GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[Domhnall]

 

 

I remember a time when they did discount sales in stores.

Then you must have been in the hobby about as long as I have.

I remember the store openings… offers like 5 for 4 on blisters or other discounts, or purchasing certain deals to get items free (especially armies from the Battle Reports in White Dwarf… or in Troll magazine!).

 

I look back on that time and recognise we didn’t really have independent stores doing the same discounting we have now - and have the wistful reminiscences over ringing Mail Order… it’s why I still love looking through old copies of WD and similar, because it was of a certain time and nostalgia is a strong force in this hobby.

 

 

There was one I remember back in the mid 90's in Edinburgh, there was an event where you bought 3, got cheapest free (I think it was 3?), this was on everything, figures and paints. 

I'm not sure if it was an anniversary thing, or if it was because they were changing something. It might have been when they changed from 'metal' to 'white metal' (ie no lead), so getting rid of stock, or the change from the classic hexagon paint pots to the round crappy ones. Just remember there being a massive bag full of Hawk Turquoise that nobody wanted 

And the queue was down the road. 

[sarabando]

only sales i remember were the great lead sale and the FW dread sale.

[Domhnall]

only sales i remember were the great lead sale and the FW dread sale.

 

It's the big moment of our time. What were you doing, when GW had a sale? 

 

On the one side, I think it'd be a good thing for GW to do sales like 5 for 4 or something, but then I think what would be the point? Yes, they'll get some goodwill points from customers, but that's about it. It would help the regular customers, but won't attract anybody who buys from other sources, as they'll be getting their stuff cheaper anyway. 

It'd be good if they just sold off all their old model stock one day, in a massive blowout sale! 

When first born marines get phased out, they could just sell off everything at half price! That'd be good.

Or upload a video of them melting all the plastic sprues in a big vat, much like the Transformers Movie from 1986 

[Halandaar]

 

 

There was one I remember back in the mid 90's in Edinburgh, there was an event where you bought 3, got cheapest free (I think it was 3?), this was on everything, figures and paints. 

I'm not sure if it was an anniversary thing, or if it was because they were changing something. It might have been when they changed from 'metal' to 'white metal' (ie no lead), so getting rid of stock, or the change from the classic hexagon paint pots to the round crappy ones. Just remember there being a massive bag full of Hawk Turquoise that nobody wanted 

And the queue was down the road. 

 

3 for 2 was definitely a thing, I remember it from a GW store in Peterborough in the 90s. I think that must have been for the change from lead to white metal, although  GW also used to run 3 for 2 any time a new store opened.

 

(For those with long enough memories, Paul "Fat Bloke" Sawyer even directly relied on this offer during the very first Tale of Four Gamers series in White Dwarf, because back then they had a spending limit every month.)

Edited October 19, 2021 by Halandaar

[Chaeron]

3 for 2 was definitely a thing, I remember it from a GW store in Peterborough in the 90s. I think that must have been for the change from lead to white metal, although  GW also used to run 3 for 2 any time a new store opened.

 

(For those with long enough memories, Paul "Fat Bloke" Sawyer even directly relied on this offer during the very first Tale of Four Gamers series in White Dwarf, because back then they had a spending limit every month.)

 

Long enough memories?! It feels like it was yesterday I got my copy :lol:

 

I actually think that running a Skullz promotion again would be a great option: I imagine the 'coin' aspect is one of those things to drive traffic to stores, but I enjoyed the aspect of collecting over a period of time and redeeming something for my 'loyalty'. I think in an age where lots of people go to their FLGS or third-party retailer, it'd potentially encourage people to purchase direct, and becomes less of a time sensitive exclusive but perhaps invites business over a longer period. 

 

The most recent I can recall would be the Black Library's promotion for Lemartes in 2015.

[Domhnall]

 

3 for 2 was definitely a thing, I remember it from a GW store in Peterborough in the 90s. I think that must have been for the change from lead to white metal, although  GW also used to run 3 for 2 any time a new store opened.

 

(For those with long enough memories, Paul "Fat Bloke" Sawyer even directly relied on this offer during the very first Tale of Four Gamers series in White Dwarf, because back then they had a spending limit every month.)

