GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[Commisar Necros]

Ill look into it more, but your comment and the one before already sound condescending, so ships sailed there. The people ive heard of getting cease and desists are small etsy shops and people making stl's, not big companies. And what I started talking about is the assumption of all of it being criminal activity, bad for the enviroment, lack of ppe ect, without any proof.

[Marshal Rohr]

Plastic and resin are petroleum byproducts.

[Bryan Blaire]

And what I started talking about is the assumption of all of it being criminal activity, bad for the enviroment, lack of ppe ect, without any proof.

I mean if you are talking about recasting, there’s no additional proof needed there for it being “criminal activity” - it’s an “on the tin” situation, it’s being recast by someone other than the actual producer…

[Arkhanist]

Plastic and resin are petroleum byproducts.

Most, certainly, but there are also bio resins. I use anycubic eco UV resin for 3d printing that is made from soybean oil; significantly less toxic (no VOC or BPA), much less smell when printing, and the same price (in the UK, anyway) as petro resins. Solid waste is also biodegradable. In theory, the printed parts are also locking away net CO2, but I'm not *entirely* convinced of that. There are plant oil based epoxy casting resins too, for use for mould casting. They're not the majority of the market by any means, but they are growing.

 

There are bio plastics too, but AFAIK it's common to still partially mix with petro plastics to maintain the same properties as the petro version. Some 100% bio plastics do exist; the biodegradable plastic bags my food waste goes in for collection are made from cornstarch. Styrene (i.e. GW's plastic) was made from biomass when it was first discovered, but it's cheaper to use petroleum.

[Jukkiz]

talking prices, Terrain been nothing but upscaled every year...

[Ishagu]

I don't really have an issue with GW pricing. I do think some people get jaded, perhaps they get swept up in FOMO, buy models and add them to a growing pile that weighs in the back of their minds, and that adds to their perceived lack of value in adding new models to their collection.

 

The price of the kits means nothing, it's all about what you get from them. I can get dozens of hours of fun from building and painting various units, and many, many more from playing games with them. The hobby is comparatively cheaper than others I could indulge in, and the models are indeed often cheaper than what other companies are offering, as has been mentioned in this topic. Not to mention there is no comparison in terms of quality and aesthetic, GW are simply the best in what they offer.

 

I have noticed some price increases, I felt that getting 10 Heavy Intercessors was almost the same as collection a unit of FW models, but then I loved working on them and the kit is simply brilliant, so I have no regrets.

 

I'm of the opinion that people need to plan their purchases better if they are feeling a price pinch. Don't be afraid of missing out, but if you want something don't hold yourself back either, within reason of course.

[Halandaar]

Your assuming they're going the more difficult route when something that is easier to do with similar quality is out there, and then not actually providing proof of what your claim is. I'm talking about competitors to GW and how that effects their prices and practices. You can scan an object now and 3d print it without all of the labor of molds and such easier and easier now as well.

 

You can easily tell the difference between 3d-printed resin and cast resin, at least at the current tech level of 3d printers, and in my personal experience the overwhelming majority of 1:1 illicit reproductions of GW models I've seen have been cast, not printed. 

 

3d printing is great for the enthusiast and producing single instances of a thing, but for mass production casting remains the more efficient (and cost-effective) method of reproducing the same things over and over again, which is why people in the business of recasting GW product use it rather than 3d printing.

[Arkhanist]

 

Your assuming they're going the more difficult route when something that is easier to do with similar quality is out there, and then not actually providing proof of what your claim is. I'm talking about competitors to GW and how that effects their prices and practices. You can scan an object now and 3d print it without all of the labor of molds and such easier and easier now as well.

 

You can easily tell the difference between 3d-printed resin and cast resin, at least at the current tech level of 3d printers, and in my personal experience the overwhelming majority of 1:1 illicit reproductions of GW models I've seen have been cast, not printed. 

 

3d printing is great for the enthusiast and producing single instances of a thing, but for mass production casting remains the more efficient (and cost-effective) method of reproducing the same things over and over again, which is why people in the business of recasting GW product use it rather than 3d printing.

 

When it comes to forgeworld, yes - 3d printed is higher quality! That is, professional grade SLA machines that use a laser and wax support - pieces done that way from a good STL are genuinely amazing.

 

Current entry-level 50nm DLP resin printers are actually pretty close in detail, and 35nm (often called 4K) pixel printers are at the very least equivalent to well-cast resin. 35nm printers are in the process of moving from mid-range to entry-level home printers. DLP quality has improved very rapidly in only the last couple of years, as LCD screens continue to increase in pixel density rapidly. Yes, you usually need to do some small finishing work on 3d printed models, but then, resin casting gate removal needs to be done too. And forgeworld is notorious for mould lines, mould slip and bubbles to boot.

