GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[Valkyrion]

Yeah, what Rik said. People are often like this about particular things - metallica being greedy when suing napster means no one will buy Metallica records again, football fans unhappy when the premier league was invented means no one will go on the football again, internet shopping cheaper than supermarkets means no one will go to Asda again, but I can do all those things, sometimes on the same day, 20 years later than the predicted apocalypse. 

[MegaVolt87]

3d printing will hit GW sales to a similar extent to the way Domino's and McDonald's are impacted by domestic kitchens.

 

Some people make their own pizza and burgers, but they're still incredibly successful and long lived brands.

 

Rik

 

Probably one of the best TLDR in regards to 3D printers. Also for the amount of positive press I have yet to find a plain, clear/basic for dummies explanation of the process and detailed tier list of printers to get to fit peoples budgets. I am shocked there is no stickie thread in the PCA forum, same deal with an airbrush thread. Its too hard for the average joe without a proper guidance, so they stay away, drybrushing their vehicles and buying mini's from GW, their LGS and bits from ebay etc. 

[Rik Lightstar]

@Megavolt

 

I'm in exactly the same boat, I have and use both a 3d Printer and an Airbrush, there's a lot of trial and error to getting things done.

 

I'd say the Airbrush is by FAR the better investment, because it gives you a way to get better results in less time. The fact that it's cheaper than using spray paints for undercoating is a bonus, but not an especially bit one, and I'll often still use rattle cans for either small single models or large batches of models as again, it's quicker.

 

One thing that's come up frequently throughout this thread is the "average age of the customer" question. It seems that a lot of us are 30+ with all of the commitments that come with that. I'm not rolling in cash, but I'm fully aware that my time has a greater value than money to me, so any hobby tool has to offer me a solution to my biggest issue of not having enough time for all of my hobby. As yet, a 3d printer doesn't solve that problem for me.

 

Rik

[MegaVolt87]

@Megavolt

 

I'm in exactly the same boat, I have and use both a 3d Printer and an Airbrush, there's a lot of trial and error to getting things done.

 

I'd say the Airbrush is by FAR the better investment, because it gives you a way to get better results in less time. The fact that it's cheaper than using spray paints for undercoating is a bonus, but not an especially bit one, and I'll often still use rattle cans for either small single models or large batches of models as again, it's quicker.

 

One thing that's come up frequently throughout this thread is the "average age of the customer" question. It seems that a lot of us are 30+ with all of the commitments that come with that. I'm not rolling in cash, but I'm fully aware that my time has a greater value than money to me, so any hobby tool has to offer me a solution to my biggest issue of not having enough time for all of my hobby. As yet, a 3d printer doesn't solve that problem for me.

 

Rik

 

For me anyway, I find I get more done in limited time when I get around to hobbying because of age and experience in the hobby vs when I was younger having more time available. I agree with your time/ money considerations etc. 3D printing to me right now appears to be spending dollars to save cents to "send a message" to GW. Electricity, the printer, the printer repairs and maintenance, the material, the "good" 1:1 digital files, might need PPE depending on the resin, will it have residual value if I want to sell it to upgrade to offset the replacement cost. How much will I need to use the printer to offset the costs/ get ahead of them? One army? two? I understand as much if I want to save time its going to cost $$$ for such a 3D printer. Admittedly, I always thought an airbrush a bit of an extravagance as I would only want it for OSL weapons glow + the space it would take up otherwise. 

[Arkhanist]

 

3d printing will hit GW sales to a similar extent to the way Domino's and McDonald's are impacted by domestic kitchens.

 

Some people make their own pizza and burgers, but they're still incredibly successful and long lived brands.

 

Rik

 

Probably one of the best TLDR in regards to 3D printers. Also for the amount of positive press I have yet to find a plain, clear/basic for dummies explanation of the process and detailed tier list of printers to get to fit peoples budgets. I am shocked there is no stickie thread in the PCA forum, same deal with an airbrush thread. Its too hard for the average joe without a proper guidance, so they stay away, drybrushing their vehicles and buying mini's from GW, their LGS and bits from ebay etc. 

 

The forum rules on 3d printing expliciltly rule out such a guide.

 

"In addition to the above, discussion about the basics of CAD and 3D printing should be avoided, instead linking to external sources of information on these subjects."

 

The most appropriate printer for your budget also changes regularly, as the tech is improving very quickly. This is what I used to pick my printer (a mars 2), and I've found their reviews useful.

 

 

3d printing is still a niche market. I’m not convinced that it will ever be the main way people take part in this hobby unless it becomes really simple, quick, cheap and mess free. It’s none of those things right now, far from it. In fact even paper printers are often still a pain in the backside.

 

3D printing GW models is, as pointed out above, variously illegal. That is a barrier to many, despite what some think.

 

Do I think the new Kill Team box set is a great price, not particularly, but it’s not that bad either. How much would it cost to 3D print equivalent contents?. How long would it take to print all those parts, set up the printer, clean the models off the supports etc. And that would only be the models. 