 

Long enough memories?! It feels like it was yesterday I got my copy

 

I actually think that running a Skullz promotion again would be a great option: I imagine the 'coin' aspect is one of those things to drive traffic to stores, but I enjoyed the aspect of collecting over a period of time and redeeming something for my 'loyalty'. I think in an age where lots of people go to their FLGS or third-party retailer, it'd potentially encourage people to purchase direct, and becomes less of a time sensitive exclusive but perhaps invites business over a longer period. 

 

The most recent I can recall would be the Black Library's promotion for Lemartes in 2015.

 

 

 

I've still got the ultramarine banner bearer for getting 10 skullz (I think?). Unpainted but undercoated obviously! 

And the bolt pistol keyring as well 

I'll dig them out tomorrow for a photo if I can find them... 

 

But yes, I think the skullz thing was great. You got free stuff for paying for stuff   but without having to do it all at once! 

 

EDIT: couldn't find the banner bearer (might have chucked recently, or he's lost in the warp that is my storage.

But here's a picture of the bolt pistol key ring

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Domhnall

[Dark Shepherd]

Did some googling on recent fluctuations on share price and found some interrsting stuff on ownership

 

"Institutional investors own over 50% of the company, so together than can probably strongly influence board decisions. Hedge funds don't have many shares in Games Workshop Group. The company's largest shareholder is Baillie Gifford & Co., with ownership of 9.8%. With 6.8% and 6.4% of the shares outstanding respectively, Schroder Investment Management Limited and BlackRock, Inc. are the second and third largest shareholders.

 

Looking at the shareholder registry, we can see that 51% of the ownership is controlled by the top 14 shareholders, meaning that no single shareholder has a majority interest in the ownership."

 

Instututions own 88% of GW

General Public 11%

GW employees 1%

 

Source https://simplywall.st/stocks/gb/consumer-durables/lse-gaw/games-workshop-group-shares/news/what-type-of-shareholders-make-up-games-workshop-group-plcs

Edited October 26, 2021 by Dark Shepherd

[Domhnall]

Did some googling on recent fluctuations on share price and found some interrsting stuff on ownership

 

"Institutional investors own over 50% of the company, so together than can probably strongly influence board decisions. Hedge funds don't have many shares in Games Workshop Group. The company's largest shareholder is Baillie Gifford & Co., with ownership of 9.8%. With 6.8% and 6.4% of the shares outstanding respectively, Schroder Investment Management Limited and BlackRock, Inc. are the second and third largest shareholders.

 

Looking at the shareholder registry, we can see that 51% of the ownership is controlled by the top 14 shareholders, meaning that no single shareholder has a majority interest in the ownership."

 

Instututions own 88% of GW

General Public 11%

GW employees 1%

 

Source https://simplywall.st/stocks/gb/consumer-durables/lse-gaw/games-workshop-group-shares/news/what-type-of-shareholders-make-up-games-workshop-group-plcs

 

Interesting read, thank you very much. 

 

A couple questions from someone with little knowledge of stocks and investments. 

What effect does the largest share holders being 'investment management' companies have on the influence of a company? More from a general interest rather than GW specifically, as I'm sure it's a pretty common thing. 

I'm assuming as they are investment managers, they are doing so on behalf of say pension funds and the like. So it's not like it's one person with an interest in the company itself, but more what the company can give back to the funds they are managing? So as long as the company is making money, the shareholders are happy that their funds are also getting money? 

 

The last section on 'next steps' links to a page I'm not signed up for (or want to sign up for to be honest), about warnings if you want to invest, but honestly, I'm not exactly au fait with much of the specific terminology, so don't want to misinterpret something that mean something different. 

[phandaal]

Most investment funds are concerned with growth and dividends.

 

So yes - as long as the companies in which they invest continue to make money, look like they will continue to make money, and are using profits either for growth or for dividends, the investment fund managers are happy.

[Dark Shepherd]

The investment warnings bit was shipping costs and high domestic energy costs in UK and elsewhere; if people have to spend more on home heating and filling the car then hobby spending goes down for some folk

 

It did also say its still a good investment with high dividends and looks good long term with diversified monetisation of the IP

[phandaal]

Yeah, people seemed to view GW's stock price fall as investors punishing them for perceived greed. Really it was because investors expect global conditions to make it harder for GW to sell things, and the stock market is a highly emotional place where short term troubles are mistaken for fundamental business problems.

