Dark Imperium 3: Godblight discussion

[Felix Antipodes]

I still think GW have plans for a Primarch face off between the Lion and Guilliman - or at least have laid down breadcrumbs for this scenario if they want to pursue it down the track.

I could see the Lion resurfacing on the Nihilus side of the Rift and setting up a winner takes all fight between the brothers, after years of milking the recovery of Nihilus of course. ;-)

[Blood Angel Scout]

Without putting spoilers, could see the ramifications of Historitor Fabian's finding and Rotgus's speech to Ku'Gath, as this being a path for the Lion's awakening.

 

Edit:missed word for context.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Blood Angel Scout

[Osteoclast]

Definitely the weakest installment in Dark Imperium and something I had to kind of force myself through which was a bit of a surprise, I normally love Haley’s books.

 

The Black Library has always been weak on matters touching faith (Sandy Mitchell’s cringe inducing strawman versions of Sisters being an example that always come to mind) and it’s no real exception here. The repeated theme of “What is a god?” gets tossed around without any resolution despite literally thousands of years of philosophical and theological debate that could wrap it up fairly quickly. It’s not helped that GW doesn’t seem to have any idea what they want faith to be (somehow, for no particular reason, faith in the Emperor is a distinct thing from other warpy faith things).

 

Felix appears to exist for the sake of existing in this book; I’m not sure what real purpose he had other than being pissed at the fairly pointless daemonic interrogation.

 

The Scourge Stars scene was cool and then completely not used further.

 

Father Mateiu was cool in the first book, Flanderized badly in the second, and then Flanderized on bath salts in this one. See above complaints about faith in BL works.

 

Gonna laugh my ass off if the whole “Golden eyed Abaddon” thing from staring into the Astronomicon of ADB means that the Rift is a “Just as planned!” from the Emperor for his resurrection and attack against the Chaos gods and that the theories of Abaddon unwittingly being the Emperor’s agent are true.

 

There’s definitely executive “Push these models!” meddling apparent. Justinian’s recon force has assault intercessors, Phobos troops (including a Librarian who I don’t think actually does anything), Eradicators, and an entirely random and out of place squad of Bladeguard Veterans.

 

I want that faith train.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Osteoclast

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

There’s definitely executive “Push these models!” meddling apparent. Justinian’s recon force has assault intercessors, Phobos troops (including a Librarian who I don’t think actually does anything), Eradicators, and an entirely random and out of place squad of Bladeguard Veterans.

 

 

Uh...

 

 

Did we read the same book?

 

Because those Bladeguard Vets managed to be so out of place that I didn't even notice them.

 

Is it possible you're confusing the Lieutenant (who was running the Indomitus getup with a Storm Shield) for a Bladeguard Sergeant?

 

And that Phobos Librarian was REALLY good at the Obscuration thing because I don't remember him either. The closest thing they had to a psyker was the Magos whose "witch-finder" was the main focus of their mission.

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Lord Nord

[Osteoclast]

Uh...

 

 

Did we read the same book?

 

Because those Bladeguard Vets managed to be so out of place that I didn't even notice them.

 

Is it possible you're confusing the Lieutenant (who was running the Indomitus getup with a Storm Shield) for a Bladeguard Sergeant?

 

And that Phobos Librarian was REALLY good at the Obscuration thing because I don't remember him either. The closest thing they had to a psyker was the Magos whose "witch-finder" was the main focus of their mission.

 

Using the search feature in iBooks, I can only conclude that I clearly have early onset dementia.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Osteoclast

[DarkChaplain]

Sure you weren't thinking of Gav's Pariah Nexus book, which was an obvious tie-in for the box set?

[caladancid]

Sure you weren't thinking of Gav's Pariah Nexus book, which was an obvious tie-in for the box set?

