GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[Joe]

I vaguely recall them mentioning a 2-7% price increase on the last investor statement. 

[Valkyrion]

Also, a price increase now or next month is likely to be tempered somewhat by the HH box (assuming it comes) being priced fairly, and the xmas battle boxes are usually very good value - plus they know that Black Templars players will pay any money for their new righteousness. 

[Redcomet]

Surely return to work and expanded warehouse would solve supply problem?

 

But mainly they have to know with the + shenanigans and shipping delays that price increases would be very badly timed

The vast majority of GW’s customers care nothing for whatever drama twitter thinks is the new hotness.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

Surely return to work and expanded warehouse would solve supply problem?

 

But mainly they have to know with the + shenanigans and shipping delays that price increases would be very badly timed

The vast majority of GW’s customers care nothing for whatever drama twitter thinks is the new hotness.

True. But influencers do tend to mention the. And everyone can understand a price increase not being nice. And we are back to the same problems of squeezing people out, people drifting away, barriers to entry especially when price of more essential items in the UK are going up

[Valkyrion]

 

 

Surely return to work and expanded warehouse would solve supply problem?

 

But mainly they have to know with the + shenanigans and shipping delays that price increases would be very badly timed

The vast majority of GW’s customers care nothing for whatever drama twitter thinks is the new hotness.

True. But influencers do tend to mention the. And everyone can understand a price increase not being nice. And we are back to the same problems of squeezing people out, people drifting away, barriers to entry especially when price of more essential items in the UK are going up

 

 

As has been said before - the prices are high but the barrier to entry is low.

You can make this hobby expensive but why would you do that on your way in? You can chop and change factions, but again, why would you when you have just joined the hobby? 

This is a luxury, niche hobby and is priced accordingly.

 

If you want to play computer games from scratch you have to drop £500 before you buy any games. If you want to learn electric guitar or drums you have to drop £250 before you pay for any lessons. 

If you want to learn AOS, or Blood Bowl, or Necromunda, or 40k then it costs a maximum of £105 to get two starting forces, a board to play on and the full set of rules. 

[Dark Shepherd]

If your mates/local scene mostly play 1500 or 2k points games youre going to need that much

 

People have pc's at home already

Nobody gets knickers thrown at them for being good at Necromunda.

 

We can nitpick over what entry counts as, be it getting into 40k or any GW product or first decent sized army. The cheapest starter set might be 50 bucks but thats the barest technical minimum entry then theres paints, brushes etc. And vast majority are going to start off with

AoS or 40k. Barriers to going further are still barriers

 

Aside from issue of parents blanching at some of the prices esp characters theres also a minor issue of (purchases) vouchers as presents and pocket money dont exactly keep up with inflation either. So kids/voucher recipients get way less bang for their buck

Edited September 7, 2021 by Dark Shepherd

[Valkyrion]

You're moving the goal posts a bit, IMO.

 

People who are just starting out playing guitar don't get knickers thrown at them - a person attracting that kind of attention has likely spent tens of thousands of pounds/dollars getting there.

If you have a home PC then fair enough, you can play certain games sure - but if I want to play Red Dead online with my mates then I need an Xbox, a microsoft subscription, the game itself, a 4k tv to play it on. You could argue that I don't need a 4k tv, but I can argue that you don't need to play 2000 point games with someone who hasn't got that many models. 

I'm the only person I know of with a home PC, by the way. The vast majority of my friends use tablets, smart phones, laptops et al and none of them use those items for gaming. 

 

Also, if your mates do have that many models and won't let you use them to see if you like the hobby, and would instead insist that you have to buy 1500 points worth of stuff just to play with them then thats a bit grim.

 

Its not nitpicking - its really the truth. Exploring any hobby to its fullest is expensive but starting most hobbies, including this one, really isn't. 

Because of my £200 electric guitar starter kit 20 years ago I now have I collection of guitars worth a lot of money, a dedicated soundproofed room in my house, thousands of pounds worth of recording equipment...I'm not trying to show off, just trying to make the point that just because I've spent a lot on that hobby doesn't mean I had to buy all that at once, but I fell in deep with the hobby and wanted to go all in over a period of 20 years.

