Dark Imperium 3: Godblight discussion

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Definitely is great. Carries the trilogy to its end suitably, furthers Guilliman's characterization, and bridges a few different works including The Great Work and Devastation of Baal. Loved the crap out of it. Couldn't put it down after I got it until I finished it.

[Brother Lunkhead]

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Move along please, and don't be incorrigible....... you know who you are

 

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[Subtleknife]

I do hope there are some more books from Gmans perspective. Whilst the book concluded the story of the plague wars I feel the threads they left untold would really benefit from Gmans perspective.

[Vanger]

Theory re: potential schisms

 

Between Guilliman reading the Lectitio at the end of Plague War, and encountering / recalling suppressed memories of the Emperor here, seeing what monstrosity his soul has become while rotting on the throne for ten millennia (in the Draco-style), and the Ecclesiarchy deciding to reinstate their own militia/military in the audio box set involving Greyfax and Celestine, along with already existing disgruntlement between pragmatic rationalist Guilliman vs the Imperial Creed, including his frequent denials of his father's godhood and his own demigod status, that others revere him as, we have a powder keg waiting to explode.

 

With Guilliman not happy about his father's state of mind, to call it that, and increasingly resenting him for his ulterior plans and treatment as a despised tool, he might end up on a spiritual collision course with the Ecclesiarchy one way or another. So far he's been playing along as much as he reasonably had to, to keep things orderly. But now he knows both the scripture - which so far he hadn't read for himself, despite punishing Lorgar for it at the Emperor's behest during the Great Crusade - and has seen the real thing on the Throne, both physically and psychically. He's not happy with it, and apprehensive of the Emperor actually returning if this is what he's become.

 

On the flipside, we have the Ecclesiarchy militarizing beyond the decrees of having "no men at arms", which was the reason to have the Sororitas. Technically, the Ecclesiarch Decius XXIII did repeal the Decree Passive - even though he was executed right after. We have yet to really see the full impact of that.

 

The pieces are on the board already.

 

There are multiple fault lines which could rupture in a schism:

Guilliman vs Ecclesiarchy

Guilliman vs Lords of Terra - Imperium Secundus + Emperor Sanguinius plot

Ecclesiarchy in itself once it becomes common knowledge that the Imperial Creed is based on heretical text. This is not a new one either. Apocalypse had the subplot, that the scripture the particular planet put out was based on the word sof a Word Bearer dreadnought...

Edited June 15, 2021 by Vanger

[Taliesin]

Definitely is great. Carries the trilogy to its end suitably, furthers Guilliman's characterization, and bridges a few different works including The Great Work and Devastation of Baal. Loved the crap out of it. Couldn't put it down after I got it until I finished it.

 

Are Dante and the Blood Angels in this book?

[Ishagu]

 

 

Definitely is great. Carries the trilogy to its end suitably, furthers Guilliman's characterization, and bridges a few different works including The Great Work and Devastation of Baal. Loved the crap out of it. Couldn't put it down after I got it until I finished it.

Are Dante and the Blood Angels in this book?

Nope

[DarkChaplain]

 

Definitely is great. Carries the trilogy to its end suitably, furthers Guilliman's characterization, and bridges a few different works including The Great Work and Devastation of Baal. Loved the crap out of it. Couldn't put it down after I got it until I finished it.

 

Are Dante and the Blood Angels in this book?

 

 

Only in so far as that Guilliman's plan going forward is to push into Imperium Nihilus, which will result in the Primaris delivery to Baal, which at this point is still isolated by the warp storm.

[godking]

 

Theory re: potential schisms

 

Between Guilliman reading the Lectitio at the end of Plague War, and encountering / recalling suppressed memories of the Emperor here, seeing what monstrosity his soul has become while rotting on the throne for ten millennia (in the Draco-style), and the Ecclesiarchy deciding to reinstate their own militia/military in the audio box set involving Greyfax and Celestine, along with already existing disgruntlement between pragmatic rationalist Guilliman vs the Imperial Creed, including his frequent denials of his father's godhood and his own demigod status, that others revere him as, we have a powder keg waiting to explode.