 

3D printing will play a part as time goes on but I think it will remain a small slice of the pie. It’s also something that GW can take advantage of. They could for example scan in their entire back catalogue and set up an automated print to order.  

 

Time will till but I really don't think 3D printing will become what some on here think it will. 

 

Excluding the scenery, printing equivalents of the octarius box minis on a budget resin printer would be about 20 hours total for highest quality, roughly half that for normal quality, across 4 print runs. That's the unattended time while it chunters away. I generally manage 1 print run a day when I'm not rushing (kick off in morning, clean up in evening), so it'd tie up the printer for 4 days total; if I print overnight, I could do it in 2. It would take me a lot longer than that to paint them, so my limiter is definitely not print time. It's not much different than waiting for a parcel delivery - I live in the sticks, so no local FLGS stockist.

 

Conservatively, it takes me about 30 minutes of prep and post-print cleanup per print run - mostly supports removal, akin to clipping models off sprues, so 2 hours of active work on top to get that amount of models ready to paint. Getting models off the sprues, mould lines removed and cleaned up and ready to paint takes time too of course. I find now I've gotten into the swing of it, prepping 3d models from start to finish takes me about the same time as preparing normal plastic minis, maybe a little less.

 

Price wise, excluding scenery; IG-equivalent proxy minis are about 10p each (including supports), ork size around 20p per (chunkier!). So roughly £3.50 of resin, plus a few more pence for the electricity (50W draw when UV light on, but that's only around 15% of the total print time, rest is just bed going up and down). You'd also likely want to buy the designs; so about another £15ish for individually unique nice proxies for both teams, though obviously you can print them more than once if you want to re-use them for e.g. a 40k force.

 

For me with a current-gen entry-level resin printer, it *is* simple, quick(ish) and cheap. Mess free? Yeah, you got me there, I do need disposible gloves, a certain amount of blue paper towels and IPA, but I'm using a non-toxic biodegradable resin, so it's less hassle and a lot less smelly than with an oil-derived resin. And it does take some practise to learn how to use the printer and avoid fails. So I'll agree it's definitely a niche hobby, and likely to remain so. But I think *commercial* 3d printing, ala shapeways, will continue to get better and cheaper scarily fast. Difficulty wise, getting into airbrushing was harder, and about the same cost.

 

Scenery in resin is a bit pricier, because 3d printing cost scales by volume. For that amount of bits, maybe £10 for shanty town/post apoc designs (though there's various free ones of good quality also), and I'd guesstimate £15-20ish of resin. Main issue of a cheap resin printer here is the print bed is a bit small for terrain, so would require multiple print runs to do it in pieces. You can of course buy a much bigger area printer, but then it's twice the price. Terrain is a *lot* more cost-effective to print in bulk on cheap FDM printers, but I don't have one of those, so being brutally honest I'd probably just buy orky laser-cut MDF terrain from kromlech - right tech for the right job. Or use my existing necromunda-style scenery.

 

To be fair, I also tend to customise models before printing; changing weapons, adding different backpacks etc; the same stuff I do when kitbashing, but the options are far greater. I can happily spend many hours doing that, and it's actually the biggest draw for 3d printing for me personally, but it's certainly not mandatory.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Arkhanist

[Noserenda]

Its also a lot easier for a mate with a 3d printer to run stuff off for you for something like the price of the materials (Bugger all as Arkhanist mentions above)  which ive done a few times, and especially if the 3d printer owner wants to do a project, like one of my buddies is offering to print a company of 30k epic marines off for free to any of us willing to give it a go. A huge boon to the kind of person always trying to get their reluctant buddies to try new systems or spin offs :D 

[Schurge]

I'm a thirty year old who is turning to 3D printing not because of price but because a mountain of other reasons. For the most part I'm fine with 40k prices.

 

Reasons I am buying a 3D Printer in no particular order:

 

- GW seems to hate their IP.

- GW seems to want to not be a miniatures company anymore.

- GW won't sell me bits.

- GW only wants me to be creative in ways that gets them money.

- GW publicly disowns people like me.

- GW wants gaping mouth cultists who live to consume, for whom pop-culture is a religion and an identity.

- Other companies have similar problems so I am hesitant to just jump headlong into another corporate owned system.

- Thus miniature agnostic systems are looking really appealing and I've collected quite a few of them even if my miniature collection isn't eclectic enough to really play them.

- Bought Godtear, the game is fun - the miniatures aren't worth the price of free. I can just print my own proxies, and the game is designed in such away that no one else in my game group would need to buy their own stuff (This may make me a dick but I don't care, the models are that bad. They are robbers.) Alot of third party games have that problem which is why I am largely fine with GW prices.

- 3D printing allows me to print things for friends who would love to get into miniwargaming but can't afford it for cost of materials. I can supply bespoke maps and terrain for my whole group.

- 3D printing opens more avenues for creativity and being a "maker."

- Could start my own business if I really get into it.

 

GW is is going to kill Warhammer well before 3D printing makes this kind of thing obsolete. I think my Grey Knights will actually be my first army of proxies outside of the 1000points I already own. I've no plans on starting a new GW army beyond that and it is for all those reasons listed above and not price.

