GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[excelite]

 

 

 

 

Threadomancy

 

So with the price increases, I was just wondering what exactly people are paying for in their mind when they buy a unit.

 

Are paying for the plastic itself? Or the abilities/quality of the unit in game?

Personally im willing to accept a 10-15% of price to be influenced by the quality of the unit on table top, but I still view it primarily as “is the physical model(s) enough to justify the cost?

 

What about the rest of you?

I'm paying for time.

 

Even with these price increases, I still feel 40k offers a pretty good Cost to Time ratio for a hobby/leisure activity.

 

Let's use a box of Intercessors as an example. If I pay £36 post-increase and spend 5 hours building them that comes in at about £7.20 per hour of hobby time, which is about equivalent to a cinema ticket in terms of expense (my local cinema charges about £14.50 now). Of course, I don't just get 5 hours of use out of those Intercessors. If I then use them in a game, that's another 3 hours of hobby time out of them. All of a sudden the cost per hour of hobby time starts to drop considerably. The more games you add on, the more the cost per hour goes down.

 

(Of course, the actual plastic content, utility in games, aesthetics of the minis etc also comes into it as well)

 

Obviously this does vary from product to product (a character mini for example offers a worse cost to time ratio initially for example), but I feel it still averages out pretty well.

Out of interest is there a point a specific point you would say it's not good value.

 

Sub question, do you know the exact £ that would be?

And would you keep playing/paying reluctantly or just pack it?

I see it pretty much the same as rwjp, as I’m a slow painter and like to take my time to try new things I usually average out at 0.5-1€ / hour until the first game is even played (excluding paint/basing material).

 

For me personally there currently is not a specific value where I’d say I drop everything and move on. but as it is right now, it’s not close to any other of my hobbies in terms of expenses and therefore I haven’t thought about that…

 

Hypothetically speaking: if it would come close and I would have to make a choice as I can’t afford one of my hobbies, obviously I would drop the one that gives the least in return… be it usefulness, relaxing factor, space requirements or whatever might matter at that point in time

[RWJP]

 

Out of interest is there a point a specific point you would say it's not good value.

 

 

Sub question, do you know the exact £ that would be?

And would you keep playing/paying reluctantly or just pack it?

 

Brilliant question... Honestly, I don't know!

 

Theoretically yes, there probably is a point where it stops being a good value but based on my current personal situation I haven't found that point yet. 

 

40k is the only hobby I have that I regularly spend on (my other hobbies like Airsoft, Photography and PC gaming have a high buy in cost, but very low recurring costs) so I've got a fair bit of leeway on my budget/affordability/value view of things.

[The Neverborn]

For myself 40k is probably the most expensive hobby I have in a way.

 

Other than 40k, I bodybuild (lean), Play Dungeons and Dragons, Read, Cook, Bake and Play Video Games.

 

Body Building, Cooking and Baking all run together; my gym is £38 pm and I spend around 36 hours a month there, when you rolling in all the food i make and eat (£350 p/m) it's probably more than 40k, but i'm around 14.5% body fat and although it costs more, I place a greater value on my physical health.

 

D&D is free, I typically spend  very little p/h on a game as it get them second hand and/or heavily discounted years after release. Reading is very cheap indeed.

 

For myself the current GW price structure is at the point where i'm buying it reluctantly.  I've asked my club(s) about switch to mantic, but everyone is too heavily invested in GW... sunk cost fallacy etc etc.  

 

My current MO is that i'll buy GW stuff as a last resort, so proxy/3D prints then if I can't find a suitable model and/or I really like the GW ones I'll buy them.

 

The point ergo the point I made in my "questionable morality" post earlier. If I don't agree with the way something is, I'm not going to fall in line. I'll find another way. Of course this does not extent to things with fatal consequences.

 

I'm pretty sure they are people that will pay £100 for 5 intercessors.

 

And as I've said before. We will soon see two camps, those that will get knock off models and those that never will.

[Wulf Vengis]

I buy my kits based on personal preference.

I buy secondhand and used items.

I won't pay GW unless something comes up I absolutely can't resist or can't find elsewhere. These sellers have already paid GW for the kits i bought and i usually pay less than GWs prices.