If a friend wanted to learn guitar and didn't want to use my stuff, I wouldn't tell him he needs to buy a gibson and a mesa boogie amp otherwise its a waste of time.

[MARK0SIAN]

FWIW I think you’re both right. The initial cost to literally get started is pretty low. But the problem is that as soon as you want to move beyond that starter set the cost skyrockets very quickly. For example let’s say you want to play space marines. Once you’ve done the starter set you’ll need the codex, at least another character then some units. There is the option of getting a combat patrol set but they’re pretty similar in terms of units available and don’t include units from the Indomitus wave onwards. Plus a lot of the value in some of them is swallowed by the upgrade kits which you may not want.

 

The game desperately needs some kind of expansion sets for each faction. A combat patrol or better yet an army box set that’s aimed squarely at people looking expand on the start of an army and offers a noticeable discount over buying the stuff individually.

[Dark Shepherd]

Whoosh brah

 

We're also piling too much into one analogy

 

Edit

 

@markosian army boxes (year round) would be a great idea

Edited September 7, 2021 by Dark Shepherd

[Redcomet]

You're moving the goal posts a bit, IMO.

 

People who are just starting out playing guitar don't get knickers thrown at them - a person attracting that kind of attention has likely spent tens of thousands of pounds/dollars getting there.

If you have a home PC then fair enough, you can play certain games sure - but if I want to play Red Dead online with my mates then I need an Xbox, a microsoft subscription, the game itself, a 4k tv to play it on. You could argue that I don't need a 4k tv, but I can argue that you don't need to play 2000 point games with someone who hasn't got that many models.

I'm the only person I know of with a home PC, by the way. The vast majority of my friends use tablets, smart phones, laptops et al and none of them use those items for gaming.

 

Also, if your mates do have that many models and won't let you use them to see if you like the hobby, and would instead insist that you have to buy 1500 points worth of stuff just to play with them then thats a bit grim.

 

Its not nitpicking - its really the truth. Exploring any hobby to its fullest is expensive but starting most hobbies, including this one, really isn't.

Because of my £200 electric guitar starter kit 20 years ago I now have I collection of guitars worth a lot of money, a dedicated soundproofed room in my house, thousands of pounds worth of recording equipment...I'm not trying to show off, just trying to make the point that just because I've spent a lot on that hobby doesn't mean I had to buy all that at once, but I fell in deep with the hobby and wanted to go all in over a period of 20 years.

If a friend wanted to learn guitar and didn't want to use my stuff, I wouldn't tell him he needs to buy a gibson and a mesa boogie amp otherwise its a waste of time.

Super well put.

[LameBeard]

I think you guys are onto something here.

 

I have a son who’s got into Warhammer. He has moderately wealthy grandparents, godparents, aunts and uncles who’d like to know what he’s into for birthday or Christmas presents. But I’m pretty reluctant to tell them to get him some Warhammer - given the unfamiliarity they have with it, there just isn’t much that seems reasonable to ask for that would fit his army expansion plans and also appears good value.

 

Mind you, I feel the same way about Star Wars Lego too.

[AenarIT]

The entry level cost can be incredibly low if you have friends that can sell you second hand stuff, 3D print models for you or gift you some of their pile of shame. 
I've seen all of the above happen at my club, where members helped each other and new people as well in starting a new project, a new game or a new hobby from scratch. 

But the point here is about product prices of the biggest company in this industry, probably the only one that many hobbyists (current or soon-to-be ones) are aware of. 
How many new hobbyists are aware of the existence of third party retailers (FLGS) that often sell new products at discount? Or second hand markets?

And I could go on and on with similar examples. 

For us, long-time customers who know a thing or two about this industry and how to keep going on a tight budget, high prices can be justified by comparing them with other hobbies and activities. It also helps us rationalise the huge amount of money we've spent, that's for sure

But for new people, for parents deciding whether to buy or not these expensive "toys", current retail prices look insane indeed. 

Raising prices when demand is higher than supply is the rational economic thing to do to maximise profits. But long term it risks backfiring, for all the reasons that have been discussed over and over again. 
I have owned some GW shares for several years now so I'm pretty happy about its financials, but I am indeed worried a bit about future growth. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by AenarIT

[Karhedron]

I have a son who’s got into Warhammer. He has moderately wealthy grandparents, godparents, aunts and uncles who’d like to know what he’s into for birthday or Christmas presents. But I’m pretty reluctant to tell them to get him some Warhammer - given the unfamiliarity they have with it, there just isn’t much that seems reasonable to ask for that would fit his army expansion plans and also appears good value.