 

I'm more excited about Creature Casters unproven reboot of a niche game then I am anything GW has in the works including World Eaters which I've amassed close to 7k points of. What appeals to me about that game is the quality of the sculpts, the tactical and fast paced gameplay, and the fact that for 500$ I can own everything and my friends won't have to spend a dime. Of course I will encourage them to do so, but first they can try everything out on my dime.

 

Edit: I recognize that I am part of the problem in regards to some of my criticisms.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Schurge

[Valkyrion]

I'm a thirty year old who is turning to 3D printing not because of price but because a mountain of other reasons. For the most part I'm fine with 40k prices.

 

Reasons I am buying a 3D Printer in no particular order:

 

- GW seems to hate their IP.

- GW seems to want to not be a miniatures company anymore.

- GW publicly disowns people like me.

- GW wants gaping mouth cultists who live to consume, for whom pop-culture is a religion and an identity.

 

I don't understand these points.

[Redcomet]

I'm a thirty year old who is turning to 3D printing not because of price but because a mountain of other reasons. For the most part I'm fine with 40k prices.

 

Reasons I am buying a 3D Printer in no particular order:

 

- GW seems to hate their IP.

- GW seems to want to not be a miniatures company anymore.

- GW won't sell me bits.

- GW only wants me to be creative in ways that gets them money.

- GW publicly disowns people like me.

- GW wants gaping mouth cultists who live to consume, for whom pop-culture is a religion and an identity.

- Other companies have similar problems so I am hesitant to just jump headlong into another corporate owned system.

- Thus miniature agnostic systems are looking really appealing and I've collected quite a few of them even if my miniature collection isn't eclectic enough to really play them.

- Bought Godtear, the game is fun - the miniatures aren't worth the price of free. I can just print my own proxies, and the game is designed in such away that no one else in my game group would need to buy their own stuff (This may make me a dick but I don't care, the models are that bad. They are robbers.) Alot of third party games have that problem which is why I am largely fine with GW prices.

- 3D printing allows me to print things for friends who would love to get into miniwargaming but can't afford it for cost of materials. I can supply bespoke maps and terrain for my whole group.

- 3D printing opens more avenues for creativity and being a "maker."

- Could start my own business if I really get into it.

 

GW is is going to kill Warhammer well before 3D printing makes this kind of thing obsolete. I think my Grey Knights will actually be my first army of proxies outside of the 1000points I already own. I've no plans on starting a new GW army beyond that and it is for all those reasons listed above and not price.

 

I'm more excited about Creature Casters unproven reboot of a niche game then I am anything GW has in the works including World Eaters which I've amassed close to 7k points of. What appeals to me about that game is the quality of the sculpts, the tactical and fast paced gameplay, and the fact that for 500$ I can own everything and my friends won't have to spend a dime. Of course I will encourage them to do so, but first they can try everything out on my dime.

 

Edit: I recognize that I am part of the problem in regards to some of my criticisms.

You do whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. If you feel like GW hates you, pursue other games and companies.

 

But some of the things you mention are utter claptrap.

 

For instance the bits thing. They physically can’t sell you bits. Their number of kits are so huge that if they where to split them apart for bits, would require ware house space so large it just isn’t financially feasible.

 

Nick Bayton talked about it on a hobby hangout stream where he got fed up with the whining in chat over issues that the Warhammer community team has NOTHING to do with.

[sarabando]

 

I'm a thirty year old who is turning to 3D printing not because of price but because a mountain of other reasons. For the most part I'm fine with 40k prices.

 

Reasons I am buying a 3D Printer in no particular order:

 

- GW seems to hate their IP.

- GW seems to want to not be a miniatures company anymore.

- GW won't sell me bits.

- GW only wants me to be creative in ways that gets them money.

- GW publicly disowns people like me.

- GW wants gaping mouth cultists who live to consume, for whom pop-culture is a religion and an identity.

- Other companies have similar problems so I am hesitant to just jump headlong into another corporate owned system.

- Thus miniature agnostic systems are looking really appealing and I've collected quite a few of them even if my miniature collection isn't eclectic enough to really play them.

- Bought Godtear, the game is fun - the miniatures aren't worth the price of free. I can just print my own proxies, and the game is designed in such away that no one else in my game group would need to buy their own stuff (This may make me a dick but I don't care, the models are that bad. They are robbers.) Alot of third party games have that problem which is why I am largely fine with GW prices.

- 3D printing allows me to print things for friends who would love to get into miniwargaming but can't afford it for cost of materials. I can supply bespoke maps and terrain for my whole group.

- 3D printing opens more avenues for creativity and being a "maker."

- Could start my own business if I really get into it.

 

GW is is going to kill Warhammer well before 3D printing makes this kind of thing obsolete. I think my Grey Knights will actually be my first army of proxies outside of the 1000points I already own. I've no plans on starting a new GW army beyond that and it is for all those reasons listed above and not price.

