GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[Uprising]

Reading this thread gives me a chuckle, thank you. 

 

Still I just don't get it.  This hobby is high investment in time, money, and space.  The times of younger people getting into the tabletop is getting rarer due to multiple issues.  What is the average age in your groups?  My group of 30 people are in average in there late 30s / early 40s with myself being the youngest (Mid 20S).   

 

At the end of the day, I am for the consumer getting the best product for their money.  The recast market (which is in stock and better then forgeworld atm) and 3D printer gives the choice of interesting models for decent prices.  Not a lot of people buying recast of other miniature companies except GW, I wonder why.  The majority of GW models are just bland space marines as of late.  Even the rules as of late keep getting bloat and cost $100 of dollars (looking at you kill team).  Either way, My group are basically selling off our GW rulesbook and using our models to play stargrave, reign in hell, or onepage rule-set (which are free).  My group having a great time exploring without paying outrageous prices. 

 

Now on the topic of people going to alternate/recast are pathetic, I remember a great quote.  “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win".  Keep laughing a throwing your money down the drain, while we win. 

 

Reason for edit: I forgot to mention my warhound titan cost 80 USD to print.  Going to print 5 more. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Uprising

[Ishagu]

Recasting itself is a crime? Where? :D

 

Selling recast (counterfeit items) sure, probably is a crime in a lot of places, but not in others. But it's not theft, it's not IP theft and it's not a copyright crime.

 

Come on, people.

Yeah it's illegal to make copies of things like movies, models, etc.

 

How is this surprising to you?

[Guest]

Recasting itself is a crime? Where?

 

Selling recast (counterfeit items) sure, probably is a crime in a lot of places, but not in others. But it's not theft, it's not IP theft and it's not a copyright crime.

 

Come on, people.

Please tell me you are joking?

Edited August 15, 2021 by Wolf Guard Einar

[Firedrake Cordova]

Recasting itself is a crime? Where?  Selling recast (counterfeit items) sure, probably is a crime in a lot of places, but not in others. But it's not theft, it's not IP theft and it's not a copyright crime.

 

Come on, people.

Duplicating a protected work without a licence from the rights holder (and where it's not covered by "fair dealing" or other exemptions) for personal use is a civil wrong under the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988, although enforcement in these circumstances is vanishingly rare. Commercial copyright infringement is a criminal offence in England and Wales under sections 107 and 198 of the aforementioned Act. As well as copyright issues, there are also trademark issues ("passing off"), with criminal enforcement of these being enforced by Trading Standards, with the possibility of custodial sentences.

 

Or to put it another way, taping a CD you purchased so you can listen to it on your daily jog is a civil wrong, but is unlikely to attract unwanted attention (in this instance the British Phonographic Association has stated they won't take action). Making 5,000 copies of those tapes and selling them will get you prosecuted by Trading Standards. Being found with the aforementioned 5,000 copies in your garage will also likely see you prosecuted, as your intent was obvious.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Firedrake Cordova

[Doghouse]

 

Still I just don't get it.  This hobby is high investment in time, money, and space.  The times of younger people getting into the tabletop is getting rarer due to multiple issues.  What is the average age in your groups?  My group of 30 people are in average in there late 30s / early 40s with myself being the youngest (Mid 20S).   

 

In my area GW are partnered with the local Scouts and you can even earn your Model Maker Activity badge with Warhammer through the Warhammer Alliance program and they also work with local schools. The drive to get youngsters into the hobby is still very much a thing, you might not see it in gaming clubs because of the age thing and most won't allow young children due to insurance or legal reasons.

[Bung]

Guys, when you talk aboiut law and courts remember this is an internatiomaö forum, what aplies tu US or UK law my not play anywhere else.

 

Especially US law / court decissions arent really interesting for someone living in Europe.

An US court ruleing can be completly ignored in Germany, as they are not acknowledged since the 1970s i think. Based on reciprocity. 