Gift vouchers are always an option. That way several people can contribute to the purchase of a larger unit or box. If you feel particularly keen, you can always send them a few photos of the eventual purchase under construction so they are sure their present has been appreciated.

[Arkhanist]

For youngsters coming into the hobby, their first point of contact isn't usually a FLGS - it's that heavily branded, brightly lit, lots of models in the window, highly visible Warhammer store on the high street. That's primarily *why* those stores exist. "Come in, we're child friendly! Safe! Fun!"

 

Not all teenagers come in because they have friends already playing it - it used to be dawn of war, but could be a mobile game, or the books, or a 'normal' retail store stocked purchase like space hulk etc used to be (I guess these days it's space marine adventures).

 

Even if they do have a small group of friends introducing them, they're also likely to be cash poor and don't have a massive pile of shame like us grognards accumulated over the years - they quite likely use everything they own, so don't have spare models to gift. To introduce and have a game or two with, sure - enough to get them hooked, but then they need them back to play their own games!

 

And then that youngster goes to that big shiny store, and the staff will definitely try to sell them a start collecting and a beginning paint set. The problem is the *next* visits, and the parents realise they need hundreds of pounds to buy enough units to play a game, that this stuff they already bought doesn't go with that army, there's a lot more paints, rulebook, codex, etc etc. Spending hundreds on a guitar and lessons for parents is one thing - it's a respectable skill, same with sports etc. Spending the price of an xbox on something weird, that they might lose interest in, that looks like complicated kids toys, and has silly sounding names? (and possibly they spotted the demons...)

 

Harder than you think. Certainly when I used to work GW retail, getting the kids interested was the easy part. Getting the parents to accept that it is an interesting hobby, not just for friendless spotty nerds hiding in bedrooms, and it's worth the money... that was definitely much harder. And you get a lot less for an xbox cost than you did back then. And ultimately, it's parental or family money usually paying for it, you don't get into 40k on paper round money. So yeah, gift cards are definitely good to recommend for older relatives.

 

Even someone in their 20s though, with an entry level job; it might be their money instead of a parent, but they're still not going to have lots of it. And you need to compete against smartphone games, maybe a console, subscription TV, nights out with friends... I think it's possible to have rose tinted glasses from when metal minis were 50p each when we started, you needed a whole lot less, and how much higher getting fully into the hobby (more than a start collecting) has risen over inflation. 

 

RTB01, the infamous first plastic marines box cost £9.99 in 1988, for 30 marines - enough for most of an army. Purely by inflation, that same box would cost around £23 today, or 77p per marine in current money. Primaris intercessors? £3.50 each, or £3.95 for a heavy intercessor.

 

Yes, the models have got a lot better quality. Yes, there are ways to pay a bit less via FLGS. But sometimes, comments in this thread remind me of grandparents telling millennials to just stop buying avocado toast, and they'll be able to afford a house like they did on a single postman's salary back in the day. GW is a *lot* more expensive to get into than it was when us 30 or 40 year olds were starting out, and what we can afford now is a lot different to someone on a tight budget.

 

And sure, who cares, right? Except players leave all the time, due to other commitments, losing interest, or just aging out. You need new players coming in to a) have flesh blood to play, and b] keep the lights on at GW long term so we keep getting our new plastic crack. You can make a lot of money off current 40 yo's nostalgia, but it's not a forever business plan, you need new customers eventually.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Arkhanist

[alfred_the_great]

Well, it’s interesting to see GW can literally give stuff away for free, and “fans” will still whine about it.

 

They are literally on a hiding to nothing.

[Azekai]

And then that youngster goes to that big shiny store, and the staff will definitely try to sell them a start collecting and a beginning paint set. The problem is the *next* visits, and the parents realise they need hundreds of pounds to buy enough units to play a game, that this stuff they already bought doesn't go with that army, there's a lot more paints, rulebook, codex, etc etc. Spending hundreds on a guitar and lessons for parents is one thing - it's a respectable skill, same with sports etc. Spending the price of an xbox on something weird, that they might lose interest in, that looks like complicated kids toys, and has silly sounding names?