 

If Games Workshop has proven anything over the years, it is that they are a company whose stock you want to buy at the dip because they always pull it back higher than it was before.

[LameBeard]

Yeah stock price “fall” is people looking for a news story and not looking at the 2-year graph.

[MegaVolt87]

Yeah stock price “fall” is people looking for a news story and not looking at the 2-year graph.

 

Also to panic and confuse "mom and pop" investors. The average joe doesn't buy into the "buy the dip!" meme which is actually the way to do it for larger companies/ investors when stocks fall. Inflation, depressions/ financial crisis is the time to setup the next period of wealth gains for the rich. Said it many times I would de-list GW as a publicly traded company which would fix many issues they have now overall with how they do things and what the community takes issue with. 

[Dark Shepherd]

Wouldnt they have to fork out several billion to delist though?

[N1SB]

Hi Fratres, in case anyone is wondering about the following:

A couple questions from someone with little knowledge of stocks and investments.

What effect does the largest share holders being 'investment management' companies have on the influence of a company? More from a general interest rather than GW specifically, as I'm sure it's a pretty common thing.

I'm assuming as they are investment managers, they are doing so on behalf of say pension funds and the like. So it's not like it's one person with an interest in the company itself, but more what the company can give back to the funds they are managing? So as long as the company is making money, the shareholders are happy that their funds are also getting money?

I stopped being a typical investment bank Man in Grey Suits for awhile now to don the Red Robes of Mars (penitently Praying the Grey Away...I was never even that bad a guy, never worked on deals that got anyone laid off, I recommended Mergers & Acquisitions for tech start-ups where the buyer definitely want to keep people for their talents), so I'll just add a little colour to the commentary. You guys are right, I'm just here to show some of the tricks of the trade, because once you see it, it's not quite that bad.

Don't ever be embarrassed to admit you don't understand stocks and investments. In the last few years, I've decided no one knows anything anymore. Fun Fact - accounting rules, called IFRS, are changing faster than editions of Warhammer nowadays.

+++ 80% of all stocks are owned by the same few institutional investors +++

Any given company, around 80% are owned by the Blackrocks, the Vanguards, the JP Morgans, etc. I was asked about this before in regards to Games Workshop, I didn't understand the question, so I downplayed it, which was my mistake. Fact is, as soon as I saw BlackRock and Vanguard and JP Morgan as large shareholders in Games Workshop, it wasn't that surprising that Wall Street was paying attention to the 1 shining star of the UK stock market.

Also, Games Workshop doesn't hide this, by law and by-laws they outright share this info, no conspiracy here:

Source: straight from GW's website ( https://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/ )

How much influence do these institutional investors have? You know if you have 51% you control a company, but you see the percentage of shares each entity owns there. I'll give you some perspective:

• if you own 5%+ of a company, you have to file special paperwork to show you have no conflicts, not manipulating stuff, etc.
• if you own 10%+ of a company, you have to file more special paperwork because you are considered an insider, there's legal stuff

Fun Fact - you see Vanguard? Vanguard's also the single largest shareholder of Microsoft, Google, Apple and Facebook. They own 7%+ of each company...all of Big Tech. To them, GW is a drop in the bucket for them, they might not even have noticed what they bought.

But let's make it more concrete. I actually have what I believe to be the definitive example of how these big hedge funds exert pressure...because it's not that bad.

+++ IMHO the definitive example of how institutional investors influence Games Workshop +++

Fun Fact - so I was working in a not-too-dishonourable investment bank in London as an analyst, analysing companies. There was this older dude at a desk to my right who'd come in and just complain in a I-wish-to-speak-to-the-manager tone over the phone, usually passive-aggressively, sometimes outright aggressively. For the 1st few days I thought he was trying to sort out some lousy cable TV or Internet or whatever service, like how we sometimes deal with our personal household stuff at the office because of working hours. When I heard more, I realised...he was speaking to CEOs...the ultimate managers of managers. It was his job to complain at them on the behalf of the bank, I guess. It was then I knew I had no interest in being a CEO. TL;DR - these guys can get a direct line to CEOs, but it's just kinda like how any one of us can call up our duly-elected representatives in government, but CEOs will take calls from them.