If you want to sue a german in the US, there are really high hurdles the lawyers have to take.

 

I dont know how such stuff will be handled witth the UK und the rest of the EU after Brexit.

 

And to be honest i want to see how GW wants to impede me recasting stuff for my miniatures at my home.

I think if the would bring such stuff to a court here, the judge looking over that case would laugh himself to death.

[Evil Eye]

I have bought recasts before, but only of models that are no longer in production and officials are flat out not available anywhere. Case in point, FW doesn't sell the Centaur anymore, official ones go for stupid money and GW aren't likely to put it into plastic any time soon, so if I want a Centaur I basically don't have a choice. Also not like Forge World is going to be losing a sale on a product they no longer make.

I don't agree with the practice of buying recasts of in-production models just because they're cheaper, and with the large amount of legitimate alternative miniatures on the market nowadays, often going for much cheaper than GW products there really isn't an excuse for it. But if the mini in question has been OOP for years and legit ones go for gigabucks I don't see the harm in buying a recast.

[Gederas]

I have bought recasts before, but only of models that are no longer in production and officials are flat out not available anywhere. Case in point, FW doesn't sell the Centaur anymore, official ones go for stupid money and GW aren't likely to put it into plastic any time soon, so if I want a Centaur I basically don't have a choice. Also not like Forge World is going to be losing a sale on a product they no longer make.

I don't agree with the practice of buying recasts of in-production models just because they're cheaper, and with the large amount of legitimate alternative miniatures on the market nowadays, often going for much cheaper than GW products there really isn't an excuse for it. But if the mini in question has been OOP for years and legit ones go for gigabucks I don't see the harm in buying a recast.

Exactly, you summed up what my opinion is on this situation.

 

One example, the owner of my FLGS got some OOP Forgeworld models (official ones, New in package) of the Ultramarines Herald and the Primus-Medicae in Cataphractii armour and tried to sell them to me (because he knew I like 30k) for their eBay prices at first.

 

I told him, in no kind words, where he could put them for that price.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Gederas

[Arkhanist]

Guys, when you talk aboiut law and courts remember this is an internatiomaö forum, what aplies tu US or UK law my not play anywhere else.

 

Especially US law / court decissions arent really interesting for someone living in Europe.

An US court ruleing can be completly ignored in Germany, as they are not acknowledged since the 1970s i think. Based on reciprocity. 

If you want to sue a german in the US, there are really high hurdles the lawyers have to take.

 

I dont know how such stuff will be handled witth the UK und the rest of the EU after Brexit.

 

And to be honest i want to see how GW wants to impede me recasting stuff for my miniatures at my home.

I think if the would bring such stuff to a court here, the judge looking over that case would laugh himself to death.

 

As a result of the Berne Convention and further updates (and further addons via WIPO), most countries in the world decided to recognise each other's copyrights, and follow the same general standards of copyright. Being copyrighted in one country means basically you're copyrighted in prety much the whole world. Enforcement in particular varies - Russia and China are notoriously lax at enforcing non-national copyrights, but I think you'd be geuinely suprised to learn EU copyright law is very similar to US law; harsher, in some respects, such as moral rights. UK copyright law is deried from EU law, in fact, though as with all member states (former, in the UK's case), the exact implementations of copyright law vary in the nuances. But the EU is a *strong* proponent of ratcheting up copyright law, including the latest Directive in 2019 which was opposed by ordinary citizens, tech companies and human rights advocates, but was popular with big media cartels. Take a guess which side won. (It wasn't the citizens)

 

So GW could absolutely sue you in Germany for a breach of their copyright registered in the UK, and win. Were it to raise to the level of criminal sanctions, they could easy refer it to the german enforcement body. I'm afraid I can't speak German (only some French), but look up the copyright law in Germany and you'll see. Copyright is absolutely written for the big media companies with harsh penalties, and *nobody else*.

