GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[Halandaar]

that’s the weirdest take I’ve ever heard on this subject lol

It makes a degree of sense to me; I get more "entertainment" hours per pound spent on 40k across the building, painting and gaming done with each kit than I do on many of the other things enjoy doing; both live music and live sport offer a worse "return" for money spent (especially if your team loses or the support bands suck), cinema largely the same.

 

Video games can be a mixed bag obviously depending on how many hours you get out of them. Even with all the DLCs bought I'd say Total War Warhammer has been money well spent for the amount of hours play I've had out of it, but then other premium price games have barely held my interest for more than a few hours.

 

The final thing I'd consider a hobby would be playing/writing music, and I find that quite hard to quantify as I've no real idea how many hours I've spent doing it, but the costs to buy the various instruments, amps, effects, hardware, software, consumables and rehearsal/studio time I've paid for over the years is equivalent to (if not higher) than the amount I've spent on 40k, and I certainly get less time to spend on that hobby these days than I do on modelling and painting.

[The Neverborn]

I'm not sure £ per hour is always the best measure of value.

 

My £ per hour of my health and fitness is much "worse" than Warhammer. It's objectivity true that physical health is more important however.

 

Say you're not into fitness,  say international travel instead.

 

The £ per hour of seeing the world could be possibly much worse than say buying 10,000 points of warhammer and spending 10,000s of hours painting it and another 1,000s of hours playing with the models.

 

But I personally, as well as a lot of others i'd expect would say the Value of seeing the world is greater than a table top war game.

 

And so on and so on.

[phandaal]

I'm not sure £ per hour is always the best measure of value.

 

My £ per hour of my health and fitness is much "worse" than Warhammer. It's objectivity true that physical health is more important however.

 

Say you're not into fitness, say international travel instead.

 

The £ per hour of seeing the world could be possibly much worse than say buying 10,000 points of warhammer and spending 10,000s of hours painting it and another 1,000s of hours playing with the models.

 

But I personally, as well as a lot of others i'd expect would say the Value of seeing the world is greater than a table top war game.

 

And so on and so on.

There is also the fact that there are other miniatures which would offer significantly better "money per hour" ratios.

 

I am all about people buying 3rd party if it helps them enjoy the hobby more. And if someone wants to buy a recast because it is prohibitively expensive for them to buy a legitimate version then more power to them.

Edited February 13, 2022 by phandaal

[Halandaar]

I'm not sure £ per hour is always the best measure of value.

 

My £ per hour of my health and fitness is much "worse" than Warhammer. It's objectivity true that physical health is more important however.

 

Say you're not into fitness, say international travel instead.

 

The £ per hour of seeing the world could be possibly much worse than say buying 10,000 points of warhammer and spending 10,000s of hours painting it and another 1,000s of hours playing with the models.

 

But I personally, as well as a lot of others i'd expect would say the Value of seeing the world is greater than a table top war game.

 

And so on and so on.

Right, but I don't think anybody could reasonably argue that international travel and Warhammer are competing against each other for the same time and money. It's not like you can choose to spend £35 for a few hours backpacking around Asia is it? Apples and oranges.

[MARK0SIAN]

I'm not sure £ per hour is always the best measure of value.

 

My £ per hour of my health and fitness is much "worse" than Warhammer. It's objectivity true that physical health is more important however.

 

Say you're not into fitness, say international travel instead.

 

The £ per hour of seeing the world could be possibly much worse than say buying 10,000 points of warhammer and spending 10,000s of hours painting it and another 1,000s of hours playing with the models.

 

But I personally, as well as a lot of others i'd expect would say the Value of seeing the world is greater than a table top war game.

 

And so on and so on.

Whilst those points are valid, we are in a thread discussing the cost of the hobby and whether it’s a problem. In that context, the cost of Warhammer versus how many hours enjoyment you get out of that cost is a pretty good way to look at it. That enjoyment versus the enjoyment or benefit of very different hobbies is way too subjective to be meaningful. Edited February 13, 2022 by MARK0SIAN

[excelite]

 

I'm not sure £ per hour is always the best measure of value.

 

My £ per hour of my health and fitness is much "worse" than Warhammer. It's objectivity true that physical health is more important however.