 

I'm more excited about Creature Casters unproven reboot of a niche game then I am anything GW has in the works including World Eaters which I've amassed close to 7k points of. What appeals to me about that game is the quality of the sculpts, the tactical and fast paced gameplay, and the fact that for 500$ I can own everything and my friends won't have to spend a dime. Of course I will encourage them to do so, but first they can try everything out on my dime.

 

Edit: I recognize that I am part of the problem in regards to some of my criticisms.

You do whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. If you feel like GW hates you, pursue other games and companies.

 

But some of the things you mention are utter claptrap.

 

For instance the bits thing. They physically can’t sell you bits. Their number of kits are so huge that if they where to split them apart for bits, would require ware house space so large it just isn’t financially feasible.

 

Nick Bayton talked about it on a hobby hangout stream where he got fed up with the whining in chat over issues that the Warhammer community team has NOTHING to do with.

 

Nick can whine all he wants maybe if GW had better 2 way communications with their customer base they would know what we want better and stop being :cuss

[Orange Knight]

In fairness Games Workshop do make an effort with communication, as long as people are sensible enough to realise that the average customer will never have significant contact with the board of directors that run a multi-million dollar corporation, and nor should they.

 

Warhammer community respond to sensible and polite comments, and the staff at GW stores are more than happy to chat about the hobby. I don't see what one can realistically expect above this?

 

The truth is actually simple. GW don't hate anyone invested in the hobby, they actually love all the individuals who consume their products. The business exists to make a profit, and they are doing the sensible thing of diversifying what they offer as they grow. Warhammer Plus is not an attack on their identity as a model company, and all the content they've so far released revolves around the traditional hobbyist experience.

 

3D printing is also not a significant threat. Some great examples have been discussed in this topic already. Home kitchens and restaurants can exist simultaneously. Regular Printers did not put Magic the Gathering or Pokémon cards out of business, etc, etc.

 

I don't see how anyone can look at the content Games Workshop and Black Library have recently released, and come to the conclusion that they somehow hate their own IP. It is very true that over time it has changed in certain ways, but that is a naturally occurring progression and occurs in all things, from society, politics and language to fictitious movie and book franchises.

[Xenith]

- 3D printing allows me to print things for friends who would love to get into miniwargaming but can't afford it for cost of materials. I can supply bespoke maps and terrain for my whole group.

- 3D printing opens more avenues for creativity and being a "maker."

- Could start my own business if I really get into it.

 

 

Traditional sculpting and terrain modelling have existed prior to the GW hobby, so ability to do these things are not what's stopping you from doing them, or making a business from it. Likewise, these things have not made GW go bust. GW have in the past encouraged them, and continue to do so, albeit in a more subtle manner. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Xenith

[Schurge]

 

You do whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. If you feel like GW hates you, pursue other games and companies.

 

But some of the things you mention are utter claptrap.

 

For instance the bits thing. They physically can’t sell you bits. Their number of kits are so huge that if they where to split them apart for bits, would require ware house space so large it just isn’t financially feasible.

 

Nick Bayton talked about it on a hobby hangout stream where he got fed up with the whining in chat over issues that the Warhammer community team has NOTHING to do with.

 

 

I fully acknowledge that some of my points were extremely subjective, especially the first few which are based on my quite possibly warped perception and not reality as it has been blankly stated by GW.

 

However, I don't think my point about bits is as unreasonable as you think. I didn't mean to ask say that I want to be able to buy any part across the range. I'm talking shoulder-pads and weapon options, heads, and upgrade kits.... basically the things that Pop Goes the Monkey does... the things Forgeworld used to do.

 

 

I'm a thirty year old who is turning to 3D printing not because of price but because a mountain of other reasons. For the most part I'm fine with 40k prices.

 

Reasons I am buying a 3D Printer in no particular order:

 

- GW seems to hate their IP.

- GW seems to want to not be a miniatures company anymore.

- GW publicly disowns people like me.

- GW wants gaping mouth cultists who live to consume, for whom pop-culture is a religion and an identity.

 

I don't understand these points.

 

 

Point 1: I tend to view changes to themes and aesthetics that are core to the IP historically in order to appeal to new audiences as evidence that GW doesn't like their IP. Of course my perspective is from that of an singular artist with a "take it or leave it" vision for art and GW is a corporation that wants to make money and employs many artists with conflicting visions. I may very well be wrong on this point as others have pointed out but it still devalues Warhammer to me regardless. I think this is a minority view point on this board, but it certainly isn't uncommon elsewhere like on Youtube where you've got people like Gamza and the Outer Circle with sizeable audiences constantly bemoaning the sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle shifts in aesthetic in both the product and promotional artwork.

 

Point 2: I view GWs collaboration with the toy market, other forms of licensed merchandising, and Warhammer+ as an attempt to shift away from being a miniatures company into being an IP company. Your mileage may very, others see it as merely diversifying. I hope that's all it is.

 

Point 3: Throwaway point. I'm still salty about perceived negative treatment of fan creators who aren't in lockstep with everything that comes out of Warhammer Community. My local GW guy treats me like a friend while he's on the clock. <3 you bro.

