Firing Sequence for strats.

[Morticon]

Custodes have an auspex equivalent strat that uses the following wording:

 

"Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within 12" of an ADEPTUS CUSTODES INFANTRY unit from your army. That unit can immediately shoot at the enemy unit as if it were the Shooting phase, but you must subtract 1 from all the resulting hit rolls."

 

Sisters have a strat that says this:

 

"Use this Stratagem after a SERAPHIM SQUAD unit from your army is set up on the battlefield from high in the sky. Until the end of that phase, add 6" to the Range characteristic of Pistol weapons models in that unit are equipped with. That unit can shoot as if it were your Shooting phase."

 

 

Who gets to shoot first?

 

 

My contention is that, despite the use of "immediately" in the first strat, these stratagems are able to be played at the same time (ie: at a specific point in movement phase). 

 

Because theyre able to be played at the same time, owning player takes precedence. 

Counter argument is that "immediately" takes sequencing precedence.   (This is despite the Sisters strat also allowing you to use it immediately after you deploy on account of a point in time "after deployment" can be "immdiately" after deployment ).

 

 

Your thoughts as to why/why not and who shoots first. 

 

Links, evidence and well reasoned arguments very much appreciated. 
Thanks. 

 

 

[Valkyrion]

I'd argue in favour of the custodes. 

 

 

ATTACKER’S PRIORITY

While resolving attacks, you'll occasionally find that two rules cannot both apply - for example, when an attacking model with an ability that enables it to always score a successful hit on a 2+ targets a model that has an ability that states it can only be hit on a 6+. When this happens, the attacking model’s rules take precedence.

 

 

 

The rare rules section doesn't say 'owning' player, it says 'attacking' player, and the word 'immediately' makes the custodes player the attacker in this situation, IMO.

 

But I've been wrong before!

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I agree with Morticon's conclusion, though with perhaps different reasoning.

 

At least on the wording you have provided us, the sister's stratagem doesn't need to be used immediately after the unit lands, but can be at any time later in that movement phase, even if you have since moved other units. 

 

As well, I don't see the custodes wording as giving it priority over effects that don't contain the word immediately, but rather being a limitation on when it can be used.  SO, unlike the sisters' stratagem, it would need to be used before the movement phase proceeds.

 

Normally, stratagems resolve immediately (I suppose its wording could indicate otherwise, but no examples come to mind).  Given that the sisters' player has the choice of when to play the stratagem, the sisters' player could chose to use it immediately after the seraphim unit landed, at which point it would normally resolve immediately.  If the custodes player also played his stratagem at the same time (as the stratagem requires) the rules would trigger regarding how to determine the order of resolution of simultaneous actions.

 

That rule is not the one cited by Valkerion, as this isn't a case of mutually contradictory rules - both rules can be true, the question is simply in which order they are true.  Rather the correct rule is that under the Sequencing heading in the Basic Rules sectio (p 59 of the Mission Pack minibook, don't have my BRB here to give you a page number).  There is no requirement under that rule that the two actions MUST happen at the same time, only that they ARE.  Under that rule, when 2 or more things are to occur at the same time, the rule allows the person whose turn it is to chose the order of resolution - so, in this case the sisters' player.

 

 

tldr: It doesn't matter whether the wording for the custodes ability requires it to happen immediately, if the sisters player chooses to have the seraphim rule trigger at the same time, the Sequency rule allows the sisters player to chose what order they occur.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Morticon]

I'd argue in favour of the custodes. 

 

 

ATTACKER’S PRIORITY

While resolving attacks, you'll occasionally find that two rules cannot both apply - for example, when an attacking model with an ability that enables it to always score a successful hit on a 2+ targets a model that has an ability that states it can only be hit on a 6+. When this happens, the attacking model’s rules take precedence.

 

 

 

The rare rules section doesn't say 'owning' player, it says 'attacking' player, and the word 'immediately' makes the custodes player the attacker in this situation, IMO.

 

But I've been wrong before!

 

 

The "attacking player" wording is only used in cases where there are conflicting rules.  The example given was hits on 2+ vs 'can only be hit on 6+". 

 

This situation is covered on page 201 under "Sequencing" .  

 

"If several rules must be resolved at the same time, the player whose turn it is chooses the order to resolve them". 

 

Normally, stratagems resolve immediately (I suppose its wording could indicate otherwise, but no examples come to mind).  Given that the sisters' player has the choice of when to play the stratagem, the sisters' player could chose to use it immediately after the seraphim unit landed, at which point it would normally resolve immediately.  If the custodes player also played his stratagem at the same time (as the stratagem requires) the rules would trigger regarding how to determine the order of resolution of simultaneous actions.

 

 

 

 

This is exactly my argument.  I'm curious to hear more against it, because Im coming up with a lot of resistance to this. 

[Tyriks]

I agree that the two happen simultaneously and therefore would be resolved at the discretion of the player who's turn it is.

[Morticon]

Are there any arguments or counter thoughts for why the "Immediately" of the Custodes strat would take precedence? Or why its not at the same time?

 

 

(FWIW, Im having to play devils advocate to try and preempt the arguments being offered). 

[Xenith]

If they want to argue about the word immediately, counter with the word 'can'. They don't have to fire immediately. 

 

Two rules that should resolve at the same time, ergo player whose turn it is chooses order of resolution.

[McElMcNinja]

Another way to look at it, the sisters have 2 Seraphim squads arriving. The first Seraphim squad lands within 12” and can now play their strat as it says “after”, which would be from the moment they landed until the end of the movement phase. The Custodes player must play theirs for that unit if they are going to, they may choose not to as they know a second unit is coming down. Then the second squad lands but 13” out, the Custodes player cannot now play their strat while the sisters player can choose to play theirs.