Now let's look at Games Workshop. From 5 years ago:

This excerpt is the old Chairman & CEO, Tom Kirby, speaking directly to investors in a GW annual report. Clearly investors were asking about this. Now we seem to have an answer from Games Workshop: Warhammer TV.

I also do remember that CGI Ultramarine movie a decade ago, so clearly even people withing GW had the idea before. But it's how the Chairman is addressing investors directly. He's even addressing industry things, like when sign over your IP for a film you also have to give up your toy-making rights (because ever since Star Wars, Hollywood wants that sweet, sweet merchandising). Warhammer TV deals with this ongoing investor question while avoiding that issue, so you can see how the idea matured over the years.

I share this not so much because of Warhammer TV per se, but how the GW leadership has been addressing this issue year-after-year. It's like, they're tired of answering the question, so here, have some Warhammer TV, quit bugging us about it. That kinda shows you how institutional investors can push issues through.

+++ How institutional investors influence share price (it's actually "A.I.") +++

You've probably seen on TV the trading floor, with those weird kiosks with the computers, guys wearing dorky vests shouting "BUY, SELL, BUY, SELL!" Fun Fact - people generally stopped doing that years ago except FOR TV, like for the B-roll footage on cable TV, as the vast, vast majority of trades are now automated. There's whole teams of people writing computer algorithms for this, what they call "A.I." but there's nothing intelligent about it...but it is kinda artificial. Jeff Bezos of Amazon and the world's-most-expensive-divorce-settlement-ever started out doing this and was apparently really good at it.

I'm generalising, and this is just purely hypothetical, but here's how it works, and how it pertains to GW:

• start off with actual valuation of a company, creating entry (or buy) and exit (or sell) points
• then maybe adjust it because worldwide logistics is a mess, people don't know if Xmas presents will arrive by Xmas, -x%
• then maybe adjust it more for manufacturers because of energy shortages everywhere, -y%
• then maybe adjust it even more if it's a UK company, because of complications from Brexit, -z%

I wouldn't go so far as to say they're being scientific, but they're trying to be systematic. Those x, y, z % adjustment values, they're actually called "adjustments" and are part of the profession. People can and do debate how much x, y, z are worth, but I do think people agree those are factors. And there are many, many more coefficients. I saw one brainy dude had so many columns he broke Excel, it was awesome...and he still got his forecast completely wrong. It's not easy.

I share this with you because we Warhammer players know Mathammer and its limitations. Institutional investors are a bit too Mathammer-y for my liking, they know it, but have yet to pay for a truly sentient A.I. to do their job for them better.

What I want to illustrate is, in my experience, institutional investors aren't out to deliberately screw individual investors...if only because hedge fund guys are too self-centred to notice anyone but themselves and their bonuses . However, individual investors are trampled just because institutional investors are so damn big. Their portfolios are in the multi-trillions, which make them rich enough to be countries RIGHT below the US and China, even above Japan and Germany and the UK.

It's like the biggest game of Mathammer ever...with all the inherent flaws of relying on Mathammer too much.

[LameBeard]

I want the job where you get to moan at CEOs! Although now I think about it, my wife might be the perfect person for that job …

[MegaVolt87]

I want the job where you get to moan at CEOs! Although now I think about it, my wife might be the perfect person for that job …

 

Depending on your job in the white collar world, even at a lower level there are opportunities to badger such important people, especially within your organization.  Still, I recommend grinding the social skills tree and professional knowledge skill trees for your player character to ensure you still get your weekly quest rewards from your faction if you need to do it.

 

 GW's diversification I would guess moves those stats on the relevant metrics for institutional investors to make them more interested in GW than currently. That shareholder stats disclosure is going to look interesting in the next five years IMO. Same with the board of directors. My concern is the Titanicus and Aeronautica product rumours of cut support. Too much of that will erode support and confidence from the community in new games/ products outside the main ones. Necromunda was itself dropped as apart of the initial SG cull/ I could see GW doubling down on SG prices as a result to keep up returns in the face of less consumer confidence in new SG offerings. 