 

Point 4: This kind of ties into all three of the previous points. My perception of what GW now wants is a guy who consumes everything they produce, constantly starting new armies, buying every boxed set, binge watches their Warhammer+, reads their books and now comics, and buys all their third party dust collector merchandise, and does so uncritically without thought or criticism of the changes made a long the way. I often feel GW thinks I am a child when perusing Warhammer Community with some of their marketing.

 

I just want to be creative in the Warhammer world and play table-top games with my local community. I don't want Warhammer to consume every aspect of my life outside of work / family or for GW to be an authority figure that hands down life-lessons. This could again all be a personal problem - inaccurate perception combined with an unrealistic expectation for how a corporation should treat their IP. Either way, I still feel  like an outsider in my own hobby whenever I scroll through a comment thread about all that other stuff GW is undertaking and the changes they are making to their IP. Either way, I don't see myself throwing the kinds of money down that I have in the past for an IP that I'm increasingly losing faith in. 

[Scribe]

Either way, I don't see myself throwing the kinds of money down that I have in the past for an IP that I'm increasingly losing faith in.

Just wait till they raise the Emperor and start the crusade into the Eye of Terror. :(

[MegaVolt87]

@ Schurge, on points 1-2 GW has to change with the times or they won't be around in force. Look at historicals propped up by mainly boomers and a few older millenials. 30k-40k would head the same way except its millenials and some older zoomers in comparison. The product range is expanding to cater for everyone, hence the upcoming HH re-boot etc. Point 3, people like who you think I mean have been ostracized for just being grifters using the hobby as a veil to their personal politics (Arch). We don't need any of that in the hobby IMO- from either side. Point 4, GW can wish with one hand and you know what with the other. Most people are smart enough to no buy into the hype train or act like that. GW will still take your miney and be glad you are buying, even if its not everything and only what you like, another reason why they are expanding their products hoping you like at least something. Its not as bad as you think it is, but sure there are problems as has everything. 

[Azekai]

@ Schurge, on points 1-2 GW has to change with the times or they won't be around in force. Look at historicals propped up by mainly boomers and a few older millenials. 30k-40k would head the same way except its millenials and some older zoomers in comparison. The product range is expanding to cater for everyone, hence the upcoming HH re-boot etc.

I don't buy it... or rather, I don't buy that this makes sense from a corporate strategy. If the goal is to widen their product appeal and increase the player base, changing aesthetics and abandoning the bleakness of the 41st Millennium ain't the way to go. We have a glut of sci fi games out there, but none of them with the staying power of 40k.

 

If they want to actually change with the times (rather than water down their products into irrelevancy) they could start by acknowledging how obscene their profit margins are and expand the ways for new recruits to make armies for less.

[AenarIT]

The issue lies mainly in pricing. 
Of course those of us so committed to the hobby that we comment on this forum and on this very topic are less likely to be those put off by hobby prices. We wouldn't still be in the hobby and therefore here to comment otherwise. 
But how many of us have (or had) real life friends that were interested in the hobby but they nope'd out the moment they heard how much these "figurines" cost. 

"But GW's stock is doing so well, they can't possibly be doing something wrong!"

Well, we have no control group to test the other alternative, which would be how much more money they would make if prices were more affordable (20-30-40% cheaper, you name it) and the customer base was much bigger in return. 

As long as the customer base of those in their late 20s, 30s and 40s have time and money to sink in this hobby, they are not going out of business.

But attracting kids (ie: future, life long customers) is definitely more difficult when prices consistently go up across the board and beginner sets cost more (combat patrol vs start collecting sets for example). 

[Valkyrion]

The issue lies mainly in pricing. 

Of course those of us so committed to the hobby that we comment on this forum and on this very topic are less likely to be those put off by hobby prices. We wouldn't still be in the hobby and therefore here to comment otherwise. 

But how many of us have (or had) real life friends that were interested in the hobby but they nope'd out the moment they heard how much these "figurines" cost. 

 

"But GW's stock is doing so well, they can't possibly be doing something wrong!"

Well, we have no control group to test the other alternative, which would be how much more money they would make if prices were more affordable (20-30-40% cheaper, you name it) and the customer base was much bigger in return. 

 

As long as the customer base of those in their late 20s, 30s and 40s have time and money to sink in this hobby, they are not going out of business.

But attracting kids (ie: future, life long customers) is definitely more difficult when prices consistently go up across the board and beginner sets cost more (combat patrol vs start collecting sets for example). 

 

I really don't think this would be the case and isn't generally how business works. It's fine in theory, and as you say it is untested, but simply cheapening the product to increase sales comes with increased costs throughout the rest of the business.

 

For example, I run a domestic appliance store and (for ease of maths) lets say I have two shop staff and two delivery staff. The shop staff sells an average of 10 machines a day, the delivery staff deliver 10 machines a day. 

If my prices are halved then the number of machines I need to sell and get delivered must double to reach the same target, which is unlikely to happen but lets assume it does. 

My shop staff would need to increase by 1 and my delivery staff would need to increase by 2, as well as buying another vehicle so I'm now actually losing money by selling more stuff. 