 

So I just finished, and while Indomitus was terrible yes, unfortunately Godblight is fairly awful.  I am not sure what happened.  Plague War was an excellent novel, I though the writing was at Haley's top form and it had genuinely cool moments.  This one felt like he was writing for the first time, trying to see how many times he could use the new unit names in a few places.

 

I really am baffled.  It is like a different person wrote this from the one who wrote the first two.

Edited May 31, 2021 by caladancid

[Osteoclast]

Sure you weren't thinking of Gav's Pariah Nexus book, which was an obvious tie-in for the box set?

Didn’t read that one, so no. Only thing I can think of is some memory bleed over from making an order while also painting BGVs this week.

[DukeLeto69]

Reading these reviews so far I am glad I didn’t splurge £54 on getting all three as hardbacks. The completist in me will still want the paperbacks though!

[kamedake88]

Interesting, for once I am of the complete different opinion then most of you. I thoroughly enjoyed this work for what it was though I listened to it rather then read it. On that front this was John Banks best work full stop. As for the plot of the novel, I do suspect the content was elevated somewhat by the narration. I have zero skin in the game when it comes to these factions since I don't play the game and I despise what the Horus Heresy series turned the Death Guard into. With that in mind I think I was able to enjoy how that characters were written as opposed to keeping my eyes an inch from the page trying to glean any further ramifications for the wider universe. 

 

The Guilliman parts were absolutely the weakest parts for me until forced myself  to keep in mind that the character is the ultimate rationalist. He is hampered entirely by his nature as such and is incapable of being anything else than what the Emperor created him to be. The supporting cast carried the novel and the dynamics between provided most of the entertainment for me. 

 

I went into this work not even knowing it was coming out and Haley has done an excellent job carrying the bag of dung that is the post rift 40k world. Too often we expect War and Peace from black library when clearly we should be expecting The Davinci Code levels of writing.    

[DukeLeto69]

I would say several of the BL authors are FAR superior to Dan Brown!

[DarkChaplain]

I would sign that claim without hesitation. Dan Brown was fun the first time around, after that it's just ultra-formulaic and the bumpulls never stop.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Minor spoiler that went by me as I'm not a Grey Knights player, but GK fans may find it interesting:

 

 

Ionan Grud, Brother-Captain from the Grey Knights' 4th Brotherhood, appears early on to help facilitate a ritual where a daemonhost is interrogated for information by Guilliman. Grud advises against the procedure and in fact once the ritual is completed he tells Gilly he will never participate in another. Beyond that, not only does Grud leave Guilliman's fleet, but all of his brotherhood leave the same day, no matter which splinter of Fleet Primus they may currently be serving in. We are told they wouldn't serve again at Guilliman's side "for some time," so it sounds like fences will eventually be mended but for now Guilliman's fleet will be without Grey Knight support.

 

Grud is also retroactively identified as the Grey Knight who stepped up to challenge Typhus in the Plague War novel following the death of the Novamarines' Chapter Master and subsequently wounded him "offscreen," causing him to withdraw and thereby saving Galatan from being overrun by Nurgle's boys.

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Lord Nord

[Urauloth]

I'm going to see how the rewrites are before getting to this. Do we discuss those here, or should they have their own thread?

[Kelborn]

=][=

 

I have merged the two Godblight related threads for better and more direct communication.

Furthermore, the threads name was adapted accordingly.

 

If you want to talk about the DI trilogy as a whole, feel free to do that in a seperate (and focused) thread.

This one's for Godblight now.

 

=][=

[Dried]

Does a reorganized timeline with all the corrections exist somewhere?
I'm a little lost right now on what happened in which order.

[DarkChaplain]

If we take The Gathering Storm as the basic jumping off point...

 

Vaults of Terra: The Carrion Throne

Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion / ~Cadia Stands. It's fall is reported as news in TEL

Dawn of Fire: Avenging Son

Watchers of the Throne: The Regent's Shadow

Dawn of Fire: Gate of Bones

[further Dawn of Fire]

Knights of Macragge

[further Dawn of Fire]

Dark Imperium

Dark Imperium: Plague War

Dark Imperium: Godblight

.