 

Say you're not into fitness, say international travel instead.

 

The £ per hour of seeing the world could be possibly much worse than say buying 10,000 points of warhammer and spending 10,000s of hours painting it and another 1,000s of hours playing with the models.

 

But I personally, as well as a lot of others i'd expect would say the Value of seeing the world is greater than a table top war game.

 

And so on and so on.

Right, but I don't think anybody could reasonably argue that international travel and Warhammer are competing against each other for the same time and money. It's not like you can choose to spend £35 for a few hours backpacking around Asia is it? Apples and oranges.

You could do a trip to Asia or buy a new army (new year new army, I’m looking at you)…

[The Neverborn]

 

I'm not sure £ per hour is always the best measure of value.

 

My £ per hour of my health and fitness is much "worse" than Warhammer. It's objectivity true that physical health is more important however.

 

Say you're not into fitness, say international travel instead.

 

The £ per hour of seeing the world could be possibly much worse than say buying 10,000 points of warhammer and spending 10,000s of hours painting it and another 1,000s of hours playing with the models.

 

But I personally, as well as a lot of others i'd expect would say the Value of seeing the world is greater than a table top war game.

 

And so on and so on.

Whilst those points are valid, we are in a thread discussing the cost of the hobby and whether it’s a problem. In that context, the cost of Warhammer versus how many hours enjoyment you get out of that cost is a pretty good way to look at it. That enjoyment versus the enjoyment or benefit of very different hobbies is way too subjective to be meaningful.

 

Fair enough, I got side tracked with video games and other activities, though I'm forced to agree with you that a cost of a video games is a more comparable to Warhammer than a trip to where-ever.

 

I do feel that although my point was poorly made that £ per hour isn't the only or ultimate measure of a good investment/value.

[Halandaar]

You could do a trip to Asia or buy a new army (new year new army, I’m looking at you)…

While true, I can't imagine there are many instances where somebody would genuinely be choosing between those two options. We might as well be discussing how people could be trying to choose between buying Titan from Forgeworld or paying their rent and therefore how Warhammer is obviously bad value; it might be possible, but it's not a reasonable comparison.

[Halandaar]

I do feel that although my point was poorly made that £ per hour isn't the only or ultimate measure of a good investment/value.

For sure, I don't disagree on that, but it's going to be down to individuals to weight those £s per hour against their own preferences and not for others to dictate it. It was initially raised as one person's own assessment of what value they get versus their other hobbies and straight away another user is basically replying "lol no"; like I can't tell you that your preference to spend money at the gym is wrong just because it's expensive, because it's YOUR preference. Equally, we shouldn't have people here telling others that their own internal logic for what value they get from their hobbies is wrong.

 

In my own comparison earlier I said live music compared unfavorably to Warhammer in terms of value, but only in the raw ""£/hour spent doing it sense. In reality I'd always rather spend £40 going to a gig than on Heavy Intercessors or whatever because I personally value it more highly. The £/h thing is only really useful when comparing between two things you have an equal preference for. Like for me, I like Warhammer and video games equally, but I almost always get better value out of money spent on Warhammer. It's useful for me to compare them in that way, for others it maybe seems like nonsense.

[excelite]

 

You could do a trip to Asia or buy a new army (new year new army, I’m looking at you)…

While true, I can't imagine there are many instances where somebody would genuinely be choosing between those two options. We might as well be discussing how people could be trying to choose between buying Titan from Forgeworld or paying their rent and therefore how Warhammer is obviously bad value; it might be possible, but it's not a reasonable comparison.

Sure this is an edge case (in reply to the other comment), but as you noted everybody’s value is somewhere specific and individually set.

 

I think the general argument still stands. Everybody has a set amount of expendable cash and every company that tries to tap into that competes. Be it toy soldiers, travel or computer games.

 

To come back around to this threads topic: I don’t think this is an issue at all. Having to choose is part of life and natural.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

that’s the weirdest take I’ve ever heard on this subject lol

It makes a degree of sense to me; I get more "entertainment" hours per pound spent on 40k across the building, painting and gaming done with each kit than I do on many of the other things enjoy doing; both live music and live sport offer a worse "return" for money spent (especially if your team loses or the support bands suck), cinema largely the same.

