terminators, and eradicators after their nerfs are just worse multimelta platforms than the attack bike. you fill out the rest of the points with whatever really. you will be ready for tournaments.

 

or you can build "something in between" and not be as cheesy.

Edited May 9, 2021 by MarshalMittermeier

[Captain Idaho]

It's interesting to me that Primaris get the most Strategum support, which is what boosts them up to competitive somewhat.

 

Tactical squad yes operate great in smaller squads thanks to their weapons. You can get more heavy and combi-weapons into a list (or a Storm Bolter on the Sergeant) with 2× 5 man squads than a single 10 man squad.

 

I don't think Tactical Marines are that bad, but they aren't the frontline marching horde Intercessors are of course.

[Lucerne]

You could just counts-as Firstborn.

 

Fluff Tacticus as various kinds of "fancy bolter" marine veterans (Void-hardened Mk 7 with "armor piercing" rounds?), Phobos as "recon marines", Gravis as counts-as thallax or something...

 

Basically, treat Primaris Nonsense as a sort of "Legion force, but M41" and go crazy with counts-as. It's not perfect and the idea wobbles a bit the further you get from the Firstborn baseline loadouts, but it does expand your options.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Lucerne

[MarshalMittermeier]

there is no reason for counts-as. ask yourself, what is the best way to create a competitive army?

 

rule #1: troops are the devil. they just can't kill stuff compared to other options. only take 3 cheap ones or find a way to not take any troops at all (i.e, rites of war). so take 3x5 tacticals or 3x5 intercessors, it doesnt matter-intercessors are better because they SUCK LESS. they still aint good, just a tax. so it wont make a difference.

 

rule #2: take good anti-tank. the best options currently are attack bikes with multimeltas and (currently for anti-drukhari, new meta)relic contemptor dreadnought. as B-tier you also have the redemptor, but its shooting isnt as efficient as relic contemptor's, and the eradicators, who have been nerfed twice and are now not as good as attack bikes. so, conclusion: attack bikes and relic contemptors.

 

rule #3: spam units of elite infantry. best are assault terminators and vanguard vets, and B-tier are bladeguard. so take the assault terminators and vanguard vets.

 

rule #4. take apothecary with selfless healer, doesnt matter primaris or not.

 

all in all, primaris have better troops (troops means garbage units that are taken as a tax and are inconsequential to your lists' efficiency) and worse elite units and shooty units(=the ones you really want). ideally, you'd take 3x5 primaris troops and all the rest of the list as firstborn. it wont change much if the 3x5 intercessors become 3x5 tacticals. you can totally create the BEST POSSIBLE list. (the reverse is not true- i love primaris and i try to slowly create a primaris-only force, but it sucks. attack bikes, assault terminators and vanguard vets are the core of any space marines list right now, and the primaris bladeguard (and multimelta ATVs for the bikes) just aint equal. strong, but not equal.) 

Edited May 9, 2021 by MarshalMittermeier

[Heathgrove]

Thanks for all your replies! It's very helpful and it's interesting to hear your thoughts and get a grip of your vision of the army as it stands.

 

I am considering using assault intercessors counts as for at least one troop choice (who doesn't want to use at least one squad of chainaxe wielding space sharks?) and two tactical squads with some bolters and meltagun.

 

You really seem to be praising the assault terminators and vanguard veterans. What are your loudputs for the vanguards (shield and claw?) And are you using hammer or claw terminators?

 

Also. Why is the assault terminators such an obvious choice compared to regular terminators with power fists?

 

Thanks again for your responses! Makes me happy to join the forum

[Demoulius]

Returning Blood Angel player here, I had basicly the same questions about whats good and what isent now. Obviously for Blood Angels having additional rules its abit different but I think overall the core of the army seems to be the same. I havent played in a while but tacticals havent changed that much over the years (aside from the 1 wound now) and I have played abit with Intercessors.

 

On the Primaris vs first born argument when it comes to troops: generally speaking tactical marines were never 'that' good. But one thing that they always did was stay alive quite well compared to other armies troops. Toughness 4 and a 3+ save on even your basic troops was quite nice. Stick them in cover and theyre even more resiliant and if theyre sitting ontop of an objective your opponent cant ignore them completly. Even if they did nothing aside from capturing you that objective, they can win you a game. But that applies to both tactical and Intercessors.

