Making first born marines work

[Captain Idaho]

Are Land Speeders doing well in the competitive scene? I've been out of the circuit myself and indeed see their merit, but didn't realise folk were using them.

 

(I suggesting Attack Bikes for months before the Internet caught on ;) )

[Ragnar69]

I don't think normal Speeders are really used outside of Ravenwing and I think not even there really. But Landspeeder Storms could be useful as a fast throwaway unit to snatch on objective or score some secondaries and they have a useful strat too and don't cost a FA slot.

Relic Contemptors with Volkite Culverins are currently the hottest FB unit.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Anyone suggesting Troops are garbage has no clue about how to win in a truly competitive environment. They are absolutely essential for garnering what wins games.

 

Victory Points

 

You're whole army can be tabled but if your ObSec units lived long enough to outscore on the Primaries, you have a good chance to win the game.

 

Overly focusing on killing units can be fun but will lose you more games than not when playing a quality opponent willing to sacrifice the right units at the right time for the win.

 

 

 

PS: Attack Bikes, Speeders, Vanguard are all the rage in the competitive meta ... all Firstborn ... All of which still needs ObSec for the win.

wait I thought tabling was an auto win...how do you win with no models on the board? That makes no sense

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

wait I thought tabling was an auto win...how do you win with no models on the board? That makes no sense

They took that out in chapter approved so you can win even if your tabled. Now your opponent gets to finish their turns, and score points unopposed. That said for your opponent to get that big of lead where they could beat you while not playing for a turn or two, you'd pretty much have to not play for the objectives at all in order to dig yourself that big of a hole.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

wait I thought tabling was an auto win...how do you win with no models on the board? That makes no sense

They took that out in chapter approved so you can win even if your tabled. Now your opponent gets to finish their turns, and score points unopposed. That said for your opponent to get that big of lead where they could beat you while not playing for a turn or two, you'd pretty much have to not play for the objectives at all in order to dig yourself that big of a hole.

like I said, makes no sense

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think the main reason they did it was to make it easier to determine strength of schedule for pairing. In alot of older tournaments it didn't matter if you got tabled during turn two or turn 5 you'd get zero points and your opponent would get the max. Now If you get tabled late your score should reflect that better.

[Captain Idaho]

It's to encourage players to balance their armies with units that score points so we don't get stuck with killhammer.

[Dracos]

(I suggesting Attack Bikes for months before the Internet caught on )

 

I remember that :)

 

 

On the tabling: I saw it happen in our Crusade couple months ago.  Good players both. Just a bad match up and mission combination. The Marine player tabled the Necron player T4 if I remember correctly but didn't have enough left to push his VP total past the Necron early grab.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

It's to encourage players to balance their armies with units that score points so we don't get stuck with killhammer.

whats wrong with killhammer?

Personally I hate playing for objectives. Just let me kill :cuss.

I think the main reason they did it was to make it easier to determine strength of schedule for pairing. In alot of older tournaments it didn't matter if you got tabled during turn two or turn 5 you'd get zero points and your opponent would get the max. Now If you get tabled late your score should reflect that better.

why should it matter what turn you got tabled in?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

It's to encourage players to balance their armies with units that score points so we don't get stuck with killhammer.

whats wrong with killhammer?

Personally I hate playing for objectives. Just let me kill :cuss.

I think the main reason they did it was to make it easier to determine strength of schedule for pairing. In alot of older tournaments it didn't matter if you got tabled during turn two or turn 5 you'd get zero points and your opponent would get the max. Now If you get tabled late your score should reflect that better.

why should it matter what turn you got tabled in?

There isn't anything wrong with just wanting to kill stuff, but the objectives make the game more interesting. 9th is way more lethal because both armies have to go into the mid field instead of just making a buff castle in their deployment zone.

 

As far the tournament scoring it mainly matters because of how many large tournaments we have now. The Dallas open had 170 people in it, having scoring be more precise makes it easier to determine players exact rankings. If for example you had two players who went 5-1 and both were tabled in their loss. I'd want the one who accomplished more in their defeat to be the one ranked higher (which would take more turns).

 

Mods is there a way we can have this topic split off into a new thread?

[Captain Idaho]

Not to bring things off topic to much, but the problems with Killhammer are things like boring netlists that just sit there and shoot each other become the normal and the game loses all nuance. Another problem can include a focus on several units to the exclusion of all others, because those units kill more efficiently etc.

 

Bringing this to full circle so we're back on track, more First Born units that are effective due to objectives holding is a good thing. Holding an objective at the back? Don't waste a unit completely, use Tactical and Devastator squads to score those points and shoot up the board.