 

Video games can be a mixed bag obviously depending on how many hours you get out of them. Even with all the DLCs bought I'd say Total War Warhammer has been money well spent for the amount of hours play I've had out of it, but then other premium price games have barely held my interest for more than a few hours.

 

The final thing I'd consider a hobby would be playing/writing music, and I find that quite hard to quantify as I've no real idea how many hours I've spent doing it, but the costs to buy the various instruments, amps, effects, hardware, software, consumables and rehearsal/studio time I've paid for over the years is equivalent to (if not higher) than the amount I've spent on 40k, and I certainly get less time to spend on that hobby these days than I do on modelling and painting.

then video games are a hugely better investments by that standard then. Even if I had paid for apex, at $50 for the game I’ve got a :cuss ton of hours in it. Now compare that to a squad of aggressors or inceptors, $50 for 3 models. Not a lot of time painting or modeling, and time actually playing with them in a game will vary from game to game.

 

It just seems like a weird way to judge this sort of thing.

[The Neverborn]

 

I do feel that although my point was poorly made that £ per hour isn't the only or ultimate measure of a good investment/value.

For sure, I don't disagree on that, but it's going to be down to individuals to weight those £s per hour against their own preferences and not for others to dictate it. It was initially raised as one person's own assessment of what value they get versus their other hobbies and straight away another user is basically replying "lol no"; like I can't tell you that your preference to spend money at the gym is wrong just because it's expensive, because it's YOUR preference. Equally, we shouldn't have people here telling others that their own internal logic for what value they get from their hobbies is wrong.

 

 

Agreed

 

I'd also be surprised however, if everyone's sole or ultimate measure of the value of the hobby, or anything was £ per hour.

 

Though again I'm forced to concede that if it is, it's not "incorrect".  

[MegaVolt87]

GW's expansion into other mediums like videogames, to me implies at least they see their table top games competing with seemingly unrelated leisure/hobbies. In a round about way they want your $ per hour going towards them regardless of format. Its no coincidence that there are quite a few mobile games for Warhammer properties as a result, as an example. Theoretically GW could price itself out of table top on purpose to move its IP to more lucrative markets, Konami has done that and they don't make video games anymore. The UK price adjustment was to be expected, it closes the gap a bit better with other regions and sort of unifies the community a bit better if people are paying very similar amounts for the hobby. Its going to be interesting to see where GW will double down within the next 5 years as we have already seen a lot happen in the past 2-3 years already. 

[Dark Shepherd]

 

 

You could do a trip to Asia or buy a new army (new year new army, I’m looking at you)…

While true, I can't imagine there are many instances where somebody would genuinely be choosing between those two options. We might as well be discussing how people could be trying to choose between buying Titan from Forgeworld or paying their rent and therefore how Warhammer is obviously bad value; it might be possible, but it's not a reasonable comparison.

Sure this is an edge case (in reply to the other comment), but as you noted everybody’s value is somewhere specific and individually set.

 

I think the general argument still stands. Everybody has a set amount of expendable cash and every company that tries to tap into that competes. Be it toy soldiers, travel or computer games.

 

To come back around to this threads topic: I don’t think this is an issue at all. Having to choose is part of life and natural.

A lot of people dont have a set amount of expendable cash though. Bills/outgoings fluctuate. Things go wrong. Some people are paid infrequently/freelance. Some people can and do put aside X amount per paycheque for Warhammer and thats cool (even if they get less bang for their buck)

 

Lots of people are heavily invested in Warhammer and have lots of memories/nostalgia; its like if you were a season ticket holder for the Yankees/Liverpool/Munster and got priced out of that (which happens a lot) or couldnt afford it due to more serious priorities youd be pretty bummed out

Edited February 14, 2022 by Dark Shepherd

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

 

What? Oh yes, prices.