.

Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work

The Devastation of Baal

Darkness in the Blood, other Nihilus stories that feature Primaris already.

 

Supposedly, Swords of Calth would happen after Dark Imperium, since Ventris has already spoken with Guilliman for the first time. However, mention of Uriel being an "old type" is gone from DI Redux, implying he's Primaris already. On the flipside, SoC says that Guilliman warned Ventris about the changes after crossing the Rubicon, which would imply that he wasn't Primaris during their first meeting.

 

Calgar has been Primaris for several years according to DI Redux, which means the Vigilus story has supposedly happened, but he hasn't had his rematch with Abaddon yet. He's set to return to Vigilus after DI.

 

I'm not clear where Blood of Iax fits, since I haven't read it yet. Most of the Space Marine Conquests books will be set after Godblight, by my reckoning. No idea about the Ynnari books.

 

Edit: Added The Great Work

Edited June 1, 2021 by DarkChaplain

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

The Devastation of Baal definitely happens before Dark Imperium. Guilliman's purpose for sending the rogue trader to run the Nachmand Guantlet is to deliver a message to Dante, which would only have been possible once Baal was actually reachable and Guilliman had already gone to Baal the second that was possible.

 

Personally, I'd go ahead and put Darkness in the Blood and the last two Mephiston books ahead of Dark Imperium as well, but it's not impossible that some or all of them could occur concurrently or even afterward (although future books may very well render that impossible). The Astorath tales definitely take place prior to Darkness in the Blood.

 

Of the Conquest books, the one that sticks out aside from Devastation is Of Honour and Iron, which takes place early in the Crusade and whose events do have a bit of an impact on Godblight.

 

Haven't read Cadian Honour yet, but it would take place pretty early on, probably shortly after the events of The Regent's Shadow.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Lord Nord

[Ishagu]

In the new Dark Imperium 1, Guilliman states that they haven't crossed into Imperium Nihilus yet.

[jaxom]

Re: Felix miniature

Past discussion

 

It did leave me wondering why there isn’t a model for Felix though.

 

He's outfitted exactly like the Dark Imperium Gravis Captain, toilet-seat iconography aside.

 

I mean, having the exact same gear hasn't stopped GW from producing Primaris Lieutenants or Stormcast Whichevers. They even give those unique names (if not rules).

From that perspective, Felix is clearly getting shafted.

It's exactly what they did with Shadowspear. The taskforce has/had names for each character, but the models were generic.

 

Re: Mathieus and Imperium Civil War

Past discussion

Around Chapter 18 and one big thought so far.

 

By the Emperor, Mathieu went from annoying as hell to just the worst.

Seriously, he spends this entire book ignoring Guilliman, doing whatever he wants and just arguing with what feels like troll logic.

Only like halfway in and he is on his THIRD unauthorized action (and second illegal assault). I rather desperately just want him to get eaten by a Beast of Nurgle at this point.

 

 

 

One "big" change I've noticed while listening to Dark Imperium's first few chapters is that Haley replaced Roboute's Gladius Incandor with the Emperor's Sword even in the Fulgrim fight. Before, he'd only get this one after his restoration, now he has it before being stasis'd.

 

Fulgrim actually comments on it, and it makes for the more powerful scene. The Gladius Incandor actually kinda went poof while deflecting Fulgrim's strikes, with the field generator's outburst putting some distance between the two. In the new version, the Sword of the Emperor sparks up and burns Fulgrim's face, with the same result of parting the Primarchs.

 

This basically means that Guilliman as regent of the Imperium post-Heresy not only put his mark on the High Lords with their later "Lord Guilliman" seat, but that at the very least Russ and the Khan were fine with Roboute picking up their father's sword.