 

Unless, of course, the argument is that my washing machines are already too expensive by half so I should double my workforce, workload and fleet for the same money as I was on before....which is silly. 

 

If the business can grow financially without taking on more overheads like shops or staff then absolutely, halve the prices and double the customer base and get more people into your business, but it's rarely feasible. 

[Rik Lightstar]

When they're selling stock so fast that they can't get production up to the level they need to keep the entire range in stock and a lot of their new products sell out on their preorder weekends then commercially there is absolutely no justification for them to lower prices.

 

They're in the process of expanding production and distribution capacity, not that I think they'll lower the prices on the standard squad boxes, however I think they will definitely be introducing far more "value boxes" in the form of the Start Collecting - Combat Patrol - Battle Box sets.

 

Once they've updated the 40k Start Collectings to all be in the newer Combat Patrol Format then I'd not be at all surprised to see them start on a range of alternative Combat Patrol boxes that when paired with the original would give you a Battalion. Depending on the contents of the first box, the second would add the required HQ and Troops choices plus whichever of Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support isn't already represented

 

Rik

[Arkhanist]

 

The issue lies mainly in pricing. 

Of course those of us so committed to the hobby that we comment on this forum and on this very topic are less likely to be those put off by hobby prices. We wouldn't still be in the hobby and therefore here to comment otherwise. 

But how many of us have (or had) real life friends that were interested in the hobby but they nope'd out the moment they heard how much these "figurines" cost. 

 

"But GW's stock is doing so well, they can't possibly be doing something wrong!"

Well, we have no control group to test the other alternative, which would be how much more money they would make if prices were more affordable (20-30-40% cheaper, you name it) and the customer base was much bigger in return. 

 

As long as the customer base of those in their late 20s, 30s and 40s have time and money to sink in this hobby, they are not going out of business.

But attracting kids (ie: future, life long customers) is definitely more difficult when prices consistently go up across the board and beginner sets cost more (combat patrol vs start collecting sets for example). 

 

I really don't think this would be the case and isn't generally how business works. It's fine in theory, and as you say it is untested, but simply cheapening the product to increase sales comes with increased costs throughout the rest of the business.

 

For example, I run a domestic appliance store and (for ease of maths) lets say I have two shop staff and two delivery staff. The shop staff sells an average of 10 machines a day, the delivery staff deliver 10 machines a day. 

If my prices are halved then the number of machines I need to sell and get delivered must double to reach the same target, which is unlikely to happen but lets assume it does. 

My shop staff would need to increase by 1 and my delivery staff would need to increase by 2, as well as buying another vehicle so I'm now actually losing money by selling more stuff. 

 

Unless, of course, the argument is that my washing machines are already too expensive by half so I should double my workforce, workload and fleet for the same money as I was on before....which is silly. 

 

If the business can grow financially without taking on more overheads like shops or staff then absolutely, halve the prices and double the customer base and get more people into your business, but it's rarely feasible. 

 

 

It comes down to the supply/demand curve; and this depends upon the price elasticity of the product and your production constraints. At its simplest, lowering the price will increase the number of people willing to buy the product; raising the price will reduce it. Meanwhile, as you say, at a given price point you can supply x amount of product given the constraints of production and fixed costs. Both lines are rarely straight, and very rarely 1:1. Lowing the price by half might get you 10 times as many customers; or 10% more. Equally, you may already have spare capacity on your production machines; if your postal supplier has excess capacity, and you're already charging for postage, then that's not a constraint either, so you can lower the price, increase sales and need only minimal or no extra staff to handle it so it's a net profit gain. Or if you're heavily labour and production constrained already, then growing your production comes at such a high direct or opportunity cost that more sales cost more than the benefit you gain.

 

Price elasticity means how much changes in the price affect demand. Commodity goods are generally very price elastic; if your teabags go up 20% in price, and a competitor doesn't, customers are quite likely to switch brand, so you'd see a big drop in demand. Urgent, vital goods aren't - if you need bottled water after a hurricane, you can double the price and people will still very much want to buy it (this is why there are often laws about price gouging in emergencies). Expensive luxury goods are often also quite inelastic - if you wanted a GW Indomitus set (or a lamborghini), there are no exact substitute products; so people are more willing to pay the price demanded. So even when the only suppliers are scalpers charging a hefty premium, there are still people willing to pay that price in order to get it.

 

And there are a lot of other factors. So ideally you find the price point where your demand curve and supply curve meet; the price at which you maximise sales, at a production point that still makes a profit. 

 

But that's not the end of it. GW is production constrained; for most flagship products, they're selling all they can make. So arguably, prices should go UP in the short term, so they make more profit on the products they can sell (and/or buy more production so they can capture those sales lost to people who can't buy but would if it was available). They are increasing production capacity, and the MTO for kill team indicates they do want to try to capture those sales. And the products are fairly price inelastic - people complain about the prices, e.g. heavy intercessors, but they still buy.