 

I'm getting a bit sick of the skyrocketing prices myself. I don't have a huge amount of money right now, and living by myself I do have bills to pay. The sheer speed at which prices are increasing is getting a touch on the silly side now, and whilst I'm not of the "BOYCOTT GW" mindset, I'm increasingly acquiring what GW minis I do get from my FLGS or other more affordable sources. I'm flat-out intending on buying a 3D printer as quite aside from anything else I do want to design my own miniatures, and when I do get one and learn how to use it, I will definitely be supplementing my collection with it!

 

I'm extremely sympathetic to people that enjoy the hobby but can't afford it. I'd expect that the more the prices rise this will be coming an increasing large share of the community.

 

I can already hear the retort of "play something else" or "just buy what you can afford, - if you can't afford a 40k/AOS army or Kill team then don't buy it"

 

I think the poor people deserve to have fun too, a person's socioeconomic status shouldn't exclude them from a group. It's also just the reality that most clubs play only or mostly only GW products.

 

So if recasts 3D prints allow you to join in, you've got my blessing. And I will be joining you.

I do wish GW did more tiers of products - ie I wish every range had easy to build models that were affordable and which therefore anyone could possibly buy and build. They don't need to be poor quality either - Nighthaunt, Kruleboyz and Thunderstrike have some fantastic high concept etb models too.

[Dark Shepherd]

Damn straight. AOS is not as popular so they offer better value on quite a few things but the ETB kits for 8th seemed incredibly popular and they were largely phased out/not replaced for some reason

[The Neverborn]

I was thinking about the new war zone X new status quo.

 

I seem to remember hearing/reading it's going  to be done every 6 months? Is that true?

 

It's probably not controversial to say that most clubs meet once a week.

 

So your £25 books is good for 26 weeks. Just under a £1 per game.

 

But what if you can only play every other week or once a month?

 

£25 for 6 games does seem like great value to me. I'd day 80% of people I see at my club(s) 40k are over 30, probably 30% over 40. These people have demanding jobs and/or kids/families. A lot of them just can't find the time to play every week. Some of them only play every couple of months. I  get only one person needs the latest edition of the campaign book. If somebody can only play say 1-6 times and is willing to buy the £25 book for it, then i'd tip my hat to them - then raise an eyebrow. But the written material is the easiest to pirate, and has a piratically 100% reduction in cost.

 

I think this is almost daring people to pirate these materials.

[Halandaar]

then video games are a hugely better investments by that standard then

Not necessarily; like anything, their value varies from game to game and player to player. Sure they CAN be better value if you get a lot of playtime out of them, but if you shell out £60 for a AAA game and then only get 6 or 8 hours out of it, it's not great value at all.

 

Even at a cost of £0 Apex holds no value to me at all because it's not the type of game I enjoy playing, for example.

[Firedrake Cordova]

what hobbies do you have that this is cheapest?

Tamiya's 1/35ish scale tank and aircraft kits are at least as expensive as GW's (£35-£120). I would probably argue that at the moment playing PC games is very expensive if you need a new GPU due to the inflated prices they command (it wasn't that long ago that an nVidia x80 card was £400, not £1,000-£2,000), combined with inflation on other components like CPUs and motherboards, as well as AAA games being ~£45 each. Similarly, photography has gotten horrifically expensive due to the GBP:YEN exchange rate, especially if you "need" "fast" or long (or worse, both) lenses. Obviously, you're not upgrading the your body or lens very often, but when it costs £4,000+, and the body to drive it costs £1,000+...

 

Whilst it might sound obvious, the cost of our model habit is largely related to the amount of models we buy (bear with me!). I don't like the design decisions taken in recent editions of 40K/WHFB/AOS, so I don't play them - I either play old editions, or third-party miniature-agnostic games with my GW models (e.g. Rick P's Warlords of Erehwon with my old WHFB models). I also have a preference for skirmish-scale games and ones in the Specialist Games range, so I'm more likely to want to play Warhammer Quest, Necromunda (Community Edition), Aeronautica Imperialis, Battlefleet Gothic, etc, all of which have a lower cost than 40K/AOS due to smaller model counts and no rulebook churn.

 

So ... what am I saying? It's quite nuanced, and depends on the person you're talking about

 

Note that I'm not saying it's a cheap hobby - it isn't.