 

You are absolutely right though, casting scales a lot better than 3d printing for mass production. You can easily run an etsy shop from a larger 4k DLP printer or two (and several part sellers are starting to sell 3d printed parts instead of cast, such as victoria miniatures), but when you need to produce dozens or hundreds of pieces a day, casting is unquestionably more scalable for the moment, as 3d printing does take more time; print time scales directly with height, so larger pieces can take 8 hours plus at high quality - and your printer is tied up until its done. Fine for a hobbyist, as it takes longer to paint than to print, but when you need to produce them by the box load, casting just needs more moulds and more space; and cheap labour helps, of course.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

Whether you see it that way "morally" or not, recasts are counterfeit goods which means people/groups making them are already operating outside the law and having to keep their operations hidden. How much notice do you think those places take of local laws regarding safety, environment, social responsibility, taxation etc?

The other point people seem to miss:

 

If these people are happy to operate outside the law in terms of manufacturing counterfeit goods, how safe is your personal information and payment information when you buy from them?

 

I'm sure recasters would have no issue in selling on your personal data to make some extra money, or potentially even using your card details.

you’re right!

You’re giving them your address and they know you’re into 40k which means you have extra money, so whose to say they won’t break into your house and steal all your stuff? They ARE criminals after all!

/s

[Imren]

 

 

Whether you see it that way "morally" or not, recasts are counterfeit goods which means people/groups making them are already operating outside the law and having to keep their operations hidden. How much notice do you think those places take of local laws regarding safety, environment, social responsibility, taxation etc?

The other point people seem to miss:

 

If these people are happy to operate outside the law in terms of manufacturing counterfeit goods, how safe is your personal information and payment information when you buy from them?

 

I'm sure recasters would have no issue in selling on your personal data to make some extra money, or potentially even using your card details.

you’re right!

You’re giving them your address and they know you’re into 40k which means you have extra money, so whose to say they won’t break into your house and steal all your stuff? They ARE criminals after all!

/s

 

This is ridiculous!

 

Almost all commercially successful recasters live and operate in Russia and China, the payment is done through paypal (although with a workaround, but in the end you make payment to paypal).

 

Why on earth would warhammer players (in western countries) that buy recast have an household that is more worth to rob compared to any average US/EU/AUS middle class household? Or compared to households that can afford to pay full price (like 60 USD for 5x heavy intercessor models)?

 

Also why would any potential robber pay money to address sellers (on darkweb?) to find an address to rob?

 

Statistically (ask any criminologist or police agency), household robbers scout affluent neighborhoods (indiscrimante of particluar address) and analyse the alarm systems, the owners everyday life habits and figure out if they are away on holiday or not in order to decide to rob a particular household (I know this because a friend of mine is a police officer that have investigated house robberies and caught robber's electronic traces/history on phone etc).

Edited August 10, 2021 by Imren

[Marshal Reinhard]

The only thing known about them is that there's at least one set of laws they don't respect

[Ishagu]

Recast selling is a crime and IP theft. Anyone who supports it is pretty pathetic.

[Redcomet]

Recast selling is a crime and IP theft. Anyone who supports it is pretty pathetic.

Totally agree. Makes me wonder how many other laws they are willing to break.

[Gederas]

The only thing known about them is that there's at least one set of laws they don't respect

Because Russia and China actively don't care about any IPs outside their own. For example, there's one very well-known recaster in Russia, whom I can't actually name because of the rules of B&C. GW went after his operation and.... All they caused during that was getting his website de-listed unless you actively search for hit, because Russia's laws only care about Russian IPs. And GW was basically told to take a hike, that's as much as will be done about it.

 

Like, yeah. Legally they abide by IP laws of countries outside their own. But should a company/person go after a citizen of those two countries? They'll be basically told "Sorry, no can do!"

 

Also, anyone amused by the Pot calling the Kettle black in this thread right now between a certain two people?

Edited August 10, 2021 by Gederas

[Xenith]

=][= Seems things are getting heated in here. I've removed uncivil posts and am locking this until people can cool down. =][=

[Xenith]

=][=I'm unlocking this thread again as most of the discussion is civil and on-topic, and it's unfair to punish other frater for the actions of a vocal minority. 

 

We're keeping an eye on this. Be constructive and respectful, and if you just can't with some people, you know where the ignore button is. Further breaches of site rules of conduct will be dealt with more severely =][=

Edited August 13, 2021 by Xenith

[Dark Shepherd]

Credit where its due; new approach to limited edition boxes being not so limited is a help to affordability

[Lord Marshal]

Recast selling is a crime and IP theft. Anyone who supports it is pretty pathetic.

 

My heart doesn't exactly bleed for the multi-million/billion pound profit company and that's coming from someone who's never bought a recast. 

 

If somebody admits to using one I could care less. If they sourced an alternative that saved them a few pennies it's no skin off my back, especially these days. I guess I can see why people who happily buy almost everything GW releases wouldn't want the perceived 'value' of what they buy diminished, but I don't really care.