 

But you also have to factor in time, and external factors, which a basic supply/demand curve does not. People age out of the hobby all the time; many stop in their 20s as they have families, less free time with work etc; and may come back later in their 30s and 40s. So while you can sell a lot of product right now at a given price, you may find your sales plummet as your customer base disappears, whether it's ageing out, not selling new products that people want, bad reputation catching up with you etc. So if you want to capture younger people and make long term customers out of them, it can be worth making your products more broadly available at a lower price, and build up brand loyalty to ensure future profitability.

 

It's a complex dance, and there's no clear answer at any given time where the best place for prices to be is. They were in a tough spot in the late 2000s and early 2010s, with very low profits and falling sales; prices were higher than the market would bear. They turned that around by making more attractive products and introducing start collecting/christmas boxes to lower entry price without cutting normal prices. Right now profits are very good, and still rising, so I'd expect general prices to keep going up for the time being as clearly the fans are willing to pay it - for now - whether we like it or not.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Point 4: This kind of ties into all three of the previous points. My perception of what GW now wants is a guy who consumes everything they produce, constantly starting new armies, buying every boxed set, binge watches their Warhammer+, reads their books and now comics, and buys all their third party dust collector merchandise, and does so uncritically without thought or criticism of the changes made a long the way. I often feel GW thinks I am a child when perusing Warhammer Community with some of their marketing.

 

I just want to be creative in the Warhammer world and play table-top games with my local community. I don't want Warhammer to consume every aspect of my life outside of work / family or for GW to be an authority figure that hands down life-lessons. This could again all be a personal problem - inaccurate perception combined with an unrealistic expectation for how a corporation should treat their IP. Either way, I still feel like an outsider in my own hobby whenever I scroll through a comment thread about all that other stuff GW is undertaking and the changes they are making to their IP. Either way, I don't see myself throwing the kinds of money down that I have in the past for an IP that I'm increasingly losing faith in.

I agree with alot of that. I'd be super curious how their sales look per person. I think they have a similar experience to mobile games, that saying where they make 99% of their money of 1% of the players. Obviously not to that extent, but to a point. I sold everything off last time I quit and I came back in 8th with death guard. Spent less than $100 with shipping for two DG half of dark imperium then got the rest of my army from 15% off retailers. Also got some nurgle daemons, the start collecting for them is super cost efficient. Then for Christmas last year I got 2 chaos space marines start collecting and the decimation battle box, but I will probably sell those off when the CSM codex comes out. I have lost all desire for a third army with GW and their delayed rules / codex creep and price increases. It's not a situation where I don't have the money, I'm an engineer in my 30's, wife works full time too, only one kid, have a house on a private lake with other more expensive hobbies, but I get heartburn paying $80 for $2 worth of plastic and paying $100 for rules that get outdated every few years and on the codex side, sometimes aren't even playable with codex creep. My brother has 2 3D printers and printed his whole imperial knights army, and after painting them, I can't even tell the difference from GW's.

 

But for every guy like me there is someone who has 3-4 marine armies (and re bought them all with Primaris marines), multiple other armies, only pays full price from GW, every release makes the same stupid joke "o my poor wallet", signed up for the app day one, signed up for Warhammer+, has a white dwarf subscription and buys/reads their books. Some even buy those big overpriced action figures / toys.

 

It doesn't matter if I quit or boycott or complain. I was never giving GW that much money anyways. The player I described after myself is where GW makes their money hand over foot, he is worth 10x or even more than me. So as long as GW has those guys, sometimes referred to as whales, it doesn't matter what the rest of us (people like me) do. It's not like I didn't try and get into the other aspects, I love the lore and the setting, but the app was pretty bad at first and there are free ones that work better. Warhammer+ doesn't offer nearly as much as say Netflix or Hulu does for the money for me. The books are often all over the place, numbers and scales don't add up, some authors are good some are bad, some are only good at writing certain things. The books that are "bolter porn" are cringey and embarrassing, much like some of the community posts can be treating us like children they are trying to market to. So I feel you Schurge, I often feel like an outsider in the hobby too sometimes with the direction GW takes.

 

I would not be surprised if GW published findings that showed 20-30% of the customers are how they make 80-70% of their money.

 

Nick Bayton talked about it on a hobby hangout stream where he got fed up with the whining in chat over issues that the Warhammer community team has NOTHING to do with.

Well didn't they use to sell bits? It's a service they use to offer and took away. If a restaurant takes an item off the menu and it was my favorite thing, is it crazy to think I might go there less often and give my business elsewhere now? I think it's adorable when GW complains about their customers. Their customers are mostly adult nerdy men obsessed with their game/setting that they have been playing for 10-30 years, many have paid in the $1,000's and spent countless hours assembling, painting and playing GW's niche overpriced luxury hobby. How dare those customers want to voice their concerns to GW's few channels of communication. Shame on them for having an opinion on a hobby they are so invested in...

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited August 27, 2021 by Putrid Choir

[Joe]

 

Nick Bayton talked about it on a hobby hangout stream where he got fed up with the whining in chat over issues that the Warhammer community team has NOTHING to do with.