 

For tacticals: If you take a squad of 10 you add to their beefiness and can take some additional anti-tank or anti-infantry weapons (depending on what you want) to supplement their arsenal. The sargeants also have more options compared to intercessors. So theyre more versatile overall in that regard.

 

On the flipside, the basic arnament of Intercessors is alot better then the tactical squads bolters, but they can only gain more range on their grenades. So they would be a better choice if you just want your troops to squat down on an objective and gun down enemy infantry. They could hurt light vehicles at a pinch with gren launchers but I wouldnt make it their main selling point...

 

So tacticals can be a threat to just about anything that you tool them for, but only to a certain degree (only 1 pick of special and heavy weapon for a full squad) while Intercessors are better at anti infantry (and possibly light vehicles) but cant be tooled for much else.

 

If you just want a unit that squats down on an objective and does nothing else for the entire game though id just go for the cheapest and bare minimum here. Leaves more points for the rest of your army that way ;)

[MarshalMittermeier]

the thing is, the best way to use Troops is as a unit that squats on an objective and does nothing. so tacticals vs intercessors is only important for casual games anyway. for anyone that wants a strong list, its just 3 x 5 minimum cost units.

 

there is no reason to take 10 tacticals instead of 5 tacticals; you can just take 5 tacticals and 5 devastators that will ACTUALLY KILL SOMETHING.

 

sorry, but this obsession of people to put "soldiers with rifles" on the table is a pet peeve of mine; it doesnt work on the table and is totally unrealistic in the lore(even irl, an infantry squad has much more in common with veteran or devastator squads in terms of equipment, most people aren't mere riflemen, each squad of 8-13(depending on nation) has 2-3 machineguns, plus 1 antitank weapon, plus 2 grenade launchers etc) rifles just cant do anything other than "assist".

 

you should always try to put more and more heavy, powerful equipment on the tabletop. squads of riflemen don't do that. take as few as you can.

 

you want cc? spam vanguard vets, assault terminators, and maybe bladeguard. want shooting? spam hellblasters and devastators (and vehicles).

 

regarding vanvets loadout: best loadout is 1 x relic blade, 3 x thunderhammer, 3 x chainsword, 3 x claws, ALL with storm shield.

terminators: storm shield is a must. if you already have 6-7 storm shields in a squad, you can use some claws.

 

in general, storm shield is great currently.

Edited May 10, 2021 by MarshalMittermeier

[Captain Idaho]

Can't argue that Storm Shields are amazing :)

 

I like my Relic Terminators though. Decent melee potential plus can shoot well too on the drop and cause a lot of damage. Shooting 1 target then charging another is a great use for the unit. Especially in Tactical Doctrine.

 

Vanguard build for me - at least 5 Storm Shields. Always. Then a few Lightning Claws makes the unit powerful in close combat. If you think you'll come up against Marines, a couple Power Fists are good, but really I'm not a fan of hitting on 4s (gross) so I'd stick to the Lightning Claws.

 

Cheap Vanguard Marines can have 2 Chainswords each which is fairly cool too, as it puts out 5 attacks in the first round of combat.

[Demoulius]

the thing is, the best way to use Troops is as a unit that squats on an objective and does nothing. so tacticals vs intercessors is only important for casual games anyway. for anyone that wants a strong list, its just 3 x 5 minimum cost units.

 

there is no reason to take 10 tacticals instead of 5 tacticals; you can just take 5 tacticals and 5 devastators that will ACTUALLY KILL SOMETHING.

 

sorry, but this obsession of people to put "soldiers with rifles" on the table is a pet peeve of mine; it doesnt work on the table and is totally unrealistic in the lore(even irl, an infantry squad has much more in common with veteran or devastator squads in terms of equipment, most people aren't mere riflemen, each squad of 8-13(depending on nation) has 2-3 machineguns, plus 1 antitank weapon, plus 2 grenade launchers etc) rifles just cant do anything other than "assist".

 

you should always try to put more and more heavy, powerful equipment on the tabletop. squads of riflemen don't do that. take as few as you can.