 

It's not like GW is two guys hand-filling moulds out of their garage barely breaking even. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Lord Marshal

[Joe]

My issue with the practice is it normalises behaviour that can be incredibly harmful to smaller companies who are far more dependent on the income - particularly at a time when the market is fairly volatile. I've stumbled across several people selling recast from Claymore Casting's and the Perry's on Facebook before, and I'd rather not see that become more prevalent "to save people pennies" if it actively leads to those companies going under.

[Lord Marshal]

My issue with the practice is it normalises behaviour that can be incredibly harmful to smaller companies who are far more dependent on the income - particularly at a time when the market is fairly volatile. I've stumbled across several people selling recast from Claymore Casting's and the Perry's on Facebook before, and I'd rather not see that become more prevalent "to save people pennies" if it actively leads to those companies going under.

 

I agree that it's bad when it comes to potentially harming smaller companies/individuals, but I guess the question does come down to how large the actual recasting market for those are. I can't claim to be especially educated on the nitty-gritty of recasting, but I'd be shocked if 99% of recastings on offer aren't Games Workshop products - especially when it comes to them having a large enough audience to actually pull a profit from it. 

[Joe]

I suspect you're spot on the mark in that the market isn't huge at the moment. It is why my concern is that the practice will bleed over more rapidly and we'll start seeing it become more prevalent. 

[Halandaar]

 

My issue with the practice is it normalises behaviour that can be incredibly harmful to smaller companies who are far more dependent on the income - particularly at a time when the market is fairly volatile. I've stumbled across several people selling recast from Claymore Casting's and the Perry's on Facebook before, and I'd rather not see that become more prevalent "to save people pennies" if it actively leads to those companies going under.

 

I agree that it's bad when it comes to potentially harming smaller companies/individuals, but I guess the question does come down to how large the actual recasting market for those are. I can't claim to be especially educated on the nitty-gritty of recasting, but I'd be shocked if 99% of recastings on offer aren't Games Workshop products - especially when it comes to them having a large enough audience to actually pull a profit from it. 

 

I think you start wandering into dangerous territory here where there is only concern about the practice of recasting if it is likely to be damaging to a small company; if this is the attitude then where do we draw that quite arbitrary line between which companies it's acceptable to recast and which it is not?

 

By the same logic do we condemn the robbery of a family-run corner shop but condone the equivalent crime against a national supermarket, simply on the basis that one has more capacity to endure the loss than the other?

[Imren]

Recast selling is a crime and IP theft. Anyone who supports it is pretty pathetic.

Recasting is not theft, it is copyright infringement. Theft is something else.

 

Although recasting is criminal in most jurisdictions, there are few were it flourish domestically and GW legal teams locally fail to take them down in court.

 

I don't think that the recast market cater to those that would buy the original product if the recasts were not available. The recast market would have been barely existing if GW prices were much lower so that middle classes of countries with lower average income could afford them. I suspect the majority of the recast producers operate in Russia and China and cater to the domestic market primarily (with some relatively smaller part of their sales goes internationally), where GW have no chance to expand their business with their prices.

 

So just because people around the world buy recasts doesn't mean they would buy original product if the recast option were not available.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Imren

[Kastor Krieg]

Recasting itself is a crime? Where? :D

Selling recast (counterfeit items) sure, probably is a crime in a lot of places, but not in others. But it's not theft, it's not IP theft and it's not a copyright crime.

Come on, people.

[Arkhanist]

Recasting itself is a crime? Where?

 

Selling recast (counterfeit items) sure, probably is a crime in a lot of places, but not in others. But it's not theft, it's not IP theft and it's not a copyright crime.

 

Come on, people.

Alas, under copyright, duplication is the bit that is forbidden under most Berne Convention countries, whether for personal use or whether selling copies. Obviously calculating legal damages is affected by selling copies, and will determine if it's a civil or criminal breach (most copyright infringement is civil), but the base act of making an identical or near identical copy is reserved to the owner, and there are statutory damages even if you did it entirely for personal use. Copyright law is really harsh, in fact.

 

There are some small carve outs for making personal copies; you don't need permission to time-shift videos in the US or UK, or archive copies of software in the US. But these are very limited, and came about because of specific lawsuits. DRM is also usually illegal to bypass, even if the copying is only for a Fair Use reason, that is not itself copyright infringement.

 

But making a copy of your own DVDs, or ripping CDs to MP3? Illegal. Making a greenstuff recast of a GW model? Yes, it is Illegal. Recasting a small part? Maaaaybe fair use, maybe not. Worth enforcing? Unlikely!

 

One advantage of 3D file sellers is they do usually grant you a personal-use licence to copy, print and remix their designs (but not sell the models unless you buy a commercial licence), so you get more rights as a rule than you do buying a physical model!

Edited August 15, 2021 by Arkhanist