 

So it's worth pointing out for those who get really het up about 'not stealing GW's stuff' - we've almost all infringed copyright. It's nearly impossible not to! Making that bluestuff mould of a death guard blight launcher, or marine shoulder pad, or, or, or... so you can make a couple more? Photocopied some pages out of your codex to make a more useful army list? Made that cool GW artwork your PC wallpaper without permission? Yup, you're a law breaker too, same as those chinese recasters or 3d clone printers. A matter of degree, not kind.

 

As you point out though, *enforcement* of such trivial infringement is not worth the cost of filing the paperwork, because the likelyhood of actually making any money (given the actual damages) are unlikely, much outweighing the cost of actually trying to chase it. Same calculation most media companies (not all) have made when it comes to pursuing music piracy, or people downloading films. But the option is still there, and having that 'widely broken, rarely enforced' law on the books with harsh penalties aimed at big commercial infringers that also apply almost as much to trivial or incidental infringement, and you have a recipe for media companies (and GW is absolutely a media company now) that can absolutely make pretty much anyone's life a misery at the snap of their fingers, IF they choose to do so.

 

They don't come for hobbyists making tiny private copies in their home, that's absolutely true (and how would they know, anyway?). But as with the IP terms thread, they DO come for others, and that is a huge threat for anyone who makes a living from a GW adjacent process (such as 3rd party bits sellers, or proxy models, or recently, fan videos) - and copyright is a near global law that backs them up, because it's absolutely biased towards owners, not customers or the general public, and just keeps getting worse.

 

Which is why I do publicise the nature and range of Fair Use/Dealings, because those same media companies like to pretend that there are no exemptions at all; and we absolutely need to fight for and protect those that do, and push back when companies try to push copyright beyond copies into anything that merely has a slight resemblance.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Arkhanist

[Bung]

 

So GW could absolutely sue you in Germany for a breach of their copyright registered in the UK, and win. Were it to raise to the level of criminal sanctions, they could easy refer it to the german enforcement body. I'm afraid I can't speak German (only some French), but look up the copyright law in Germany and you'll see. Copyright is absolutely written for the big media companies with harsh penalties, and *nobody else*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Photocopied some pages out of your codex to make a more useful army list? Made that cool GW artwork your PC wallpaper without permission? 

 

Sure, Germany Courts will respect international copright, and if they want to sue me they have to go to a german court, at least it was that way before Brexit.

To be honbest i dont know what aplies now in regards how its handled now, but i am not lawyer.

European law is that if you want to sue a privat person, you have to go to the court where the person lives.

 

But in Germany there is a highest court ruling about what is called a privat copy.

Thats been a ruling that came up with torrent sites and other stuff with music / film copyright owners.

 

The examples you have there? Perfectly legal under that court ruling as long as you paid for the original.

It would be the same as doing a copy of a CD / DVD for the use in your car. As long as you dont earn money and dont have to bypass the copy protection.

So lets say i would buy a Codex and copy the rules section to convert it into a PDF for my own use on my PC, Smartphone etc. and dont distribute it to anyone else i doubt there would be happen anything to myself in court.

 

And if you go to a german court there will be a  judge looking at your case and its perfectly legal in the procedure that the judge will simply dismiss that case before it even goes to court.

Sure you can try to go up to the next level of court, but they will look at your case and why thy last court dismissed it. 

 

It would be different if i would upload anything to the internet for the use of others, or would sell that recast shoulderpads on an internet plattform or something like that.

 

The point is keeping ot to myself and not earning any money, is still legal in gerrmany.

[Kastor Krieg]

Yeah it's illegal to make copies of things like movies, models, etc.

 

How is this surprising to you?

Duplicating a protected work without a licence from the rights holder (and where it's not covered by "fair dealing" or other exemptions) for personal use is a civil wrong under the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988, although enforcement in these circumstances is vanishingly rare. Commercial copyright infringement is a criminal offence in England and Wales under sections 107 and 198 of the aforementioned Act. As well as copyright issues, there are also trademark issues ("passing off"), with criminal enforcement of these being enforced by Trading Standards, with the possibility of custodial sentences.