*snip*

 

And sure, who cares, right? Except players leave all the time, due to other commitments, losing interest, or just aging out. You need new players coming in to a) have flesh blood to play, and b] keep the lights on at GW long term so we keep getting our new plastic crack. You can make a lot of money off current 40 yo's nostalgia, but it's not a forever business plan, you need new customers eventually.

I could not agree more. The game (and by extension, the hobby) is not approachable or intuitive. This may sound cynical, but I am sure they sell a reasonable number of starter sets to kids/younger teens, with the expectation of the majority of these people not actually getting into 40k as a hobby- the best approach is to wring out of them what you can before they leave the store. I doubt the long term customer retention of this method is very high. GW marketing strategy appears to be pivoting more and more to take advantage of the already captured customer. They keep outputting 'limited release' marine HQs and slightly retooled primaris variants because people will buy them.

 

A lot of people got into (or came back) to the hobby in 8th. Early 8th was as approachable as 40k has ever been in recent memory. Now, I think GW is not trying to continue attracting fresh face recruits as much as they expending the goodwill and enthusiasm of the people drawn in an edition ago.

 

[Halandaar]

I remember having to save up my pocket money to buy new models and rely on Christmas/birthdays even back in the 90s, and when I returned to the hobby after uni, putting an army together was a long-term endeavour, something achieved over months if not years of smaller purchases or saving up for bigger ones (not helped by the fact that some of that money had to go towards rebuilding my paint and brush collection). It is not exactly a purely modern concern that the price of non-essential hobby items is high relative to available disposable cash.

 

I'm at risk of sounding like a grumpy old man here, but it feels like some of the complaining done on behalf of the "new blood" is based on 2021's need to have everything immediately, rather than the reality that building your way into a hobby is a time and money sink, and always has been. It's not a matter of "stop eating avocado toast and you can buy a house", it's a matter of "stop complaining you can't buy an infantry box every month, save and buy one every two months". 

 

You don't start playing guitar with a PRS custom, you don't get started with PC gaming on an RTX3090, you don't start road cycling with a Pinarello Dogma, why do we think people need to start playing 40k at 2000 points? These are things you build towards. You take the money you have, and you use it to buy what you can. If you need something that costs more than what you can afford, you have to save. Why is this seemingly a foreign concept to people? 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Halandaar

[excelite]

I'm at risk of sounding like a grumpy old man here, but it feels like some of the complaining done on behalf of the "new blood" is based on 2021's need to have everything immediately, rather than the reality that building your way into a hobby is a time and money sink, and always has been.

 

Very much this!

 

Just from a viewpoint of somebody that came back to the hobby a little before Indomitus was announced:

 

Going 0-2000 points from the start is plain ridiculous… the cost is huge, you don’t know which units will suite your playstyle and a lot of Units of „Great lists“ end up unused. This game is way to complex to just drop into and start at that level.

 

I‘m happy that my locals stepped down from their 2000pt games and gave me the opportunity to have a slow start. It made the cost involved easy to shoulder and I had the chance to actually learn the game step by step and make units decisions myself.

 

TLDR: the cost ain’t the problem, it’s the people that have the need to push people to “go big or go home”… if you want new people around you need to give them the chance to grow like yourself had over the years!

 

Edit: as a side note: being a nice community is a lot more important than having “female space marines”… it’s not the setting that has to be inclusive, it’s the community!

Edited September 7, 2021 by excelite

[mughi3]

The entry level cost can be incredibly low if you have friends that can sell you second hand stuff, 3D print models for you or gift you some of their pile of shame.

I've seen all of the above happen at my club, where members helped each other and new people as well in starting a new project, a new game or a new hobby from scratch.

 

That is the reality at my FLGS. as we do not play at GW stores/event and we mostly play older editons of 40K(say 95% of the regulars), even the players who do play current 9th edition 40K have all pretty well shut off of buying anything from GW.

 

With GWs recent behavior both on the gaming side and the actions taken against fan content, most players have opted to use 3d printed 3rd party designs, other companies models that "counts as" something in the 40K line. or just getting used older models online.

