Krieg odd rules

[bristlybadger]

Just thought I'd strike up a conversation about the Krieg options across the Compendium and Legends.

in no particular order:

 

-The mole launcher, having never been very cost effective, is now a blast weapon at S5 Ap-1. It used to hit vehicles on rear or side armour back in 7th. Seems odd to give it somewhat of an anti-personnel profile now - it's not what I'd assume, just looking at the model.

 

-No weapon options for Engineer Watchmaster. Chalk that one up to ignoring the weapons upgrade kit (this is a recurring theme...)

 

-Death Rider Command Squadron has +1A for no increase in cost? Even not taking up a force org slot with a HQ..

.

-Death Riders all have 4+ WS (even veterans!) - for a melee unit! Rather pay more points for WS3+

 

-We have ultra cheap Lascannon sponsons added as a legends options for Leman Russes for absolutely no discernible reason. Never was a model for this, never had the option for it before, never mentioned as something in lore. Just absolutely random, specifically written option.

 

-Krieg Rider Commissar can take a plethora of odd dual pistol options, despite being based on a very specific event exclusive model what came with a single laspistol or binoculars and a modelled sheathed sword. Also costs 25pts vs any other Commissar costing more, despite being better in almost every way, statwise.

 

-Quartermaster was released as Troop and costing something like 5pts + 2x 5pts servitors. Rather than just fixing the points cost like a normal unit, they increased the cost of his laspistol to 25pts >_<

 

-Marshal Venner got released with a special rule that almost exactly mirrored our new Doctrine before he got fixed to at least make one unit immune to morale per turn (still useless and flavourless, but at least not redundant).

 

I wonder if we had something very different before release and someone just went in and did a last-minute edit for some reason. I remember seeing the designer of the new rules online somewhere mentioning how happy he was and excited for us for them to get released about 6+ months before they were. Can't imagine anyone being excited about what Krieg ended up with, tbh.

 

Bit of a vent, hopefully someone finds it conducive to some kind of conversation.

[The Pounder]

I know exactly where you’re coming from.

 

Our Regimental Doctrine is pretty lame to be fair. I would’ve preferred the old one where we were a nightmare to shift with shooting alone.

 

I’m lucky in that I started my latest Krieg force just before the Compendium was released so I’m building using the updated rules.

 

I must admit I’ve been waiting for a rules update that gives Deathriders WS3+

So far it hasn’t come. I mean WS4+ BS3+ golly gee!?! They’re supposed to be a melee option.

I know you can argue that they’re unbelievably hard to kill but at what price?

 

I will say I’m in it for the models not how powerful the army is (my second army is Tyranids!!!) but I think GW and FW can do better by us Krieg players.

 

I will keep the faith and continue following the Cult of Sacrifice but here’s hoping the rules will improve (or at least make some sense!)

[bristlybadger]

Yes, the doctrine is just ridiculously weak. On top of that, it is not a very inspiring implementation of a "last stand" action either. HALF a sword-swipe from a character on death is fantastically poor.

 

Seems they dont intend to change the Deathriders - it's been a long, long while. Just seems like such a strange decision. 10% chance they FAQ-update when we get our codex, hah.

Yes, each death rider having half a hit with the lance on charge is just depressing... If they could fall back and charge that would fix that problem somewhat.

 

Same, I got 3-4k just waiting for paint - I'll never quit the army, but I'll keep grumbling about it until we get rules that makes sense, haha.

[jarms48]

I don't see the point of even keeping the DKOK Martial datasheet at this point. They're just a Company Commander with a 4+ save and a power sword, for the same points cost... 

 

Death Riders should probably have the 5+++ removed and just replaced with a more simplistic -1 damage, but give them 2 Attacks, WS and BS 3+. They're 15 points a model and that 5+++ is pretty insane.  

 

The Death Rider Command Squad is pretty pointless at the moment. I think they should just be removed after the changes to the above, unless they're given the Bodyguard keyword and can soak up wounds from the Death Rider Commander.

[sairence]

I'm pretty sure the current setup for DK is here to stay for a while, considering how long it took to get a FW update last time.