 

Or to put it another way, taping a CD you purchased so you can listen to it on your daily jog is a civil wrong, but is unlikely to attract unwanted attention (in this instance the British Phonographic Association has stated they won't take action). Making 5,000 copies of those tapes and selling them will get you prosecuted by Trading Standards. Being found with the aforementioned 5,000 copies in your garage will also likely see you prosecuted, as your intent was obvious.

Apparently I live in a country (Poland) that has it's own "fair use" laws which are much more user friendly and lenient than the standard then?

 

We're legally allowed to copy a book, music or movie (only exception are games / programs) for personal use, we're allowed legally to gift copies to family and actual real life friends, etc., as long as there's no monetary gain from sale / handover, there's no fault, unless the work is created specifically to counterfeit existing trademarks / goods, etc.; Authorship needs to be credited, so on, but making a copy is perfectly legal.

 

The idea that ripping a legal CD for which I've already fully paid to mp3 for convenience or a vinyl to tape or a book to PDF would be illegal (unless I intend to distribute to strangers or for profit) is... mind boggling.

[Arkhanist]

To be fair, most places the examples I picked you would have a good shot at a fair use defence, given the very limited use of the works, and you probably would win should GW be mad enough to actually take it to court. Which is another reason why they don't. But you'd still likely have to go through the expensive process of defending yourself in court first. Similarly, ripping a CD to MP3 is defacto legal in the UK, because the BPI have said they won't prosecute such cases. even though it is a breach of copyright. And in practical terms, such minor copyright infringement are just not worth the effort. The BPI efforts these days are on blocking torrent sites at the ISP level rather than going after individual downloaders.

 

We're legally allowed to copy a book, music or movie (only exception are games / programs) for personal use, we're allowed legally to gift copies to family and actual real life friends, etc., as long as there's no monetary gain from sale / handover, there's no fault, unless the work is created specifically to counterfeit existing trademarks / goods, etc.; Authorship needs to be credited, so on, but making a copy is perfectly legal.
 

 

Yeah, that level of fair use, esecially to distribute to family or friends is definitely broader than most written exemptions to copyright I'm aware of. A number of countries (including Germany and Poland I believe) charge a levy on certain media and hardware; CDRs, blank tapes, DVD burners, USB drives, printers, photocopiers, even PCs and smartphones in some countries, to in effect cover such personal use copies, and compensate owners, thus making the use of such media to make personal copies legal in effect, as the infringement is 'already paid for'. So copying pages of a rulebook is pretty safe in a levy country because your printer/photocopier had a tax on it to cover it pre-emptively; but not copies of a model, as they don't have a levy. (current German products that have a copyright levy on them on page 10 of this pdf)

 

There was an attempt in the UK to implement a private use exemption for personal copies of purchased media in 2014, with a zero rate levy - but various music agencies challenged it in court and got it overturned, so there's no levy, and no broad personal use right.

 

For the school I work for, we pay significant sums every year to get licences by the PRS for incidental use of music. Even though there's an explicit fair use right for education, the amount of exemptions that right does not cover is nuts; same goes for the photocopiers and CLA licences. We're currently navigating the headache of trying to pay for the right to put videos up on youtube fpr events that have incidental music in the background from a student band, because youtube keeps flagging them and our current PRS licence (that covers us to have that music played at the event for parents) doesn't extend to putting it on private share on youtube for the parents that couldn't attend in person; we apparently need an add-on for that. It's exhausting.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Arkhanist

[Claws and Effect]

I've bought recast stuff, and have no qualms with admitting as much. But I tend to restrict my recast purchases to things that have been OOP for so long it is literally impossible to find legit ones or parts from larger kits.

 

Couple examples:

 

I bought a recast Raven Guard Venerable Dreadnought. I've never personally seen a legitimate one for sale anywhere at any price. If I want that model a recast is literally my only option.