[Halandaar]

Damn straight. AOS is not as popular so they offer better value on quite a few things but the ETB kits for 8th seemed incredibly popular and they were largely phased out/not replaced for some reason

There's an equivalent sized range of easy-build kits this time around, they just aren't marketed as such. The ATV, Firestrike Turret and Outriders, Necron Warriors, Lokhust Heavy Destroyer and Canoptek Doomstalker all fit the bill. But I agree that there wasn't really any need to discontinue the 8th Edition ETB kits, presumably it was just done to protect sales of the full-price multipart Intercessor, Aggressor, Redemptor and Plague Marine kits.

[Uprising]

Why is this still a topic?  3-D printer gives better choices, cheaper, and customizable.  This reminds me when air brushes started becoming used in the hobby.  Many back then consider it cheating, and not hobby like.  Now its another tool. 

 

At the end of the day, make a budget for the hobby/life, stick to it, and repeat.   Beside its not like younger people are getting into this hobby anyway.  

[chapter master 454]

Why is this still a topic?  3-D printer gives better choices, cheaper, and customizable.  This reminds me when air brushes started becoming used in the hobby.  Many back then consider it cheating, and not hobby like.  Now its another tool. 

 

At the end of the day, make a budget for the hobby/life, stick to it, and repeat.   Beside its not like younger people are getting into this hobby anyway.  

 

And you my fellow frater should find that last line very worrying if you enjoy this hobby. Younger people become the next generation who will whine about the hobby but if there isn't anyone to come after us the hobby will die, a likely with us still trying to enjoy it.

The game needs to be accessible to new players so they can play as well but when prices continue to rise there is going to be less and less new players. In the past pocket money could easily get you some marines if you saved for a little while. Now? Months just to get a squad. This isn't helped by combat patrols going up in price.

 

I mean, I could comment that the other issue isn't just hobby related and is more because of current lack of money within the general public for various reasons that is outside of GWs control but that gets me the melta.

Ultimately, while you need to sell at a profit, you can't make any profit without selling and you can't sell if those you sell to can't buy. If the choice is a warm house or 10 more plastic soldiers a lot of people who are sane will chose the warm house.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

Damn straight. AOS is not as popular so they offer better value on quite a few things but the ETB kits for 8th seemed incredibly popular and they were largely phased out/not replaced for some reason

There's an equivalent sized range of easy-build kits this time around, they just aren't marketed as such. The ATV, Firestrike Turret and Outriders, Necron Warriors, Lokhust Heavy Destroyer and Canoptek Doomstalker all fit the bill. But I agree that there wasn't really any need to discontinue the 8th Edition ETB kits, presumably it was just done to protect sales of the full-price multipart Intercessor, Aggressor, Redemptor and Plague Marine kits.

They arguably fit the bill as ETB kits, without getting bogged down at the definition, but yeah the DISCOUNTED ETB kits probably sold too well Edited February 14, 2022 by Dark Shepherd

[tychobi]

I wonder what the price hikes feel like for the casual hobbyist who just like to paint cool models and buy the lions share of GW product.  The competitive edge of nice models is dulling by the day and their pricing is getting intense. 

[phandaal]

 

 

Damn straight. AOS is not as popular so they offer better value on quite a few things but the ETB kits for 8th seemed incredibly popular and they were largely phased out/not replaced for some reason

There's an equivalent sized range of easy-build kits this time around, they just aren't marketed as such. The ATV, Firestrike Turret and Outriders, Necron Warriors, Lokhust Heavy Destroyer and Canoptek Doomstalker all fit the bill. But I agree that there wasn't really any need to discontinue the 8th Edition ETB kits, presumably it was just done to protect sales of the full-price multipart Intercessor, Aggressor, Redemptor and Plague Marine kits.

They arguably fit the bill as ETB kits, without getting bogged down at the definition, but yeah the DISCOUNTED ETB kits probably sold too well

 

 

The Outriders one is wild too, because you can find the exact same kit on eBay for 50% off thanks to Indomitus. Legit the exact same kit, no difference, twice as much if you get it in a box at the store.

 

Stocked up on a bunch of those kits for Ravenwing conversions and for the day when Outriders themselves become the go-to biker unit instead of vanilla bikes.