That makes it pretty clear to me that even if GW were to bring Russ back in the present day, he'd not really take an issue with an "upstart" Guilliman in charge and wielding their dad's authority. He was around during the 2nd Founding, the regency and even Guilliman's supposed death, so if anything, he'd support Roboute in M41/42 in his efforts to rebuild the Imperium.

 

One "small" change like replacing the weapon in the first part of the book has pretty big ramifications for present-day speculation in this way.

TBH? I think the idea that any of the Loyalists (outside of the Lion) would mind is sort of an artifact of the fanbase more than anything else.

 

There is still alot of residual hate for Guilliman and the UM from the old days and I think it has sort of been projected in alot of peoples' heads.

 

Looking at the actual books? Most of the Primarchs seemed to have not liked Guilliman, but no one seems to have really thought he was sketchy or untrustworthy, outside of the Lion who we similarly know does not like or trust any of his brothers. 

 

And even then, most of that dislike Guilliman got from the others seems to be more in line with them finding him legitimately annoying more than anything else. Sort of like that really upright and annoying relative cliche. 

 

Its sort of ironic that for his part Guilliman seems to like and respects most of the others though lol.

 

Jokes aside, I think literally only the Lion would really make an issue if he came back. And even then we have enough of a record to know he is not hasty and is more likely to build a case against Guilliman in his own mental court before doing anything. 

 

Probably the most boring return would be the Khan I think, since Jaghatai would not give a cuss either way lol.

 

 

 

I agree completely, StrangeOrders. The one plot thread that I could see turning into a source of friction / the fan-theorized new civil war would be down to the Lion, due to their history with Imperium Secundus, the breaking of the Lion Sword, and Guilliman failing to reach Terra in time - which the Lion blames himself for as well, of course, but in his grief he projected it onto Russ as well, stabbing him.

He's the odd one out who also exited the stage real quickly after the Siege, and didn't get to see the decades of Guilliman's "rule".

 

Frankly, I never really got the Guilliman bashing to begin with. He was a good choice to bring back (especially since it's been hinted at forever) and he shakes things up just enough. People projected the Codex-stickler mentality onto Roboute as well, even though he's the one who warned against taking it as gospel and rejecting tactical flexibility.

 

If anything, Dark Imperium and Dawn of Fire are giving me plenty of reasons to consider Guilliman one of my favorite Primarchs around. He's presented in a much more nuanced way than you'd think from his reputation. Heck, I actually think the pent-up fan expectations of what Guilliman had to be like feeds into the theme of Guilliman's disappointment with the state of the galaxy, his sons and the Imperium at large. He frequently criticises them for putting him and his works on a pedestal. In The Armour of Fate, he even gets annoyed when people don't realize that Roboute Guilliman also has a sense of humor.

 

Haley's Guilliman is pretty much the key reason why I'm excited about Dawn of Fire and Dark Imperium. He strikes the balance between the powerful bureaucrat, the passionate leader chained by responsibility and the fallible man trying to measure up to expectations he sets for himself.

 

 

As for the Sword thing, it wouldn't be too strange for the thing to be returned to the Emperor after Guilliman falls into his stasis coma. In some fluff pieces since 8th, he also received it from Cawl apparently? I didn't read Rise of the Primarch, so I can't say what's correct.

 

Edit: Looks like this is addressed later on in the book, though I haven't reached that point yet myself. The Custodes seem to be involved one way or another, at the very least.

 

 

Speaking purely personally, it never came from a place of liking or disliking Guilliman outside of the setting. I want an Imperium civil war because I thought (and still think) that bringing Guilliman back by himself, of all primarchs, was the most boring option possible. The Imperium to me has no single leader, it's leaders are not sympathetic or even remotely functional, and they should have no idea what things were like 10,000 years ago. Bringing back the Lion, or Guilliman along with the Lion, would at least create some of the friction that's more in keeping with 40k's past.

 

If anything I like Guilliman even better in M41, he's usually handled well by Black Library. His presence is simply a choice I've always thought was made 100% for money and 0% out of an understanding of 40k's virtues as a setting.