I buy kits from other non-related manufacturers.

I buy kits from 3rd party companies that make unofficial bits and kits for 40k.

The only kits I own that are recasts or 3d prints of gw models are my Dreadnought Drop Pods for 2 justifiable reasons (in my mind at least): 1. When i went to FW they were sold out. 2. When i went to FW the price was 80$usd per pod. Sorry but that's laughably overpriced for what the kit is. (I purchased a contemptor and it's weapons from FW at the same time as i couldn't find one elsewhere.)

I save these things until I'm ready build something. Then when the bug bites i build and paint something.

I don't play current edition rules this edition is a train wreck.

I make rules based on the previous 8 editions for my house table.

 

GW priced me out the day they raised prices then unveiled the new bronze monument out front of their building.

And of course the primaris thing...

 

Nuff said.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Wulf Vengis

[Imren]

I play only 30k and I used to buy FW. Nowadays I turn to FW only for decals and books. Which is quite rare. I'd jump like a starved wolf on a sheep if FW re-released the Blackshield decal sheet. But they won't.

 

So nowadays I buy models from recasters, 3rd party producers (Kromlech, Tortuga bay, Artel W, wargames excluse etc) and 3D-printers (pop goes the monkey etc).

[Dark Shepherd]

This is anecdotal/subjective but between prices, inflation, and edition churn youd have to think that all that affects people starting a different army or other GW games

 

Trade sales have gone from 52 to 57% in the last reported 18 months. And that includes some releases that were very limited to FLGS. Youd have to hope their takeaway is people like discounts/value

[excelite]

This is anecdotal/subjective but between prices, inflation, and edition churn youd have to think that all that affects people starting a different army or other GW games

 

Trade sales have gone from 52 to 57% in the last reported 18 months. And that includes some releases that were very limited to FLGS. Youd have to hope their takeaway is people like discounts/value

I myself try to avoid buying direct. Obviously 20% off is one reason, but another, even more impactful one is that orders take forever to dispatch from the French warehouse and 3rd party is simply faster as well.

 

Usually I get a notice that the shipping label was created on the same day/day after, but nonetheless the package is not handed to ups for at least a week (and that is for in stock non-preorder stuff). This is simply a no-go and simply leaves no reason to buy from their webstore aside from online only items

[Matcap86]

I just assigned an amount a month I'm willing to spend on GW products (currently around 50 euro) and stick to that. I'm usually barely able to build and paint a box to my preferred standard in that time so it works out alright. Sometimes I'll get a bigger box and then don't buy anything else for the next 3 months. And very rarely I'll buy a project in one go (like a combo Christmas Battleforce+Combat patrol) and that tides me over for more than half a year if not longer. 

 

Price increases barely impact this and after 10 years I've still got tons of minis to paint and build. I feel like a lot of people are looking at this going, how much is it going to cost me to keep buying every month. I find it healthier to look at what am I willing to pay in my budget and what can I get for that?  

[phandaal]

 

This is anecdotal/subjective but between prices, inflation, and edition churn youd have to think that all that affects people starting a different army or other GW games

 

Trade sales have gone from 52 to 57% in the last reported 18 months. And that includes some releases that were very limited to FLGS. Youd have to hope their takeaway is people like discounts/value

I myself try to avoid buying direct. Obviously 20% off is one reason, but another, even more impactful one is that orders take forever to dispatch from the French warehouse and 3rd party is simply faster as well.

 

Usually I get a notice that the shipping label was created on the same day/day after, but nonetheless the package is not handed to ups for at least a week (and that is for in stock non-preorder stuff). This is simply a no-go and simply leaves no reason to buy from their webstore aside from online only items

Buying from online stores with a discount and free shipping is a no brainer. So much less expensive in the long run.

[excelite]

 

 

This is anecdotal/subjective but between prices, inflation, and edition churn youd have to think that all that affects people starting a different army or other GW games

 

Trade sales have gone from 52 to 57% in the last reported 18 months. And that includes some releases that were very limited to FLGS. Youd have to hope their takeaway is people like discounts/value

I myself try to avoid buying direct. Obviously 20% off is one reason, but another, even more impactful one is that orders take forever to dispatch from the French warehouse and 3rd party is simply faster as well.