 

There has been a fare bit of gifting as well from the older players thinning out their old collections.

 

We are all about building a fun local community to play games, not policing GWs company policies/chasing the current meta.

[Helias_Tancred]

I was a GW store manager for around a year and a half (I'm not a sales sort of guy lol), and the theory I had was if I headed GW I'd cut retail prices by 20% and enact a 5 year plan with the goal of a greatly expanded customer base which would result in higher profits over time vs raising prices consistently and generating more revenue in the short term?

 

Again, I'm in no way a finance or sales guy ... just an average hobby Joe thinking about those sort of things. 

[Petitioner's City]

For anyone wanting a tiny window into shipping today, here's a good video from the Guardian, spurred by the Evergreen last year:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_6xqAf2nHw&ab_channel=TheGuardian

 

A useful intro into some of the issues of today's global shipping business and its impact on consumers.

[Xenith]

I was a GW store manager for around a year and a half (I'm not a sales sort of guy lol), and the theory I had was if I headed GW I'd cut retail prices by 20% and enact a 5 year plan with the goal of a greatly expanded customer base which would result in higher profits over time vs raising prices consistently and generating more revenue in the short term?

 

Again, I'm in no way a finance or sales guy ... just an average hobby Joe thinking about those sort of things. 

 

In your experience as a store manager, when you were one, did people complain about prices? I mean, I've been in the hobby a long time, and people have never not complained about prices - so a 20% cut, to me, doesn't matter, as people complained when things cost 20% less anyway. 

 

I would, however, greatly expand the ETB range and offer them at a lower price, ~£1-2 model for basic infantry (size dependant) in order to allow people to get a cheap core to an army. However this is where fixed loadouts shoot GW in the foot, as vets would just buy these to fill out armies. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Can’t believe this topic is topic is still going

[armarnis]

i guess it will come and go as long as people see GW's pricing model as a problem, no? and as high and mighty they seem now, i cant see that problem go away anytime soon.

 

quite contrary, they prove time and again that they and their shareholders (which i guess are in no small parts the management themself) are always hungry for our pocket money. they could decide to tank some of the rises but they decided against as any good predator would. so, why should the topic stop being a thing?

 

it will be as important a thing in 10 years from now as it was 10 years ago and another 10 before that, no matter if people come telling "people always complain about prices". yes they do but people you shoo away while you are rolling full steam ahead will be people still apart from you once your steam has blown off. if there is another generation of people that believe in "new gw" again? who knows. but it is always good to think twice before you forget where you come from and who you turn down.

Edited October 1, 2021 by armarnis

[Ahzek451]

Can’t believe this topic is topic is still going

Just a testament to how much of an issue it is!

 

Is GW still trending up in profit? I often wonder in the wider scope how individual hobbyist have changed over the years. In my younger days I started this hobby back in late 2nd/early 3rd as a kid. Around 4th/5th edition the chip was firmly planted in my head and I was buying stupid amounts of GW product and starting new armies left and right for the hell of it. A collection of forge world titans, on top of a large horus heresy mechanicus, sons, and iron hands armies. Too many side 40k armies. And....stupidly and admittingly a sea of unpainted grey or primed models. The joy of collecting and converting had overtaken me, but always too nervous to paint most of it for fear of messing these investments up. Even getting caught up in occasionally chasing metas. Silly times. The point being: dumping a lot of money into GW products for a time. It wasn't until a handful of years ago when I finally took a turn and figured out how to paint that I realized I had no real love for most of pet project armies I had. And I would likely be dead before I paint them all to the standard I wanted. I fell more in love with painting and the hobby over chasing metas. 

 

I have sold off most of my stuff and I have since moved to focusing on keeping my cores armies. Vowing to only focus on them. It's funny how this change also is further flamed by the large price increases from GW. I nowhere near purchase as much as I used to. Not even close. A small trickle. Happy in just going at this hobby the way IMHO think the way it was originally intended. Working on units one at a time and improving your painting skill. It takes me a good month or 2 to finish a single unit. And this change has certainly helped my wallet. I regret all those purchases years ago. 

 

I simply wonder how often this cycle exists for people. And what impact it has made/is making/will make for GW's trending growth. I don't think there is a good way to trend this.