What makes a competitive Ultramarines army?

[Captain Idaho]

This is a fairly complicated topic than it appears I feel and something I've noticed on the forum that warrants a deeper discussion.

 

Ultramarines without a doubt do well as mid range, mid table focus as they can bring Bolter Discipline to bear consistently with their army wide bonus in Tactical Doctrine. Counting as stationary means double bolter shots at above half range for bolter rapid fire units and our heavy weapons won't get a penalty to moving and shooting.

 

This is great. So making a competitive army is all about units that emphasise this, right?

 

Well I'm not so sure. Or more accurately, I feel being type cast in that role means you'll often end up with a paper rock scissors army list.

 

Don't get me wrong, take full advantage of some units that love midrange combat and clustering around Seal of Oath, but do something more with your list.

 

What I'm going to say here is controversial but I think is the correct way to play for us sons of Ultramar; build an army list that has units which don't traditionally benefit as midrange Ultramarines specialists.

 

Those Vanguard Veterans in Ultramarines armies will never be as good as Blood Angels or White Scars, sure. Does that mean you can't launch an assault and cause problems for opponents? Of course not! Being hit by 30+ Lightning Claw attacks on a fast moving platform with Storn Shields is going to hurt most enemies regardless of getting a +1 to wound from being a Blood Angel.

 

It's like saying the unit has a killing power rating of 6 with Ultramarines and 8 with Blood Angels, but the enemy is killed at killing power 5 anyway. The unit will do the trick.

 

And I feel that Ultramarines can better as we aren't relying on this pure assault force to get the job done but supporting our attack with our midrange specialists, who happen to be Troops a lot of the time.

 

For this reason, I love my Terminator squads. They are melee fighters with decent survivability plus they get plenty of bolter shots and can do a lot of damage. They're not Dark Angels, but doesn't mean they won't get the job done.

 

I believe Ultramarines should play the objective game, which means holding ground and board control, having a solid mid table presence and capacity to attack the opponent's objectives. That is a very traditional Ultramarines style army, combined arms and varied.

 

Of course, many players like to emphasise their shooting assets to the exclusion of these other facets and if it works for them that's great. But I do believe in another way, which will perhaps do us well against new Codex books that might otherwise overwhelm us as a hard counter.

 

With Sisters getting a new Codex soon I very much suspect we will see them as the uber midfield army and without an alternative plan we'll just be ceding games to "bad match ups" without a chance in winning.

 

What do other folk think on this issue? Let's get a discussion going. How much is enough variance and what's the minimum amount of midrange "Ultramarines" style we need?

[Lykke]

John Lennon - Cool Place GT

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++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [102 PL, 2,000pts, 6CP] ++

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**Chapter Selection**: Master Artisans, Ultramarines Successor, Whirlwind of Rage

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+ Stratagems +

Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics

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Servitors [2 PL, 30pts]: 4x Servo-arm

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+ HQ +

Chapter Master with Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle [8 PL, 145pts, -1CP]: Adept of the Codex, Chapter Command: Chapter Master, Seal of Oath, Storm of Fire, Stratagem: Exemplar of the Chapter, Warlord

 

Primaris Librarian [6 PL, 120pts, -1CP]: 2) Might of Heroes, 2) Scryer's Gaze, 3) Null Zone (Aura), 6) Psychic Fortress (Aura), Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Psychic Mastery, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Tome of Malcador

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Primaris Techmarine [5 PL, 100pts, -1CP]: Chapter Command: Master of the Forge, Rites of War, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

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+ Troops +

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts]
. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant

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Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle
. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle
. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant

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+ Elites +

Invictor Tactical Warsuit [8 PL, 160pts]: Twin ironhail autocannon

Invictor Tactical Warsuit [8 PL, 160pts]: Twin ironhail autocannon

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Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

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Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin

Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin

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+ Fast Attack +

Suppressor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]
. 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades
. Suppressor Sergeant

Suppressor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]
. 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades
. Suppressor Sergeant

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+ Dedicated Transport +

Land Speeder Storm [3 PL, 55pts]

Land Speeder Storm [3 PL, 55pts]

++ Total: [102 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

Well, this list just got a 5 - 0 - 0 an won a GT

 

So I guess this is the most competitive UM list currently.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Lykke

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve never even heard of this GT. When did it take place? :D

[Cruor Vault]

Thats a really really interesting list John used.  Heavily geared to handle Raiders! 

 

The synergies between the VolCon and the Captain are impressive.

 

Those Contemptors should be able to down a Raider apiece. 

 

Between the Redemptors and the Invictors I bet this list could drop 4-5 Raiders on turn 1.

[Captain Idaho]

Walker/Dreadnought heavy! It's something close to my heart! I love it.

 

I'm seeing a few Storms in lists now. They are cheap and can rush around and take objectives etc.

 

The list has minimal Troops, which is no surprise, instead relying on Dreadnoughts to step up to the plate and provide board control. It's definitely designed to kill Drukhari. I'd be interested to know what opponents it faced and how it fared.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It went 5-0. Only around 35 participants and no big names other than Lennon. It seems too tailored towards Drukhari IMO.

[Lykke]

It went 5-0. Only around 35 participants and no big names other than Lennon. It seems too tailored towards Drukhari IMO.

 

Most definitely, on the art of war channel he played the list against Nick, and they said that it is 100% tailored to the Drew Carry meta!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think as more new codices drop it won’t be that good. Auto cannons are kind of a niche weapon versus raiders.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Prot]

I've seen him play that list a few times. It's important to note that it is absolutely built to take on the Dark Eldar meta. Until recently DE were winning with ridiculous regularity (and still do) but now people are using large portions of their lists specifically for DE. (Contemptors + Supressors for example are primarily in this list for that purpose.)