 

Usually I get a notice that the shipping label was created on the same day/day after, but nonetheless the package is not handed to ups for at least a week (and that is for in stock non-preorder stuff). This is simply a no-go and simply leaves no reason to buy from their webstore aside from online only items

Buying from online stores with a discount and free shipping is a no brainer. So much less expensive in the long run.

Tbh, I wouldn’t mind buying from a local lgs, but the only one is a GW store that has 2 tables and local gaming scene usually meets up in a pub instead…

[Dark Shepherd]

 

 

This is anecdotal/subjective but between prices, inflation, and edition churn youd have to think that all that affects people starting a different army or other GW games

 

Trade sales have gone from 52 to 57% in the last reported 18 months. And that includes some releases that were very limited to FLGS. Youd have to hope their takeaway is people like discounts/value

I myself try to avoid buying direct. Obviously 20% off is one reason, but another, even more impactful one is that orders take forever to dispatch from the French warehouse and 3rd party is simply faster as well.

 

Usually I get a notice that the shipping label was created on the same day/day after, but nonetheless the package is not handed to ups for at least a week (and that is for in stock non-preorder stuff). This is simply a no-go and simply leaves no reason to buy from their webstore aside from online only items

Buying from online stores with a discount and free shipping is a no brainer. So much less expensive in the long run.

People are very much in that mode these days. Some people like to support their local GW, have mates working there etc, found it handy to have stuff delivered to store, or all 3 in my case.

However, I read a tonne of Black Library books, but if theyre going from €12.50 to €14 for a small paperback I'm going to the book depository. Omnibus' get better once again :)

[phandaal]

That is a good point. Got to balance the desire for cheapness with supporting the local game shops.

 

The two official GW stores in my area are OK but they also only have two tables, never offer discounts, and the managers are friendly but relentlessly try to upsell any purchase.

 

The FLGS's in my area are mostly great though.

[Uprising]

I just assigned an amount a month I'm willing to spend on GW products (currently around 50 euro) and stick to that. I'm usually barely able to build and paint a box to my preferred standard in that time so it works out alright. Sometimes I'll get a bigger box and then don't buy anything else for the next 3 months. And very rarely I'll buy a project in one go (like a combo Christmas Battleforce+Combat patrol) and that tides me over for more than half a year if not longer. 

 

Price increases barely impact this and after 10 years I've still got tons of minis to paint and build. I feel like a lot of people are looking at this going, how much is it going to cost me to keep buying every month. I find it healthier to look at what am I willing to pay in my budget and what can I get for that?  

See this person gets it.  Always have a budget.  Good job.  

[Antarius]

I certainly have some point where I say "nah", but it depends on too many factors to be able to completely define (cost, product, "need", personal taste, level of "cash flushness", how I feel that particular day, etc. etc.).

 

I have pretty much stopped playing the "bigger" games (40K and AoS), partly because of the amount of expensive minis needed for an army.

 

I definitely turn to 3rd party products (and prints), if I feel they match the quality of the GW alternative and are competitively priced, but I won't buy recasts unless it's the only way to get a mini (e.g. I'd consider buying a recast of an OOP mini, but nothing else). Recasters of current products, much like ebay scalpers, are basically parasitic scum and I can't understand why people would ever defend them (I can understand why people would buy from them, but that's another thing entirely).

Edited February 11, 2022 by Antarius

[spessmarine]

It would be more palatable if these hikes weren't so often.

IIRC in 2019 there were some fat increases too and some in 2020 as well only skipping 2021.

 

a reminder

https://spikeybits.com/2019/07/breaking-news-gw-announces-2019-price-increases.html

[Wulf Vengis]

There was also a price increase in each of those years if iirc.

Definitely in 2021, because my friend bought a bunch of Death Guard and Nurgle demons as his return to the hobby, only to have the price go up and lose interest two months later.

[Antarius]

They did skip an "annual price increase ( :) / :( that that's a thing) one of these years, although I can't recall whether it was '20 or '21 (I just don't have a sense time anymore post-lockdown...).