 

I also bought some recast Dark Fury Jump packs to use for a Destroyer squad. I already have 15 Dark Furies and really didn't want to pay $150.00 for 15 jump packs when I did not need the rest of the kit.

 

At some point I'm going to get a recast of Corax to convert into the Deadly Prey version of him. I'm doing that because I'm not at all confident in my converting skill and don't want to completely ruin a $110 model. I already have a legit one that is built and painted.

 

And I don't care in the slightest what anyone thinks of that.

 

Edit:

 

Forgot to mention the shoulder pads. 10 Raven Guard mkIV shoulder pads is priced at nearly $100 on eBay when they show up. There is no way I'm paying that much for some shoulder pads. And they are no longer available from Forgeworld. When they were I bought the legit ones.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Claws and Effect

[Special Officer Doofy]

And I don't care in the slightest what anyone thinks of that.

 

As well you shouldn't! I think it's "pretty pathetic" people came in this thread and tried telling others how to spend their hard earned money on a niche overpriced hobby.

[Halandaar]

As well you shouldn't! I think it's "pretty pathetic" people came in this thread and tried telling others how to spend their hard earned money on a niche overpriced hobby.

 

"People" - let's be fair, it was one person.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

As well you shouldn't! I think it's "pretty pathetic" people came in this thread and tried telling others how to spend their hard earned money on a niche overpriced hobby.

"People" - let's be fair, it was one person.

The next comment was a reply echo even.

[Plaguecaster]

I haven't brought a single gamesworkshop model all year well through an actual GW or place that sells it here in New Zealand

It's too damn expensive I'll buy the novels but that's it, if I buy anything it's always through eBay as so I can at least pay what everyone else in the US and UK are paying normally since it's far cheaper there than it is here even with shipping

Of course since I use ebay I have also brought lots of recast models mainly for conversion purposes majority being models they don't even produce anymore like the old chaos FW dreadnoughts

[Scribe]

Reading this thread gives me a chuckle, thank you. 

 

Still I just don't get it.  This hobby is high investment in time, money, and space.  The times of younger people getting into the tabletop is getting rarer due to multiple issues.  What is the average age in your groups?  My group of 30 people are in average in there late 30s / early 40s with myself being the youngest (Mid 20S).   

 

At the end of the day, I am for the consumer getting the best product for their money.  The recast market (which is in stock and better then forgeworld atm) and 3D printer gives the choice of interesting models for decent prices.  Not a lot of people buying recast of other miniature companies except GW, I wonder why.  The majority of GW models are just bland space marines as of late.  Even the rules as of late keep getting bloat and cost $100 of dollars (looking at you kill team).  Either way, My group are basically selling off our GW rulesbook and using our models to play stargrave, reign in hell, or onepage rule-set (which are free).  My group having a great time exploring without paying outrageous prices. 

 

Now on the topic of people going to alternate/recast are pathetic, I remember a great quote.  “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win".  Keep laughing a throwing your money down the drain, while we win. 

 

Reason for edit: I forgot to mention my warhound titan cost 80 USD to print.  Going to print 5 more. 

 

My group was (dead now) almost all over 30 during its peak. My brother actually has gotten back into the hobby completely independently of me, I found out at our family reunion, and hes in his mid/late 20's, but guess what?

 

He's getting a 3d printer, and working with folks in his area.

 

GW absolutely will have a reckoning eventually over this, as many people are being priced out, or simply looking to other solutions for the extremely high prices.

 

I'm in my 40's now, I used to buy armies, every 6 months or so. Its not that I cannot afford it, its that I simply cannot justify the cost for what I get in return, younger people will simply do what is more efficient, and get a printer.

[Helias_Tancred]

GW increase their prices, everyone still buys loads of it so they increase their prices again and everyone still buys loads of it. That will just keep happening. Whenever a new release happens and the price is revealed it’s almost funny how many of the comments follow the pattern of “This release is ridiculously priced, it’s going to to hurt my wallet when I buy 3 of them!”