 

With Guilliman not happy about his father's state of mind, to call it that, and increasingly resenting him for his ulterior plans and treatment as a despised tool, he might end up on a spiritual collision course with the Ecclesiarchy one way or another. So far he's been playing along as much as he reasonably had to, to keep things orderly. But now he knows both the scripture - which so far he hadn't read for himself, despite punishing Lorgar for it at the Emperor's behest during the Great Crusade - and has seen the real thing on the Throne, both physically and psychically. He's not happy with it, and apprehensive of the Emperor actually returning if this is what he's become.

 

On the flipside, we have the Ecclesiarchy militarizing beyond the decrees of having "no men at arms", which was the reason to have the Sororitas. Technically, the Ecclesiarch Decius XXIII did repeal the Decree Passive - even though he was executed right after. We have yet to really see the full impact of that.

 

The pieces are on the board already.

 

There are multiple fault lines which could rupture in a schism:

Guilliman vs Ecclesiarchy

Guilliman vs Lords of Terra - Imperium Secundus + Emperor Sanguinius plot

Ecclesiarchy in itself once it becomes common knowledge that the Imperial Creed is based on heretical text. This is not a new one either. Apocalypse had the subplot, that the scripture the particular planet put out was based on the word sof a Word Bearer dreadnought...

Why did Guilliman even keep a record of Imperium Secundus in the library a ridiculous oversight that Guilliman should not have made

[DarkChaplain]

Wasn't there some story that actually talked about him writing that record and locking it away as a reminder?

 

Edit: Yep, in Dark Imperium itself, so within this trilogy.

 

 

‘There is an element of hypocrisy to your activities, my lord. You ordered the doors to the Library of Ptolemy on Macragge barred, pronouncing the time of learning done, but here you devote yourself to the pursuit of history.’

Guilliman made a reasonable face, conceding the point. ‘I stand by my actions. One day those doors will be unbarred. What I did there was symbolic. Who even in my own realm read and understood what the library contained? I sealed the doors not against the truth, but against the superstition that has taken truth’s place.’

Guilliman did not lie often but he did then. There was one book in the Library of Ptolemy that told a history he would rather no one read. He could not afford the shadow of the Imperium Secundus to hang over his latest ventures.

‘All eyes must be on the future,’ Guilliman continued. ‘One version of the past is in that library, another is in the heads of men. The closing of the doors was symbolic, but powerful. It seals both versions of the future away for now. I prepare, Mathieu. When this crisis is passed, perhaps something of my father’s dream might be reborn, though we have a long way to climb. If we are lucky, when I reopen the doors to the Library of Ptolemy, those who enter in might finally understand what they read.’ He frowned a little before going on. ‘I will be honest with you. I will make you privy to matters I do not readily share, so listen. I see that in the period following the Great Heresy War I was too focused upon the reformation of the Legions, trusting to the council my father created to govern wisely. My optimism was misguided. This terrible future I find myself in is my fault as much as anyone else’s. Now I have concluded my revisions of the Codex Astartes, I have begun work upon a new book. This book I shall call the Codex Imperialis. In it I shall set down the principles of good governance long denied our species. Compiling an accurate history is only the start of the process.’

 

So he wrote a book during the Scouring, presumably, probably as a sort of confession for those who would come after - and he was really struggling with IS being a thing at all, to the point of it being thematized in Ruinstorm, various short stories and now Dark Imperium too - but after his return, he couldn't afford the risk of anybody finding it while he was still reforming the Imperium and voices against him were loud among the High Lords, Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition and Mars.

 

I'd think he still stands by his confessional history - he just doesn't consider right there and then the time to let it be discovered.

 

He was probably surprised to find the library still standing, at any rate, considering it was heavily damaged in millennia past.

Edited June 15, 2021 by DarkChaplain

[cretacianborn]

I finished Godblight last night.

 

I mostly enjoyed it but kind of had to force myself through some parts which was a little disappointing as I had high hopes for it and managed to avoid all spoilers. Mostly the more Nurgle-based chapters. They just didn't grab me as much. On the whole I guess it wraps up the series and allows Dawn of Fire and future novels set post-rift to explore the plot points opened up here. Interesting times for the lore! Aching to see what's happening in Imperium Nihilus with Dante and Seth though.

 

7/10 for me.