A slightly related thing that I got to think about is that GW must surely have an "a fool and his money" department, where they think up exorbitantly priced non-essential "extras" (such as the faction dice) for people who have lots of money and don't really care, as long as they get to buy fun/silly GW stuff with it?
Not that I think there's necessarily anything wrong with that - in fact, my initial annoyance at the price of some items pretty much evaporated once I thought "Ok, that's just not aimed at me, I guess".

The main problem that I have is the price of "essentials" (in the sense that any hobby product can be said to be essential). I think the recentish trend of free core rules and "getting started" and similar bundles that made it easy to get into the hobby - or just into a new system or faction - without a huge buy-in was a great move. I'll admit to being somewhat discouraged at the price of "combat patrols" and the recent battleboxes and I do worry that we're heading back to the times of prohibitively priced buy-in costs for new players.

[MARK0SIAN]

They did skip an "annual price increase ( :) / :( that that's a thing) one of these years, although I can't recall whether it was '20 or '21 (I just don't have a sense time anymore post-lockdown...).

 

A slightly related thing that I got to think about is that GW must surely have an "a fool and his money" department, where they think up exorbitantly priced non-essential "extras" (such as the faction dice) for people who have lots of money and don't really care, as long as they get to buy fun/silly GW stuff with it?

Not that I think there's necessarily anything wrong with that - in fact, my initial annoyance at the price of some items pretty much evaporated once I thought "Ok, that's just not aimed at me, I guess".

 

The main problem that I have is the price of "essentials" (in the sense that any hobby product can be said to be essential). I think the recentish trend of free core rules and "getting started" and similar bundles that made it easy to get into the hobby - or just into a new system or faction - without a huge buy-in was a great move. I'll admit to being somewhat discouraged at the price of "combat patrols" and the recent battleboxes and I do worry that we're heading back to the times of prohibitively priced buy-in costs for new players.

I think the problem is going to be more acute for those who fall into the ‘ready for the next steps’ bracket. Like you said, the buy in for new customers into the various game systems is actually pretty reasonable. The problem is that the value then immediately falls off a cliff as soon as you’re ready to expand from that point. The costs just immediately jump straight up, there’s no good value ‘next step’ in most cases.

 

I think the longer term issue will not be attracting new players but retaining them past that initial buy in. I really think both the consumer and GW would benefit from some value expansions to the initial buy in such as army bundles with a discount or combat patrol expansion sets.

[excelite]

… or combat patrol expansion sets.

Didn’t the last battleforce boxes complement their combat patrols quite well?

 

But in general you’re right, it would be nice to have some equivalent of those that are here to stay (maybe on yearly/ bi-yearly/ once per edition refresher schedule?)

[MARK0SIAN]

 

… or combat patrol expansion sets.

Didn’t the last battleforce boxes complement their combat patrols quite well?

 

But in general you’re right, it would be nice to have some equivalent of those that are here to stay (maybe on yearly/ bi-yearly/ once per edition refresher schedule?)

Yeah they did, they’re exactly what we need but always available and for every faction :)

[Evil Eye]

I definitely turn to 3rd party products (and prints), if I feel they match the quality of the GW alternative and are competitively priced, but I won't buy recasts unless it's the only way to get a mini (e.g. I'd consider buying a recast of an OOP mini, but nothing else). Recasters of current products, much like ebay scalpers, are basically parasitic scum and I can't understand why people would ever defend them (I can understand why people would buy from them, but that's another thing entirely).

This is basically how I feel about it. Recasts of OOP models, especially farcically rare ones like old FW stuff, are fair game, because GW/FW aren't losing any money on a purchase of a reproduction of a model they barely sold any of and no longer produce- especially if A: the thing doesn't have a direct equivalent at all in the current range (some of the old terrain pieces for instance) or B: if the closest equivalent is so far removed from the model aesthetically that they might as well be completely different products (nobody who seeks out a recast of the old FW Dreadnoughts is going to be buying them as a cheap alternative to the Helbrute kit, for instance- they'll be buying them because they like it more than the Helbrute!). Heck, even the staff at the Norwich GW (where ironically enough FW isn't allowed due to odd edicts from on high) had no particular gripes with the idea of buying recast OOP models when I last went in there, and they work for GW!