 

And while there is loads that could be improved, adding in a DK detachment for a larger Guard force is an amazing force multiplier. We have a fast, durable unit now, outside the vehicle slots..it's a role we didn't have before. Bullgryns are tough, but slow, Rough Riders were fast but fragile. I wish they'd hit harder, but for their cost I'm happy with what they got. Yes, the 5+++ is great, but I don't think it's too much as they only have a 4+ otherwise.

 

And if you compare them with say the AdMech horses it balances out I think. More or less same prices, one is more durable, the other can scout and snipe...it's alright.

[Warhead01]

I don't see the point of even keeping the DKOK Martial datasheet at this point. They're just a Company Commander with a 4+ save and a power sword, for the same points cost... 

 

Death Riders should probably have the 5+++ removed and just replaced with a more simplistic -1 damage, but give them 2 Attacks, WS and BS 3+. They're 15 points a model and that 5+++ is pretty insane.  

 

The Death Rider Command Squad is pretty pointless at the moment. I think they should just be removed after the changes to the above, unless they're given the Bodyguard keyword and can soak up wounds from the Death Rider Commander.

The Field Martial also has a Momento Morie. -  Momento Mori: Whenever the bearer of the Momento Mori suffers wounds from a weapon which does multiple wounds, the roll is always a 1.

 

On balance I don't know if I agree about the 5++ being an issue one way of the other I haven't heard of people fielding units larger than 5 models and those aren't all that impressive in small units. 2 wounds T4 and a 4+ save stressed by heavy bolters easily enough. 

I could see an improvement to the Death Riders command but expect nothing.  What all the Death Riders and command need is access to a special weapon or a demo charge. I don't know that having a body guard keyword rule would be worth while. Again these aren't Ogryn and can't take the same beating even half that beating is probably too much/ the real reason to field them it to unlock the outflank for them and all the other Death Rider units. Briefly I thought they had 3 attacks each but I don't think I am remembering that correctly. 

As far as maintaining data sheets, does it matter? we have the IA Compendium book and who knows how long that will be current could be forgotten about for a few years. 

Depending on what GW decided it wants to do with FW as far as production and publications.  

But I am against deleting anything as I for one do not like having options taken away from me that other, more competitive, players will likely just not use as they would be regarded as sub optimal at best or pointless at worst. So why should it be an issue if the codex options are superior.  

[sairence]

I think you might be looking at some old rules.

 

They are T4, 4+, 5+++ with 3 wounds. All Death Rider units have outflank built into the datasheet now

 

And I promise you that people are taking 2-3 full units to run up and bodyblock turn 1, as they are excellent at that job. The combo of 5+++ and 3W makes them nasty, the outflank isn't actually that relevant most of the time. Most multidamage weapons out there are either 2D or D3D and those profiles will struggle to take down more than a single horse per volley and you need to kill 10 of them to clear the way.

 

The reason their points cost is fine is because their damage output is pretty pitiful and they will rarely kill much more than a bit of chaff. But dear god do they hold the line...

Edited May 18, 2021 by sairence

[jarms48]

 

I don't see the point of even keeping the DKOK Martial datasheet at this point. They're just a Company Commander with a 4+ save and a power sword, for the same points cost... 

 

Death Riders should probably have the 5+++ removed and just replaced with a more simplistic -1 damage, but give them 2 Attacks, WS and BS 3+. They're 15 points a model and that 5+++ is pretty insane.  

 

The Death Rider Command Squad is pretty pointless at the moment. I think they should just be removed after the changes to the above, unless they're given the Bodyguard keyword and can soak up wounds from the Death Rider Commander.

 

The Field Martial also has a Momento Morie. -  Momento Mori: Whenever the bearer of the Momento Mori suffers wounds from a weapon which does multiple wounds, the roll is always a 1.

On balance I don't know if I agree about the 5++ being an issue one way of the other I haven't heard of people fielding units larger than 5 models and those aren't all that impressive in small units. 2 wounds T4 and a 4+ save stressed by heavy bolters easily enough. 