 

Until they hit the wall where people genuinely can’t/won’t pay the price and it hurts their bottom line they’ll just keep upping prices. The only thing we as a community can do is vote with our wallets which must be what happened to make them drop the price of the app.

 

This guy ^ ... dead on target!  ... GW also has a very loyal core fan base that will push that wall very far ahead. I consider myself a fan, but I hit walls ;)

[MegaVolt87]

 

GW increase their prices, everyone still buys loads of it so they increase their prices again and everyone still buys loads of it. That will just keep happening. Whenever a new release happens and the price is revealed it’s almost funny how many of the comments follow the pattern of “This release is ridiculously priced, it’s going to to hurt my wallet when I buy 3 of them!”

 

Until they hit the wall where people genuinely can’t/won’t pay the price and it hurts their bottom line they’ll just keep upping prices. The only thing we as a community can do is vote with our wallets which must be what happened to make them drop the price of the app.

 

This guy ^ ... dead on target!  ... GW also has a very loyal core fan base that will push that wall very far ahead. I consider myself a fan, but I hit walls

 

 

Its not a viable strategy to kick the can down the road because when sales drop, it will be like stepping off a cliff. Imagine in a future edition, range X gets a big revamp but doesn't sell like blood of the phoenix did as an example, GW would   themselves. Army bundles where X centrepiece(s) work out heavily discounted or free is their only way out along with freezing price increases long term. Or if GW spends real serious money on their entertainment venture which would overtake table top revenues easily if properly managed, eases/ eliminates future upcoming problems facing table top wargaming. 

[Imren]

I suspect that their long term strategy is to cater to younger people because they realise that they are losing the 30-40 years-old that played during the 90's (2nd and 3rd ed) that turns to 3D-printing and recasting.

[Noserenda]

I powerfully doubt 3d printing or recasting has a serious age bias, outside generational wealth or something. I mean the three serious 3d printer fans i know are 20, 35ish and 45ish and got started in roughly that order, though the eldest has definitely got a lot more into it gear wise :D 

[Imren]

I powerfully doubt 3d printing or recasting has a serious age bias, outside generational wealth or something. I mean the three serious 3d printer fans i know are 20, 35ish and 45ish and got started in roughly that order, though the eldest has definitely got a lot more into it gear wise

I believe it has.

 

I "powerfully" doubt that there are many 12-18 yrs old warhammer enthusiasts that busy themselves with 3D printing instead of just buying product from GW. They rather just go and buy a pack of 5 intercessors for 100 USD with their hard earned pocket money or daddys/mommys credit card.

 

The GW esthetics of AoS, 40k, and other games the last 10-15 years shows that they are shifting to a more "family friendly/childish style in their art/models/media etc.

[animal310]

3d printing is still a niche market. I’m not convinced that it will ever be the main way people take part in this hobby unless it becomes really simple, quick, cheap and mess free. It’s none of those things right now, far from it. In fact even paper printers are often still a pain in the backside.

 

3D printing GW models is, as pointed out above, variously illegal. That is a barrier to many, despite what some think.

 

Do I think the new Kill Team box set is a great price, not particularly, but it’s not that bad either. How much would it cost to 3D print equivalent contents?. How long would it take to print all those parts, set up the printer, clean the models off the supports etc. And that would only be the models. 

 

3D printing will play a part as time goes on but I think it will remain a small slice of the pie. It’s also something that GW can take advantage of. They could for example scan in their entire back catalogue and set up an automated print to order.  

 

Time will till but I really don't think 3D printing will become what some on here think it will. 

[Rik Lightstar]

3d printing will hit GW sales to a similar extent to the way Domino's and McDonald's are impacted by domestic kitchens.

 

Some people make their own pizza and burgers, but they're still incredibly successful and long lived brands.

 

Rik