 

you want cc? spam vanguard vets, assault terminators, and maybe bladeguard. want shooting? spam hellblasters and devastators (and vehicles).

 

regarding vanvets loadout: best loadout is 1 x relic blade, 3 x thunderhammer, 3 x chainsword, 3 x claws, ALL with storm shield.

terminators: storm shield is a must. if you already have 6-7 storm shields in a squad, you can use some claws.

 

in general, storm shield is great currently.

Results may vary I guess but ive gunned down plenty of things wtih tacticals same goes for scouts back when they were still troops. Bigger squads only make sense if you want both a heavy and a special weapon or want them to still be around at the end of the battle, You can take 5 and stick one weapon of your choice in there as well to keep them cheaper then a full squad, But in my experience 5 man squads rarely make it till the end of the battle, they die to quikly. And troops that arent on the field anymore cant really capture anything

 

Im not saying bigger squads is always a better choice then keeping them bare bones though. If you prefer to spend the points elsewhere, do that. Dont go out and say its THE only way to play though.

[templargdt]

Just wanted to say that model looks phenomenal, very well done!

[Captain Idaho]

For the record, I quite like Tactical Marines now. 2 wounds a piece and in small squads that fill Troops slots for Battalions whilst providing additional heavy and special weapons is really useful. Sure they don't last long under pressure, but that's what target saturation is for - will your opponent really take on those Tacticals in cover and behind obscuring terrain whilst 10 Terminators dropped on his doorstep or Vanguard are flying at him?

 

As Heavy Bolter platforms for Hellfire shells too, you'll find Tactical Marines useful there too.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[quasistellar]

I have to ask -- is that space marine model converted?  Its proportions look better like it has a longer torso.

[Heathgrove]

Just wanted to say that model looks phenomenal, very well done!

Thank you very much! :)

 

For the record, I quite like Tactical Marines now. 2 wounds a piece and in small squads that fill Troops slots for Battalions whilst providing additional heavy and special weapons is really useful. Sure they don't last long under pressure, but that's what target saturation is for - will your opponent really take on those Tacticals in cover and behind obscuring terrain whilst 10 Terminators dropped on his doorstep or Vanguard are flying at him?

 

As Heavy Bolter platforms for Hellfire shells too, you'll find Tactical Marines useful there too.

Good idea with the heavy bolter! Need to consider that.

 

I have to ask -- is that space marine model converted?  Its proportions look better like it has a longer torso.

It is slightly altered that is correct. :) But I keep it simple. I only add some greenstuff between the torso and knees and a little between the torso and head. It isn't any true truscale project but I think it adds just a little more height to the model making it look a little bit better. Glad you noticed. 

 

Good ideas from all. At the moment I'm painting tactical marines to start the force at 500points in a Crusade style campaign. Gotta need some bolter dudes but will make sure to add some killy-ness soon enough :P

 

I'm very happy about the positive feedback on the wip pic of my Carcharodon so thought I'd share the finished one aswell. Might start a little log on the correct subforum for them.

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here are fb units I consider competitive:

 

Multi-melta attack bikes

Terminators (various)

Vanguard veterans

Devastators

Smash Captain

Terminator Ancient

Terminator Librarian

[Captain Idaho]

Yep, they definitely top my list too.

 

There are definitely some units I'd add for specific builds and plays. An example would be Terminator Chaplains if you're teleporting in, or a foot Chaplain if you're coming out of Drop Pods and want to charge.

 

But then we do have a fondness for Terminators. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hellaz Yeaz !!!

[Dracos]

Anyone suggesting Troops are garbage has no clue about how to win in a truly competitive environment. They are absolutely essential for garnering what wins games.

 

Victory Points

 

You're whole army can be tabled but if your ObSec units lived long enough to outscore on the Primaries, you have a good chance to win the game.

 

Overly focusing on killing units can be fun but will lose you more games than not when playing a quality opponent willing to sacrifice the right units at the right time for the win.

 

 

 

PS: Attack Bikes, Speeders, Vanguard are all the rage in the competitive meta ... all Firstborn ... All of which still needs ObSec for the win.