As far as 3rd party alternatives, be they 3D printed or traditionally cast, there's no real ethical issue IMO. It's no different from me buying a bottle of Vallejo paint, or using a piece of a broken figure for a conversion or whatever, and back in ye olden days it wasn't just accepted, but expected- Black Orcs were an excuse to field a different, slightly larger sculpt of Orcs alongside Citadel offerings for instance.

 

What? Oh yes, prices.

 

I'm getting a bit sick of the skyrocketing prices myself. I don't have a huge amount of money right now, and living by myself I do have bills to pay. The sheer speed at which prices are increasing is getting a touch on the silly side now, and whilst I'm not of the "BOYCOTT GW" mindset, I'm increasingly acquiring what GW minis I do get from my FLGS or other more affordable sources. I'm flat-out intending on buying a 3D printer as quite aside from anything else I do want to design my own miniatures, and when I do get one and learn how to use it, I will definitely be supplementing my collection with it!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

Threadomancy

 

So with the price increases, I was just wondering what exactly people are paying for in their mind when they buy a unit.

 

Are paying for the plastic itself? Or the abilities/quality of the unit in game?

Personally im willing to accept a 10-15% of price to be influenced by the quality of the unit on table top, but I still view it primarily as “is the physical model(s) enough to justify the cost?

 

What about the rest of you?

I'm paying for time.

 

Even with these price increases, I still feel 40k offers a pretty good Cost to Time ratio for a hobby/leisure activity.

 

Let's use a box of Intercessors as an example. If I pay £36 post-increase and spend 5 hours building them that comes in at about £7.20 per hour of hobby time, which is about equivalent to a cinema ticket in terms of expense (my local cinema charges about £14.50 now). Of course, I don't just get 5 hours of use out of those Intercessors. If I then use them in a game, that's another 3 hours of hobby time out of them. All of a sudden the cost per hour of hobby time starts to drop considerably. The more games you add on, the more the cost per hour goes down.

 

(Of course, the actual plastic content, utility in games, aesthetics of the minis etc also comes into it as well)

 

Obviously this does vary from product to product (a character mini for example offers a worse cost to time ratio initially for example), but I feel it still averages out pretty well.

that’s the weirdest take I’ve ever heard on this subject lol

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

Threadomancy

 

So with the price increases, I was just wondering what exactly people are paying for in their mind when they buy a unit.

 

Are paying for the plastic itself? Or the abilities/quality of the unit in game?

Personally im willing to accept a 10-15% of price to be influenced by the quality of the unit on table top, but I still view it primarily as “is the physical model(s) enough to justify the cost?

 

What about the rest of you?

I'm paying for time.

 

Even with these price increases, I still feel 40k offers a pretty good Cost to Time ratio for a hobby/leisure activity.

 

Let's use a box of Intercessors as an example. If I pay £36 post-increase and spend 5 hours building them that comes in at about £7.20 per hour of hobby time, which is about equivalent to a cinema ticket in terms of expense (my local cinema charges about £14.50 now). Of course, I don't just get 5 hours of use out of those Intercessors. If I then use them in a game, that's another 3 hours of hobby time out of them. All of a sudden the cost per hour of hobby time starts to drop considerably. The more games you add on, the more the cost per hour goes down.

 

(Of course, the actual plastic content, utility in games, aesthetics of the minis etc also comes into it as well)

 

Obviously this does vary from product to product (a character mini for example offers a worse cost to time ratio initially for example), but I feel it still averages out pretty well.

Out of interest is there a point a specific point you would say it's not good value.

 

Sub question, do you know the exact £ that would be?

And would you keep playing/paying reluctantly or just pack it?

I see it pretty much the same as rwjp, as I’m a slow painter and like to take my time to try new things I usually average out at 0.5-1€ / hour until the first game is even played (excluding paint/basing material).