 My thoughts:

""Only the insane have strength enough to prosper; only those that prosper may judge what is truly sane."

 

Mathieu is quintessential 40k. At face value we can be told that the god-emperor's faithful are nutters, but their madness gets results. We get to see that play out. It's intensely difficult to write a good, fulfilling pay-off to a narrative based on faith because inherently there's no narrative foundation. Yet, at the same time, a lot of Godblight's quieter moments are building up the idea that belief, specifically irrational belief has an impact on the universe and that impact is larger than it should be (with multiple possible reasons for why given). Of course, that doesn't solve the problem; there's still no foundation other than narrative-needs to explain whether someone is faithful enough - look at the Knight Princess and the Iron Warrior in Gate of Bone. The other thing to note is that Godblight presents more than one possible reason for all of the "faith"-based events. Are Mathieu and Guilliman acting as lenses for the belief of mass humanity? Is the Emperor working through them? Both? Regardless, it provides stepping stones for future stories.

 

As for an Imperium civil war... it already happened and the Primarchs lost. Guilliman and the rest were so busy with the Scouring (and their own traumas) that they missed the opening phase. Could only seven against the rising tide of faith among billions then trillions? The Imperial Church won the war against the tattered remains of whatever secular ideals were left after the Horus Heresy. The Custodes make realpolitik decisions in Gate of Bone based on it and Guilliman makes a number of decisions based on it. I think it isn't that he's accommodating Mathieu, but Mathieu accommodating him. When the Church sours on Space Marines it's the Space Marines that lose.

 

As much as the Lion gets characterized by his friction and lack-of-trust towards his fellow primarchs; many leave out the most important detail that's been further set in stone with the release of Crusade and his primarch novella. The Lion prioritized the continued existence of the Imperium as an actual over the existence of the Imperium as an idea. He knew/believed the Imperium was a stabilizing mechanism for humanity and that the Imperial Truth was a tool to make that happen, just as he and his brothers were tools. So long as Guilliman is a net-positive towards stability and preserving humanity then there's no conflict. 

  

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

In the new Dark Imperium 1, Guilliman states that they haven't crossed into Imperium Nihilus yet.

 

Where does he say that?

 

I'd just like to know his exact phrasing because "I haven't crossed into Imperium Nihilus yet" and "I am planning to cross into Imperium Nihilius soon" don't mean the same thing.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Lord Nord

[DarkChaplain]

Plague War confirms that he has yet to go to Baal, and doesn't want to comment on his precise plans for when he goes to Nihilus.

 

 

He gave her an amused look. ‘I shall have the necessary information released. The message I wish you to convey to Lord Commander Dante is ready. It will be sent to your ship an hour before you depart.’

‘That’s very precise.’

‘Precision is what I was made for. The contents of the message are to remain secret. Although they are encrypted, and sealed within an annihilation casque, there are always ways that secrets can be let free.’

‘An annihilation casque?’ She was shocked by that. ‘I better make it through then,’ she said.

‘You will thank me for a clean death if your ship is overtaken,’ he said.

She couldn’t argue with that.

‘It’s common knowledge you’re going to cross. Why the need for secrecy?’

He stopped, and looked down at her. ‘By making it common knowledge that I will cross to Imperium Nihilus, I make sure the enemy knows. What I am to do there, however, I would rather he knew nothing of.’

‘Are you to go to Baal?’

‘That remains to be seen,’ said Guilliman. ‘All things are possible.’

‘You know, but you’re not going to tell me.’

‘I do, and I am not. Hence the need for the annihilation casque.’

Guilliman began to walk again.

 

This both adds content compared to the original version of Plague War, and it also refers to Lord Commander Dante specifically, where before, it said "warden of Imperium Nihilus". The clear implication is that Dante hasn't been named warden yet, Guilliman hasn't visited Baal or crossed into Nihilus, while both his followers and enemies expect him to do so soon, and he's sending advance notice. Unlike the old timeline, where communications were clearly established already, here they have not been.

