Guilliman's tabletop performance and getting him to work

[Captain Idaho]

How are people finding Guilliman on the table right now? Let's hivemind our experiences and tactical expertise for the leader of the Imperium. Especially now we're seeing other Imperial leaders coming out and taking the limelight.

 

Personally I'm finding him very easy to use. Games where taking objectives in the centre are paramount and plenty of infantry just see his special rules shine.

 

Will he be tournament solid? Well yes and no. The rest of the list might not be tournament solid, therefore adding Guilliman in won't change that. Guilliman helps lists that are focused on certain builds, a lot like taking a Star Dragon in High Elf lists in Fantasy.

 

Since Ultramarines do enjoy having large numbers of infantry on the board, Guilliman can march up the table with them and do a lot of good.

 

Units I feel really do well alongside Guilliman include:

 

• Terminators (they can teleport mid table to meet him if speed is an issue).

 

• Throngs of Intercessors.

 

• Hellblasters.

 

• Devastators and Tacticals supporting those Intercessors (likely the former since you've already got the Intercessors).

 

• Bladeguard. Bouncing out of an Impulsor, since Guilliman can keep up fairly well with an Advance move and turn 2 charge (which is the method for the Bladeguard from an Impulsor anyway)

 

• Vanguard. They work with everyone, though might leave behind Guilliman at times.

 

• Aggressors. A handy bodyguard really.

 

Anything else that particularly catches someone's eye?

[space wolf]

Maybe be a no brained....I've never played him but I think victix goes without saying. And I've seen some decent work out of centurions with him

[Captain Idaho]

Centurions are no longer Core though so I think they work less efficiently than previously.

 

Otherwise they're the go to unit I imagine.

 

Victrix Guard are a nice way to keep him alive longer no doubt. I don't feel they are particularly great for him beyond that though, but a nice supplement to keep him alive.

[greatcrusade08]

i really like the idea of intercessor spam tbh, i feel ultras do infantry shooty armies really well and bigG makes them even better at that

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

He works very well in tandem with the Eversor assassin when he goes hunting.

[Ishagu]

He's over costed and under powered, and the new Sisters character shows that. I'm willing to wager she'll cost under 300 points.

 

No need to pull hair out trying to get him to work, we just have to be patient for the next supplement.

 

If you're playing casual games in a non competitive setting then he's perfectly usable.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

i really like the idea of intercessor spam tbh, i feel ultras do infantry shooty armies really well and bigG makes them even better at that

They definitely do mid range shooting very effectively. I like a bit of melee myself, which is why I'd add the Terminators in since they shoot well and smash stuff in close combat.

 

He works very well in tandem with the Eversor assassin when he goes hunting.

That's a really good idea. Folk often forget how Guilliman can boost Imperium units too.

 

And Eversors are cool encarnate. Damn I'm using one now as got the urge.

 

He's over costed and under powered, and the new Sisters character shows that. I'm willing to wager she'll cost under 300 points.

 

No need to pull hair out trying to get him to work, we just have to be patient for the next supplement.

 

If you're playing casual games in a non competitive setting then he's perfectly usable.

It's off topic but there's no way that character is coming in South of 350pts! Blimey that will be power creep in the most offensive manner.

 

But yes Guilliman is totally usable in non-hyper tournament lists. Hell, I think he's still workable in tournament lists, though the room for error is drastically reduced. And of course top Adepticon things might be different too.

 

But then it's your expectations for tournaments really.

 

So yes I agree.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Subtleknife]

I think he is perfectly usable in anything outside of hyper competitive games. His rules work but he is overcosted and underperforms rules wise imo. The supplement as a whole needs a refresh. I am really interested which direction GW go with RG when they eventually refresh the supplement - Will the just cut his points (my least favourite option) or will they change up his rules (my most favourite option especially they make him a bit more thematic).

[Ishagu]

I used to think that but after Dark Eldar, Dark Angels and Death Guard he really doesn't stack up.

 

Even in a friendly game you need to craft a strong list just to last against those armies. Guilliman is a big investment with a modest force multiplication comparative to his cost.

 

That's why you have to be careful depending on your opponents. Death Guard and Dark Angels aren't exactly rare armies. Soon AdMech and Sisters are getting books too.

 

When a unit is already a non competitive choice, but the standard of forces around it rises with each new release, it becomes less and less useful. He should now be used when the opponent is aware the game is strictly friendly, because it's not fun or thematic to have a Guilliman led army get trounced.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

To be fair, I did forget how above the bell curve Death Guard and Dark Angels/Eldar are.

 

I am mostly comparing the Ultramarines and Guilliman to the rest of the game and forgot that.

[Ishagu]

I really need to point out that I'm not upset by the current status of RG, because we all know that we're using rules from the last edition. They'll be updated eventually, and I'm just hoping it's sooner rather than later.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I wish they would drop his points until they update his rules again.