 

Get a Rhino, put a squad in there and when it dies you can have an objective secured unit on the objective all of a sudden.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

You can also have the rhino fall back after its delivered its cargo to hold objectives in/near your deployment zone. Transports are pretty good in this mission structure, hopefully they see a bit of point drop.

 

On the topic of objective holding Company Veterans are another unit that is good at actions, and babysitting one in your deployment zone.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

It's to encourage players to balance their armies with units that score points so we don't get stuck with killhammer.

whats wrong with killhammer?

Personally I hate playing for objectives. Just let me kill :cuss.

I think the main reason they did it was to make it easier to determine strength of schedule for pairing. In alot of older tournaments it didn't matter if you got tabled during turn two or turn 5 you'd get zero points and your opponent would get the max. Now If you get tabled late your score should reflect that better.

why should it matter what turn you got tabled in?

There isn't anything wrong with just wanting to kill stuff, but the objectives make the game more interesting. 9th is way more lethal because both armies have to go into the mid field instead of just making a buff castle in their deployment zone.

 

As far the tournament scoring it mainly matters because of how many large tournaments we have now. The Dallas open had 170 people in it, having scoring be more precise makes it easier to determine players exact rankings. If for example you had two players who went 5-1 and both were tabled in their loss. I'd want the one who accomplished more in their defeat to be the one ranked higher (which would take more turns).

 

Mods is there a way we can have this topic split off into a new thread?

if they both got tabled in their loss, it's likely just one got a bit luckier than the other to survive longer

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Inquisitor_Lensoven - I think the fact that you can win while being tabled, and that both armies have to fight over the midfield makes being tabled different than earlier editions.

When I get home from work I'll make a new thread for this topic.

 

edit: I made a thread for this topic Getting tabled... and Winning? - + AMICUS AEDES + - The Bolter and Chainsword

Edited May 16, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Captain Idaho]

Always a good idea. ;) Edited May 16, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Commander_Moustache]

I am currently playing a Firstborn only Slamanders list (long winded fluff reasons, but I am stubborn that way), and they seem to be the best to take advantage of all the special weapons available to first born. Combined with the better transports for firstborn you can make amazing Combo's

Drop pods can get you a turn 1 charge, or drop a problem unit directly onto a point or act as a counter attack unit (also applies to first born dreadnoughts with the dreadnought drop pod).

Rhino's can be a goot battle taxi and can tie up a unit for faily little cost, for you to deal with later.

 

And while the bulk of stratagems do go to Primaris, firstborn do get a couple, especially meltabomb, which can be a nasty suprise.

[Grim Dog Studios]

Just thought I'd add to this discussion as I'm currently in the midst of building a small firstborn only force. What are the best anti-tank options available to us barring attack bikes with multi meltas and devastator squads, or are these the general go to's?

[XeonDragon]

Just thought I'd add to this discussion as I'm currently in the midst of building a small firstborn only force. What are the best anti-tank options available to us barring attack bikes with multi meltas and devastator squads, or are these the general go to's?

 

They are good, but take a look at sterngaurd veterans. They get super cheap combi weapons (5 points instead of the usual 10). So you can get a squad of 5 SGVs with combi-plasma or combi-melta for 125 points (25 points each), which is awesome compared to hellblasters in terms of points cost (which are 33 points per model).

 

You can also go the company veteran route. They have interesting combinations, one of which is is having 1 in a unit of 5 with a heavy weapon and storm shield (if the datasheet is RAW). Grav cannon, amp and storm shield anyone? :D So for 35 points per model you could have a squad of anywhere between 2 and 5 models with combi-weapons of choice and storm shields. So for only 2 points more than hellblasters you can get a squad with a 4++ and with a comparable plasma weapon (to be fair, one less pip of AP, a little less range, but still solid).

 

Otherwise, venerable dreadnoughts with twin las. Very reliable (BS2+), very durable (-1 damage and 6+++) and for 1CP can give captain or Lt re-rolls in 6" aura to core units, so can buff your shooting line. 

 

Other notable mentions (mileage may vary according to your chapter) include centurions of both flavours (RG love assault ones), dreadnoughts generally and terminators with chainfists (via melee). 

 

Also, sprinkling AT/AM weapons into tactical squads when combined with careful positioning is a great way to create a diffused, hard-to-target AT/AM capability to "plink" wounds off big nasties from across most of the board. I'm really loving missile launchers - very flexible, great range.

Edited June 8, 2021 by XeonDragon

[Commander_Moustache]

Vindicater laser destroyers are good if you are going first born. Also a particularly nasty combo is a fire raptor with a techmarine. +1 to hit, keep it in devistator doctrine and watch the mobs or heavy units just melt.