 

Without gearing a good.. 30%+ of your list to take on DE specifically, you probably won't win that scrap. In the meantime the only army that regularly has a -decent- chance of beating DE out of the box is (pre new codex) AdMech.

 

FYI this is the list I play without contemptors and just 1 squad of Suppressors (I play aggressively so they are always in the list). My current list struggles with Death Guard (but DG is trumped hard by DE right now). 

 

This is a revolving question.... ask it again after Admech hit the streets and the answer probably shifts another 30%. 

[Captain Idaho]

I been thinking of the use of Stalkers again in Ultramarines lists. They are moderate in price and give a lovely T8 platform and decent amounts of shots. They can also use a nice Strategum for extra damage and with the amount of shots could very well net a couple 6s at times.

 

And if someone takes and Aircraft... ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m not going to play any list tuned for dark eldar they are the current flavor.

[Captain Idaho]

I think Stalkers can be useful in general for Marines. They kill Marines with D2 and are a solid vehicle that can hide on an objective.

 

But yes I seldom tailor completely. Rather I select the army based on what it can do and achieve against a multitude of opponents.

[Ishagu]

To get the most out of Ultras you have to make a balanced and varied army. That doesn't mean that the army will be the best, but it will be flexible and varied and those are the intended dynamics for the Chapter.

 

The moment you try to focus on something, or spam a powerful unit, you must realise that another chapter can simply do it better. That's the truth, currently.

 

Hopefully the next supplement can make the Ultras into the Tactical masters that they are in the lore.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think we are master tacticians but it’d be quite nice to be even more so.

[Captain Idaho]

To get the most out of Ultras you have to make a balanced and varied army. That doesn't mean that the army will be the best, but it will be flexible and varied and those are the intended dynamics for the Chapter.

The moment you try to focus on something, or spam a powerful unit, you must realise that another chapter can simply do it better. That's the truth, currently.

Hopefully the next supplement can make the Ultras into the Tactical masters that they are in the lore.

This is a very succinct way of saying what I was trying to say. Thanks for that. ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

The list John used in the Cool Place GT needs a massive asterisk. It is a competitive UM list IN A DRUKHARI DOMINATED SPACE. Units like Invictors and Suppressors have just the right dakka to take on light transport spam while also wounding all their infantry on 2s, and dreads are far less vulnerable to Dark Technomancer nonsense. If you ever played a TCG, I'd call those unit "tech choices", inclusions to counter a specific matchup. Outside of that, I wouldn't rate it as a top tier UM list. It is closer to what IH might field.

 

Here's the thing though. UM can run most units and be reasonably competitive with them. If you dig deep enough you can find many variations of UM lists, depending on the tournament meta in that area, whereas other Chapters usually stick to their respective formulas.

 

Generally speaking though:

- Rapid Redeployment

- Seal of Oath

- CP (either with Adept of the Codex or any HQ combination that can include Scyer's Gaze without sacrificing good spells, so either with Tome of Malcador or by bringing Tigurius + another Lib)

- honourable mention to the UM characters, although right now only Tiggy is really worth it

 

Those three/four elements will probably be used in the vast majority of UM lists. And this is where things start to diverge.

 

I'd say Core is the next major sticking point for UM, given how well UM synergize with them. Troops and Dreads will probably form your main bulk. This is probably another point that the majority of UM lists have in common. The classic setup.

 

What mosts list vary in is what specialists they take. I like 2-3 units of Victrix, as they are very annoying to deal with and can bog down objectives rather well, especially with abilities that give them ObSec. Some lists run Aggressors, some run VV, some run BGV.

Then you have the tech choices like Suppressors, solitary ATVs or whathaveyou, for mobility and countering specific units. Hell, I have seen a list with a Gladiator Reaper and Guilliman do well...

 

See, it really depends on your strategy. That's the issue with discussing general UM lists. You can ask three people and get three different answers. The strength of UM seems to be that they do not have a strict formula to adhere to, other than Core being king. You can run an aggressive push with dakka and transition into melee, you can run a big battle pile with buff stacking, you can run smaller piles and use abilities to buff them all up rather efficiently.

 

Just make sure you can score well. Rites of War or a Chapter Ancient can be very useful in lists that have plenty of non-Troop Core units, for example. Or bring a reasonable amount of Troops.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The problem with running 2-3 squads of VHG is everything is so expensive for SM in general.

[Frater Cornelius]

The problem with running 2-3 squads of VHG is everything is so expensive for SM in general.

When building lists, I have created something akin of "compartments", which are groups of units that compete with each other for spots. This is not necessarily tied to force organization. For example, BGV, Victrix and Aggressors are my "MSU roadblock" units, basically they are there to absorb charges, camp objective and be a general nuisance. In my personal play style, I value that slot fairly high so I usually set aside points for at least 2 Victrix or a unit of 3 Aggressors. Same goes for "low commitment mobility" options like a solitary dakka ATVs or a unit of Suppressors or two. My infantry + dread core is fairly set and it is those small bells and whistles that I tend to adjust.

 

YMMV of course. Plus, if I run a non-Dread list, the above does not apply in exactly the same way. They are options, and options are good to have.

[Captain Idaho]

Had a really good game last night and things that definitely went well (apart from drinking rum) were usage of Terminators for my Ultramarines. Increased survivability of course is a big positive, but the melee prowas alongside AP-1 Storm Bolters is substantial.

 

Fall back and Re-engage is a game winner also, since it gives us the chance to hit back really hard just like the background suggests.

 

I'm just musing on the game but I firmly believe Terminators are back on the menu for Ultramarines in a solid way. They don't give up on Melee yet have a really good shooting attack. Very flexible and that is ideal for Ultramarines armies.