Well didn't they use to sell bits? It's a service they use to offer and took away. If a restaurant takes an item off the menu and it was my favorite thing, is it crazy to think I might go there less often and give my business elsewhere now? I think it's adorable when GW complains about their customers. Their customers are mostly adult nerdy men obsessed with their game/setting that they have been playing for 10-30 years, many have paid in the $1,000's and spent countless hours assembling, painting and playing GW's niche overpriced luxury hobby. How dare those customers want to voice their concerns to GW's few channels of communication. Shame on them for having an opinion on a hobby they are so invested in...

 

 

Scale was the primary issue. Past a point the service simply became impractical to maintain due to the volume required, and the need to be constantly splitting up boxes for bits as well as having space to store them. To be perfectly honest very few companies offer bits services anymore as is, and have instead shifted to bundles / multiples of a pre-produced bit - and even that is done with great reluctance, speaking from past experience.

 

It's perfectly fine for people to voice their complaints, however it should be done respectfully and with due consideration for who they are voicing them to. You don't harass the chap behind the counter at the super-market over a product being out of stock or a sale having finished before you got there - that's not what he's there for. There's clearly advertised places for customers to voice their grievances to, i.e. the Customer Service team - the Warhammer Community team aren't really that.

 

That said, if you can't voice a grievance without being polite you shouldn't be opening your mouth in the first place. Customer Service is a frustrating enough job to begin with without Billy No-Neck getting all bent out of shape because he can't read.

[Dark Shepherd]

TBF it was a lot easier to sell bits when there were a lot less of them.

That said I still think it would ultimately benefit GW to sell bits through a licensed 3rd party

 

AOS seems a lot more friendly to new players in price and in general.

 

Ask your local redshirt at Christmas what the parents are all buying/what the kids are asking for, could be revealing

[Rik Lightstar]

 

Nick Bayton talked about it on a hobby hangout stream where he got fed up with the whining in chat over issues that the Warhammer community team has NOTHING to do with.

Well didn't they use to sell bits? It's a service they use to offer and took away. If a restaurant takes an item off the menu and it was my favorite thing, is it crazy to think I might go there less often and give my business elsewhere now? I think it's adorable when GW complains about their customers. Their customers are mostly adult nerdy men obsessed with their game/setting that they have been playing for 10-30 years, many have paid in the $1,000's and spent countless hours assembling, painting and playing GW's niche overpriced luxury hobby. How dare those customers want to voice their concerns to GW's few channels of communication. Shame on them for having an opinion on a hobby they are so invested in...

 

Edit: Grammar

 

 

 

Yeah they did, when they made metal models, and the option was only there for metal components, and not all of those. You could order single sprues of things but there was little point as it was usually better value to buy a full box. You also had to do it either over the phone knowing the product codes or by a mail in form.

 

Their sales were 25% of what they are now. Rules updates and FAQs were annually via Chapter Approved, if you were lucky. There were very few 3rd party stockists and they didn't offer much in the way of discounts.

 

It's really not something I can see them having a way back to.

 

Rik

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

 

Nick Bayton talked about it on a hobby hangout stream where he got fed up with the whining in chat over issues that the Warhammer community team has NOTHING to do with.

Well didn't they use to sell bits? It's a service they use to offer and took away. If a restaurant takes an item off the menu and it was my favorite thing, is it crazy to think I might go there less often and give my business elsewhere now? I think it's adorable when GW complains about their customers. Their customers are mostly adult nerdy men obsessed with their game/setting that they have been playing for 10-30 years, many have paid in the $1,000's and spent countless hours assembling, painting and playing GW's niche overpriced luxury hobby. How dare those customers want to voice their concerns to GW's few channels of communication. Shame on them for having an opinion on a hobby they are so invested in...

Scale was the primary issue. Past a point the service simply became impractical to maintain due to the volume required, and the need to be constantly splitting up boxes for bits as well as having space to store them. To be perfectly honest very few companies offer bits services anymore as is, and have instead shifted to bundles / multiples of a pre-produced bit - and even that is done with great reluctance, speaking from past experience.

 

It's perfectly fine for people to voice their complaints, however it should be done respectfully and with due consideration for who they are voicing them to. You don't harass the chap behind the counter at the super-market over a product being out of stock or a sale having finished before you got there - that's not what he's there for. There's clearly advertised places for customers to voice their grievances to, i.e. the Customer Service team - the Warhammer Community team aren't really that.

 

That said, if you can't voice a grievance without being polite you shouldn't be opening your mouth in the first place. Customer Service is a frustrating enough job to begin with without Billy No-Neck getting all bent out of shape because he can't read.

O I agree with you, treat people how you would like to be treated. But it's only natural for people to be upset that a service was taken away. The scope now would be too hard to do the bits too, I agree. But it all circles back to some predatory business practices of not including all the wargear/weapons options in the box to begin with. Want that second blight launcher? Buy a whole other box of plague marines! $$

 

Edit: @Rik Lightstar - It's definately not doable now or would not be economically responsible. I wasn't trying to argue they should bring it back, I was making the statement it's natural for someone who liked and used the service (I never did personally) to be upset after it was taken away.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Putrid Choir