[slitth]

I don't think there is a problem with the prices.

 

Yes, the are expensive and that leads me to buy few models because

A. because a model is more expensive. So I less for my money.

B. there is something that cost the same and might be more interesting or cost effective.

In short I use less money on GW produces. But that GW problem and not mine.

 

But how can the hobby get around the prices?

 

3D printing is an option, as long as it not a one-to-one copy of an existence model.

Is should be use to create something new or add to something that already is.

Like new heads to space marines or a imperial guard infantry model of the many themes that is not in production.

 

 

You can buy 3rd party models. (that is not a one to one copy)

Nearly any knight model can be given a gun and a backpack and that would be a fair space marine in thunder amour substitute.

 

Or you can go low tech proxy. 

Like make a front and back drawing of a space marine, print it and use it a replacement.

A tank is just a front, back and side drawing glued to a box of the right side.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

I remember a time when they did discount sales in stores.

Then you must have been in the hobby about as long as I have.

I remember the store openings… offers like 5 for 4 on blisters or other discounts, or purchasing certain deals to get items free (especially armies from the Battle Reports in White Dwarf… or in Troll magazine!).

 

I look back on that time and recognise we didn’t really have independent stores doing the same discounting we have now - and have the wistful reminiscences over ringing Mail Order… it’s why I still love looking through old copies of WD and similar, because it was of a certain time and nostalgia is a strong force in this hobby.

There was one I remember back in the mid 90's in Edinburgh, there was an event where you bought 3, got cheapest free (I think it was 3?), this was on everything, figures and paints.

I'm not sure if it was an anniversary thing, or if it was because they were changing something. It might have been when they changed from 'metal' to 'white metal' (ie no lead), so getting rid of stock, or the change from the classic hexagon paint pots to the round crappy ones. Just remember there being a massive bag full of Hawk Turquoise that nobody wanted

And the queue was down the road.

loophole get 4 baneblades and they’re all free because they’re all the cheapest thing!

[Malios]

Honestly, this hobby needs another large competitor in the ring.

 

So step away and try other gaming systems. Let the nostalgia go and see what other companies have to offer.

 

Then come back as one of those niche, Blanchitsu types :p

[Dark Shepherd]

Watched a Northern Exile youtube vid earlier, hes an ex GW manager who has some illuminating stories, bit that jumped out was his manager trainer telling him that sprues cost about £2.50 to make but the boxes cost more than £5

 

Think we'd all be happier if they skipped price increases and didnt bother reboxing anything

[Karhedron]

Honestly, this hobby needs another large competitor in the ring.

 

So step away and try other gaming systems. Let the nostalgia go and see what other companies have to offer.

You make a good point. About 6-7 years ago, X-Wing overtook 40K as the country's most popular tabletop wargame for a couple of years. I think the shock kicked GW out of their complacency and led to the ousting of Kirby and the subsequent turnaround of the GW's fortunes. This led not to direct discounts but to better value starter sets like Dark Imperium.

 

There is nothing like a little healthy competition to keep a company on its toes.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Honestly, this hobby needs another large competitor in the ring.

 

So step away and try other gaming systems. Let the nostalgia go and see what other companies have to offer.

 

Then come back as one of those niche, Blanchitsu types :p

ive been trying to slip into armada, but with the pandemic going on and stocking/shipping issues not a great time lol

[techsoldaten]

Honestly, this hobby needs another large competitor in the ring.

 

So step away and try other gaming systems. Let the nostalgia go and see what other companies have to offer.

 

Then come back as one of those niche, Blanchitsu types

 

If your definition of competitor includes anything that competes with GW for dollars, that should include computer games.

 

By that measure, they succeed despite stiff competition.

[MegaVolt87]

 

Honestly, this hobby needs another large competitor in the ring.

 

So step away and try other gaming systems. Let the nostalgia go and see what other companies have to offer.

 

Then come back as one of those niche, Blanchitsu types

 

If your definition of competitor includes anything that competes with GW for dollars, that should include computer games.

 

By that measure, they succeed despite stiff competition.

 

 

GW is already entering the ring for vidya. I am just waiting to see the primaris Lt Fortnite tie in.