I could see an improvement to the Death Riders command but expect nothing.  What all the Death Riders and command need is access to a special weapon or a demo charge. I don't know that having a body guard keyword rule would be worth while. Again these aren't Ogryn and can't take the same beating even half that beating is probably too much/ the real reason to field them it to unlock the outflank for them and all the other Death Rider units. Briefly I thought they had 3 attacks each but I don't think I am remembering that correctly. 

As far as maintaining data sheets, does it matter? we have the IA Compendium book and who knows how long that will be current could be forgotten about for a few years. 

Depending on what GW decided it wants to do with FW as far as production and publications.  

But I am against deleting anything as I for one do not like having options taken away from me that other, more competitive, players will likely just not use as they would be regarded as sub optimal at best or pointless at worst. So why should it be an issue if the codex options are superior.

A lot of this is incorrect. Momento Morie don’t even exist anymore, unless you’re referring to Legends which aren’t used anymore.

 

I’ve seen so many lists with 44 Death Riders. They’re incredibly efficient and literally the most durable unit we have. If you’re only seeing small units, that’s an issue with cost. Actual monetary cost. They’re also 3 wounds not 2.

 

So they cost as much as 3 Guardsmen but get the same number of wounds, a 4+ and a 5+++. I’ve had a unit of these tie up units for the entire game.

[Warhead01]

So, what had happened was... I opened the wrong file, twice.  
Good catch. Yep, I defiantly opened the wrong files. Looking at it now, and it is a head scratcher as to why they bothered to include the martial at all. 
Funny, looks like Death Riders were actually better in the previous book, more attacks. weird. 

I do have to ask though, when you say Legends aren't used any more, not used by who?

I still have to use Legends, that's where they put my Death Rider Commissar. I don't see another option to field him.

[jarms48]

So, what had happened was... I opened the wrong file, twice.  

Good catch. Yep, I defiantly opened the wrong files. Looking at it now, and it is a head scratcher as to why they bothered to include the martial at all. 

Funny, looks like Death Riders were actually better in the previous book, more attacks. weird. 

 

I do have to ask though, when you say Legends aren't used any more, not used by who?

I still have to use Legends, that's where they put my Death Rider Commissar. I don't see another option to field him.

 

Most GW stores and tournaments do not allow Legends. Legend units can only be taken in narrative, friendly games, or with opponents permission. 

 

Take the Death Rider Commissar for example. They're 25 points, the same as a regular Commissar. They have a 10 inch move, T4, 4 wounds, a 4+ save, and a 5++. Pretty crazy for something with the same points cost. Also Flanking Manoeuvres but you wouldn't really use them for that.

Edited May 18, 2021 by jarms48

[Warhead01]

 

So, what had happened was... I opened the wrong file, twice.  

Good catch. Yep, I defiantly opened the wrong files. Looking at it now, and it is a head scratcher as to why they bothered to include the martial at all. 

Funny, looks like Death Riders were actually better in the previous book, more attacks. weird. 

 

I do have to ask though, when you say Legends aren't used any more, not used by who?

I still have to use Legends, that's where they put my Death Rider Commissar. I don't see another option to field him.

 

Most GW stores and tournaments do not allow Legends. Legend units can only be taken in narrative, friendly games, or with opponents permission. 

 

Take the Death Rider Commissar for example. They're 25 points, the same as a regular Commissar. They have a 10 inch move, T4, 4 wounds, a 4+ save, and a 5++. Pretty crazy for something with the same points cost. Also Flanking Manoeuvres but you wouldn't really use them for that.

 

I see. thank you. 

Not an issue for me.  I don't know how I would approach the points cost for the DR Commissar. I don't see a problem with it but then I build my collection and my lists around trash troops. I play sub optimal armies because I fine I enjoy the struggle more.  I have zero interest in competitive play or tournaments.  Thank you for the replies I am clearly out of my depths with 9th and see 40K very very differently than you do. 

I just dislike loosing units and loosing options.  I build my collection how I envision them and then go look at points and try to build an army. This was much less of a problem a few years ago before 9th.  Heck before 8th for that matter.