 

I did really like the Fabian and Racej Lucerne dynamic. Something about a relentlessly cheerful and optimistic Black Templar that amuses me. I hope we get more of these two in the Dawn of Fire series.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

Just finished this, definitely dragged in parts. Maybe it's just me but I don't really get anything from reading people shooting loads of demons so yes agree the Chaos sections didn't really do anything for me.

 

The last 20% or so is decent it just took too long to get there

[Lucerne]

Someone wrote a "fan" reaction to That Scene in the finale of godblight which I think sums the problems with it up quite nicely:

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/o9mpaz/excerpt_godblight_the_controversial_scene/h3csf0i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

 

 

If anything their "reinterpretation" is being more charitable- it doesn't even have Guilliman cowering in a corner!

 

 

Imagine Lucius waltzing up to the Golden Throne. He gets killed by a named custodian wielding, lets say, the Apollonian spear. Lucius falls and dies. The custodian mocks him, foolish thrall of a petty god.

Then nauseating light grows, violet radiance bursts from Lucius' body and that of his killer. Gentle, seductive laughter rings out from every surface.

The gilded custodian armor blackens rapidly: faces bulge out of his armor. The lash of torment erupts from one arm, the blade of laer flies into his other hand.

"Poor dying emperor. You seek to supress excess, but you only succeed in delighting me. I will not kill you today, but soon I will come for your soul."

The custodian finishes his transition. Lucius the Eternal yet stands, then vanishes, drawn away by the infinite might of the Dark Prince. Before he leaves, he bellows a war cry of fury and mocking pride. The Golden Throne etupts in nauseating sparks of purple and black: bruise-colored radiance shines as millenia old, irreparable technology is ruined forever.

And all that remains is the laughter of thirsting gods.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Lucerne

[Scribe]

LOL. Simply l.o.l.

 

If that's directly from the book, the reddit link, then clearly some IP folks have lost the :cussing plot.

 

Edit x 2: I will say there are a few posts trying to point out the mitigation of what at first glance is completely out of touch so perhaps it's not that bad.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Scribe

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Sure, as long as you ignore the fact that Iax was getting dragged into the Garden (or the Garden was getting dragged into Iax, probably both tbh) because of what Ku'Gath and Mortarion were doing, and that the comparison b/w Lucius and the Emperor is hilariously idiotic to begin with, and the fact that ... a Custodian turning into Lucius has nothing really to do with the scene that did happen? But don't let that get in the way of the salt-mobile.

Pretty much all of the top 100 posts in that thread are better than...whatever that is.

[Ishagu]

What are people angry about again? I'm not clicking that link.

 

Lol are the frothing-at-the-mouth, anti-Ultramarine edge-lords upset about something?

 

Or do people have issues with the lore implications, even though nothing truly crazy in terms of what is possible in-universe actually takes place?

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

What are people angry about again? I'm not clicking that link.

 

Lol are the frothing-at-the-mouth, anti Ultramarine Edge lords upset about something?

 

Or people have issues with the lore implications, even though nothing truly crazy in terms of what is possible in the universe takes place?

Nah, in reading (or trying, god I hate reddit) some other posts there must of it can be hand waved or answered.

 

Couldn't care less about the ultras/anti ultras, that's just residual Ward fallout.

 

Mostly I'm interested in how they push the Emperor as a Warp Entity thing that they are clearly going for, and how much they are willing to damage the setting as part of that development.

 

The fact the garden was encroaching on real space provides context.

 

The fact the sword is a conduit, provides context.

 

The fact Primarchs are already warp touched, provides context.

 

What they do with the Emperor will be what matters.

 

Pushing some stupid Imperial Ascendant plot line however, would be a particularly egregious mistake.

[Ishagu]

How are they damaging the setting?

 

It's a universe where red cars actually go faster because the Orks think they do.

 

The whole point of the book is about the power of belief and how it can influence both the warp and the material universe.

 

I can see how you might miss the finer points if you haven't actually read it. It's wrong to criticise a novel one hasn't read if you're basing your complaint on misunderstood, 2nd hand information.

 

It's perfectly fine not to like the book, the story or the characters involved.

But there is no justification to attack it for imagined reasons that it might have compromised the setting - It certainly has not.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

I'll take your word for it.

 

There hasn't been a book yet that has really deviated from the settings fundamental truths, and frankly I don't enjoy Haley's work enough to pay to find that out after I bought his last one.