[aa.logan]

Finished it. Not quite as good as good as the first two, and none of the trilogy is quite as good as a puppy.

 

I’m sure to have more thoughts later- until reading this thread I’d forgotten that Fabian is from the Dawn of Fire series rather than this trilogy, so it’s going to take a little while to align all these arcs in my head.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Plague War confirms that he has yet to go to Baal, and doesn't want to comment on his precise plans for when he goes to Nihilus.

 

 

He gave her an amused look. ‘I shall have the necessary information released. The message I wish you to convey to Lord Commander Dante is ready. It will be sent to your ship an hour before you depart.’

‘That’s very precise.’

‘Precision is what I was made for. The contents of the message are to remain secret. Although they are encrypted, and sealed within an annihilation casque, there are always ways that secrets can be let free.’

‘An annihilation casque?’ She was shocked by that. ‘I better make it through then,’ she said.

‘You will thank me for a clean death if your ship is overtaken,’ he said.

She couldn’t argue with that.

‘It’s common knowledge you’re going to cross. Why the need for secrecy?’

He stopped, and looked down at her. ‘By making it common knowledge that I will cross to Imperium Nihilus, I make sure the enemy knows. What I am to do there, however, I would rather he knew nothing of.’

‘Are you to go to Baal?’

‘That remains to be seen,’ said Guilliman. ‘All things are possible.’

‘You know, but you’re not going to tell me.’

‘I do, and I am not. Hence the need for the annihilation casque.’

Guilliman began to walk again.

 

This both adds content compared to the original version of Plague War, and it also refers to Lord Commander Dante specifically, where before, it said "warden of Imperium Nihilus". The clear implication is that Dante hasn't been named warden yet, Guilliman hasn't visited Baal or crossed into Nihilus, while both his followers and enemies expect him to do so soon, and he's sending advance notice. Unlike the old timeline, where communications were clearly established already, here they have not been.

 

Thanks for the excerpt.

 

The thing is, if it's true that Gilly hasn't already gone to Imperium Nihilus, that is going to end up necessitating a rewrite of the end of Devastation of Baal... unless Gilly's post-Godblight plans change.

 

And if Plague War is now pre-DoB, it's odd that he would be sending a message to Dante as if he expects Dante to actually get it. Baal was unreachable via warp shenanigans since the Rift opened, something that Gilly would surely know by the time of the DI novels. It really still only makes sense for that conversation to take place after Baal was back in realspace. And like I said before, Guilliman showed up almost immediately after that happened. There just really isn't time for him to be sending a message after Baal is actually reachable and then sitting around for the several months between Plague War and Godblight. Not unless Dante took a VERY long nap.

 

Plus, Darkness in the Blood doesn't really line up with a timeline where Godblight takes place ahead of DoB either. But again, that gets into Gilly's stated intentions in Godblight.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Lord Nord

[aa.logan]

I think the existence of the Dawn of Fire series has hamstrung this book. They’ve made the trilogy less of an ‘event’ so it’s inevitably going to comparatively disappoint.

 

It starts well, with lots of portentous conversation and there is a radical suggestion towards the end of the book that would make even Jaq Draco blush, but in terms of the inevitable duel between Mortarion and Gulliman there is no tension, no drama- I appreciate that the status quo between Chaos and the Imperium must broadly be maintained, especially when dealing with such big characters, but the lack of any sort of peril doesn’t help the book.

 

There are great moments-

when Fabius encounters the nurgling in the rain, the two accounts of the intervention in the tank battle and the short story in the LE

but overall it’s less than the sum of it’s parts.

 

What is striking, is how much of ‘modern’ 40k fiction comes from one author- not since the early days of BL and the Abnettverse has one writer had such a hand in the setting’s novels. I’m glad it’s Guy, for while this book isn’t quite his best, I still enjoyed it