 

For me personally there currently is not a specific value where I’d say I drop everything and move on. but as it is right now, it’s not close to any other of my hobbies in terms of expenses and therefore I haven’t thought about that…

 

Hypothetically speaking: if it would come close and I would have to make a choice as I can’t afford one of my hobbies, obviously I would drop the one that gives the least in return… be it usefulness, relaxing factor, space requirements or whatever might matter at that point in time

what hobbies do you have that this is cheapest?

The most expensive hobbies I currently have, also provide a monetary return on that investment.

[The Neverborn]

What? Oh yes, prices.

 

I'm getting a bit sick of the skyrocketing prices myself. I don't have a huge amount of money right now, and living by myself I do have bills to pay. The sheer speed at which prices are increasing is getting a touch on the silly side now, and whilst I'm not of the "BOYCOTT GW" mindset, I'm increasingly acquiring what GW minis I do get from my FLGS or other more affordable sources. I'm flat-out intending on buying a 3D printer as quite aside from anything else I do want to design my own miniatures, and when I do get one and learn how to use it, I will definitely be supplementing my collection with it!

 

 

I'm extremely sympathetic to people that enjoy the hobby but can't afford it. I'd expect that the more the prices rise this will be coming an increasing large share of the community.

 

I can already hear the retort of "play something else" or "just buy what you can afford, - if you can't afford a 40k/AOS army or Kill team then don't buy it"

 

I think the poor people deserve to have fun too, a person's socioeconomic status shouldn't exclude them from a group. It's also just the reality that most clubs play only or mostly only GW products.

 

So if recasts 3D prints allow you to join in, you've got my blessing. And I will be joining you.

 

[excelite]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Threadomancy

 

So with the price increases, I was just wondering what exactly people are paying for in their mind when they buy a unit.

 

Are paying for the plastic itself? Or the abilities/quality of the unit in game?

Personally im willing to accept a 10-15% of price to be influenced by the quality of the unit on table top, but I still view it primarily as “is the physical model(s) enough to justify the cost?

 

What about the rest of you?

I'm paying for time.

 

Even with these price increases, I still feel 40k offers a pretty good Cost to Time ratio for a hobby/leisure activity.

 

Let's use a box of Intercessors as an example. If I pay £36 post-increase and spend 5 hours building them that comes in at about £7.20 per hour of hobby time, which is about equivalent to a cinema ticket in terms of expense (my local cinema charges about £14.50 now). Of course, I don't just get 5 hours of use out of those Intercessors. If I then use them in a game, that's another 3 hours of hobby time out of them. All of a sudden the cost per hour of hobby time starts to drop considerably. The more games you add on, the more the cost per hour goes down.

 

(Of course, the actual plastic content, utility in games, aesthetics of the minis etc also comes into it as well)

 

Obviously this does vary from product to product (a character mini for example offers a worse cost to time ratio initially for example), but I feel it still averages out pretty well.

Out of interest is there a point a specific point you would say it's not good value.

 

Sub question, do you know the exact £ that would be?

And would you keep playing/paying reluctantly or just pack it?

I see it pretty much the same as rwjp, as I’m a slow painter and like to take my time to try new things I usually average out at 0.5-1€ / hour until the first game is even played (excluding paint/basing material).

 

For me personally there currently is not a specific value where I’d say I drop everything and move on. but as it is right now, it’s not close to any other of my hobbies in terms of expenses and therefore I haven’t thought about that…

 

Hypothetically speaking: if it would come close and I would have to make a choice as I can’t afford one of my hobbies, obviously I would drop the one that gives the least in return… be it usefulness, relaxing factor, space requirements or whatever might matter at that point in time

what hobbies do you have that this is cheapest?

The most expensive hobbies I currently have, also provide a monetary return on that investment.

Not sure if that really matters, but in the summer I spend more on motorbike road-trips and in the winter for homeautomstion/self hosting projects than toy soldiers…

 

The thing is: warhammer is not Pokémon, i don’t have to have everything with a warhammer logo on it. And buying just some models preferably in boxed sets keeps it cheap.

 

Given we usually play 500/1000 pts or killteam no huge investment is necessary.

 

Also, I don’t buy anything resin or metal or old models in general keeps the temptation at bay and things cheap