[Lucerne]

Sure, as long as you ignore the fact that Iax was getting dragged into the Garden (or the Garden was getting dragged into Iax, probably both tbh) because of what Ku'Gath and Mortarion were doing, and that the comparison b/w Lucius and the Emperor is hilariously idiotic to begin with, and the fact that ... a Custodian turning into Lucius has nothing really to do with the scene that did happen? But don't let that get in the way of the salt-mobile.

Pretty much all of the top 100 posts in that thread are better than...whatever that is.

Excuses. It doesn't matter if the two are merging, we can handwave the stupidity just as easily with "Oh, the Emperor brought Slaanesh there to harm the god..." and then set up the same comedy routine.

 

You're so right. Having Lucius give a bad speech and cripple the Throne is idiotic. Almost as idiotic as having Guilliman give a worse speech and permanently damage the Garden while ignoring the whole faction's premise. It's all equally out of character, disrespectful to the designated jobber, and just pushing a silly narrative that pretty much uses the whole point of 40k for fertilizer and may as well be two action figures being mashed together with all the subtlety and storytelling capacity of a bored toddler.

 

Having actually endured the rest of the novel to be slapped in the face by that, it's still a bad scene in a bad plot and context makes it worse.

 

But hey, someone with Ish's notoriously discerning taste and good judgment endorsing it is such a good sign for the book's quality.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Lucerne

[Ishagu]

What are you even blabbering about? Lol

 

Nothing in the novel is outside the bounds of what is possible in the setting.

 

You're quoting fanfiction for what purpose again?

Edited June 29, 2021 by Ishagu

[Lucerne]

What are you even blabbering about? Lol

 

Nothing in the novel is outside the bounds of what is possible in the setting.

 

You're quoting fanfiction for what purpose again?

Don't worry your head about it. I know it's not really in your comfort zone to consider that GW might have bungled something.

 

As for the "possible", it's equally poSsiBle for Robute Guilliman to be turned into a Squig.

 

Don't try and pull the "well technically it's possible if you squint and ignore characterization, precedent, and sense..." card to defend this drek.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Lucerne

[Ishagu]

If Draigo can walk around the warp fighting the minions of the Chaos Gods, I'm pretty sure the Emperor can cause some damage to Nurgle's realm.

 

Just because you don't like something, it doesn't mean you can use flawed logic to question it's validity as plausible lore.

 

And the funny thing is, you haven't even read the book.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ishagu

[Lucerne]

If Draigo can walk around the warp fighting the minions of the Chaos Gods, I'm pretty sure the Emperor can cause some damage to Nurgle's realm.

 

Just because you don't like something, it doesn't mean you can use flawed logic to question it's validity as plausible lore.

 

And the funny thing is, you haven't even read the book you're criticising lol

 

Draigo is explicitly powerless to cause lasting change. Nice try, though. For you, that was almost passingly competent. And still badly written, characterized, and cackhanded regardless.

 

The really funny thing is? I have read through every last page of this garbage. This scene is simply the worst part of a novel that treats daemons as people in funny hats, relies on a series of idiot balls to get from scene to scene, fails to set up any drama or tension, and ends with this comedy routine.

[Ishagu]

Daemons are petty, power-hungry, fallible, jealous, etc

 

The followers of Nurgle in particular can be funny, grumpy, dull minded, etc. Some are also perfectly competent - as we saw with Rottigus.

Are you not familiar with the lore?

 

As for what happens in the Warp - it's a realm of infinite possibilities - the events in the book are perfectly within reason.

 

But, of course, you are free not to like it.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ishagu

[Lucerne]

Daemons are petty, Power hungry, fallible, jealous, etc

 

The followers or Nurgle in particular can be funny, dull minded, etc. Some are also perfectly competent.

 

Are you not familiar with the lore?

 

As for what happens in the Warp - it's a realm of infinite possibilities. What happened in the book is perfectly within the realm of what can happen.

 

You don't have to like it.

Daemons aren't humans in funny hats. They're conglomerations of emotion. You don't have any grounds to say others are uNfAMiLAr with lore.

 

"Infinite possibilities" that all boil down to human-sounding and human-acting stock characters with all the subtlety of a particularly amateur elementary school stage play. Yeah, no.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Lucerne