[emperorpants]

I have to echo what others have been saying. When our codex dropped and we got the rules faq for our supplement, Guilliman seemed fine for the most part. However, as more 9th edition books dropped it became more apparent that Guilliman is a ways behind the curve. Which is the natural way of things as the release schedule continues, so bear in mind this is not a complaint. As Ishagu says, we will get a rules re work for him, so I'm not worried. :)

 

As he stands now, I would say that he is mostly for fun games, and not super competitive ones. For now. I'm excited to see how he gets updated! :)

 

I also agree with Black blow fly though, would be nice if Guilliman got a points drop until his rules update.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Also I feel like he should have the old skool rule that allows all friendly Ultramarine units within 6" to reroll all hits.

[CCE1981]

@Captain Idaho

 

Uhmm I’ll be surprised if she’s 250, they rate CPs at about 50 pts per. She has none, leaving her at a max of 230 compared to Guilliman. Almost all of her Stats are Guilliman -1, with her effective melee significantly less. I really don’t think she’ll be more than 200, maybe 175.

[Ishagu]

@Captain Idaho

 

Uhmm I’ll be surprised if she’s 250, they rate CPs at about 50 pts per. She has none, leaving her at a max of 230 compared to Guilliman. Almost all of her Stats are Guilliman -1, with her effective melee significantly less. I really don’t think she’ll be more than 200, maybe 175.

She's better in melee because she can re-roll all her hits and wounds, and with the miracle dice she can even guarantee 6 damage from her krack missiles in shooting. She's also better at clearing out cheap mobs that would slow Guilliman down.

 

She halves damage, so her durability is actually the same as Guilliman, not to mention she has superior auras that work on every faction of Sisters, allowing for optimum combinations.

 

But keep in mind that Guilliman hasn't been updated for 9th yet. His rules are not as spicy as what the new codex books provide. I expect a substantial update to his rules and point reevaluation.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Ishagu

[Tokugawa]

9th extremely disencourage soup for Marines, so the "all imperium units blah blah" ability is an ability which you may only use a small part of it , but paid the full price.

[Tokugawa]

"1cp = 50pts"is an AOS thing, and never true on 9th 40K.

 

Profile and auras of Azrael only worth 70pts? No sane DA player could agree on that.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not confident of getting a supplement anytime before 2023. :(

 

If GW are valuing 3CPs as 150pts, then their balancing issues are off. Especially since 9th is very generous with the CP generation.

[CCE1981]

@Ishagu

Your last paragraph reinforces that I believe she’ll be about 175 and definitely not above 250.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I know she’ll be cheap as chips,

[Captain Idaho]

So any lists that folk are using with Guilliman lately? Casual or competitive is all good. :)

[Frater Cornelius]

I'm not confident of getting a supplement anytime before 2023. :(

 

If GW are valuing 3CPs as 150pts, then their balancing issues are off. Especially since 9th is very generous with the CP generation.

2023 looks so damn futuristic... but then I remember that were in 2021 :D

 

Anyway, Bobby G lists? Unless the next few weeks will end up killing me, this is what I have in mind for a potential future game within the next month:

 

Hidden Content

++ Supreme Command Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [19 PL, 6CP, 380pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

 

Detachment Command Cost [3CP]

 

+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +

 

Roboute Guilliman [19 PL, 3CP, 380pts]: Nobility Made Manifest, Warlord

 

++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [81 PL, 7CP, 1,620pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

 

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 135pts]

 

Primaris Techmarine [5 PL, -1CP, 100pts]: Adept of the Codex, Chapter Command: Master of the Forge, Seal of Oath, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

 

+ Troops +

 

Infiltrator Squad [6 PL, 120pts]

. 4x Infiltrator: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine

. Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Infiltrator Squad [6 PL, 120pts]

. 4x Infiltrator: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine

. Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 200pts]: Bolt rifle

. 9x Intercessor: 9x Bolt pistol, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword

 

+ Elites +

 

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 180pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 180pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Victrix Honour Guard [3 PL, 70pts]: Victrix Honour Guard, Victrix Honour Guard

 

Victrix Honour Guard [3 PL, 70pts]: Victrix Honour Guard, Victrix Honour Guard

 

Victrix Honour Guard [3 PL, 70pts]: Victrix Honour Guard, Victrix Honour Guard

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Assault Plasma Incinerator

. 4x Hellblaster: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Impulsor [7 PL, 115pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Ironhail Heavy Stubber

 

++ Total: [100 PL, 13CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

Maybe I'll spend more CP for Vox on the Apothecary for that juicy 6" bubble as well. I am also considering to drop the TM in favour of a second Librarian. I'd run Scryers Gaze, Empyric Channelling and something else on Tiggy, and Psychic Fortress and Might or Heroes on the Lib. Saves me the stress of gambling with Adept of the Codex and opens up another WT. Probably Rites of War.

[Ishagu]

Have you all seen the points for the new Supreme Commander of the Sisters?

 

She's better than Guilliman... and costs 265 points lol

 

I did say that he's about 100 points over-costed... GW should drop his cost to 260-280 or update his rules significantly.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Ishagu

[CCE1981]

I am thoroughly surprised