Female Custodes, what do you guys think?

[VIth]

Has anyone on this thread read the actual Custodes codex?

-Custodians have same relationship to Emperor as Space Marines to their Primarch.

-“It is known that all Custodians begin their lives as the infant sons of the noble houses of Terra.”

 

So: no.

 

Any “the lore isn’t fixed” rationale to justify female Custodes could equally be applied to Sororitas. There’s no reason to change it other than individuals’ perceived peccadilloes. Insofar as there’s any tangential “science” to this science fantasy universe, we have the self-evident reality of human biology as a guide for which template would more successfully be molded into a super soldier.

[Noserenda]

Has anyone on this thread read the actual Custodes codex?

-Custodians have same relationship to Emperor as Space Marines to their Primarch.

-“It is known that all Custodians begin their lives as the infant sons of the noble houses of Terra.”

 

So: no.

 

Any “the lore isn’t fixed” rationale to justify female Custodes could equally be applied to Sororitas. There’s no reason to change it other than individuals’ perceived peccadilloes. Insofar as there’s any tangential “science” to this science fantasy universe, we have the self-evident reality of human biology as a guide for which template would more successfully be molded into a super soldier.

So i guess  you didnt read the thread then? Or really understand the Primarch:Marine, Emperor:Custodes relationships too well as they are very very different aside from both being leader:follower relationships. 

 

The Fluff isnt fixed either, otherwise Custodes would still be running around topless in leather trousers so.... That argument is irrelevant.

 

To argue that a throwaway line (Again as explained earlier linking more to model availability than anything else) is the exact equivalent to a whole faction quirk is disingenuous too. Tbh given you are using nonsense science and a term like peccadillo you are pretty much arguing in bad faith anyway, i mean i knowwww girls are icky but some of us like a bit of representation in our toy soldiers ;)  

[VIth]

“Nonsense science”: I think what you’re doing is called projection. We can get into muscle mass, bone density, etc, but I suspect you’re not interested in that.

 

And if that’s how you feel about fluff, I look forward to the Ecclessiary inducting men into the Adeptus Sororitas since things are so dire for the Imperium. No reason not to—fluff isn’t fixed.

 

And that’s not a “throw away” line any more than the single anecdote given by ADB is indicative of anything. An out-of-universe anecdote that sounds like it was a proverbial shoulder shrug <<< the prime canon in the 40K universe, ie codex.

 

I don’t think girls are icky. Let me ask you a serious question: do you believe anyone can disagree with you on this subject and not be a misogynist?

[DOGGED]

“Nonsense science”: I think what you’re doing is called projection. We can get into muscle mass, bone density, etc, but I suspect you’re not interested in that.

 

And if that’s how you feel about fluff, I look forward to the Ecclessiary inducting men into the Adeptus Sororitas since things are so dire for the Imperium. No reason not to—fluff isn’t fixed.

 

And that’s not a “throw away” line any more than the single anecdote given by ADB is indicative of anything. An out-of-universe anecdote that sounds like it was a proverbial shoulder shrug <<< the prime canon in the 40K universe, ie codex.

 

I don’t think girls are icky. Let me ask you a serious question: do you believe anyone can disagree with you on this subject and not be a misogynist?

 

You're drifting into an ugly argument based on gender. I can't find anything in Noserenda's comment to even remotely justify such an answer.

 

 

Then, you cited just one bit of the codex and talked about "tangential" science (really, it gets more into the nonsense than in any kind of tangent; talk about Necron biotransference, warp space, then the ork thing, the whole of it, it's just for fun), but forgot that apart to that one mention of "sons", next are "child", "children" or "progeny" which are pretty gender neuter.

 

The codex goes on explaining that while space marines are created by introduction/implantation (so rejection problems are obviously a thing and the whole matter can justify a gender prerequisite), Custodes are the result of a transformation triggered at the cell level (even the soul, it says), "going beyond the purely physical and spiritual".

 

There is in such a process absolutely nothing to which to hold on to deny a female the chance to become a Custodes, except for the fact that there are no female custodes miniatures in production (and this is a direct quote from a well stablished author in the 40K universe; one who is actively creating background for it, the kind of things that end up becoming canon).

 

Also, there are men in the Ecclesiarchy, just not in the Sororitas ranks; the latter because of theirs being a self imposed restriction. That the Sisters of Silence or the Adepta Sororitas recruits only females because of self imposed restrictions is not, never should be, a justification for imposing such a restriction on the Custodes, who, for anything, boast an unrestricted attittude that only seeks improvement to the highest standards.

 

Finally, can you honestly say that last smirky jibe of yours is not just an ad hominem attack? Because honestly, you look as if you are definitely acting in bad faith, trying to make up what seemed to be just a tongue-in-cheek comment (even with a winking smiley) into some kind of discussion on misogyny.

 

So lest you be judged yourself, there's the question:

Do you believe a woman can disagree with you on this subject without you not judging her of accusing you of being a misogynist?

 

Hope you see the absurdity of such proposals.

 

P.S.: just observe the trend of incorporation of female characters and rank & file into GW games and you'll see the whole thing is just a matter of the miniatures being made.

[N1SB]

Hi guys, I'm just trying to stay up for the Warhammer Preview, but I've been thinking about what you guys have been sharing. Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

In fact, I'm deliberately doing so before any more information about the new Dominion box set, just to have a memorandum of my thoughts before and after. And the 1st thing I'm going to do...is actually put aside the reason I posted this topic in the 1st place. Let's take the gender issue out entirely.

+++ Custodes in the 41st Millennium probably shouldn't have such a uniform look +++

This may or may not be even more debated point, I'll just share my honest thoughts here.

The one thing that it seems we're agreeing on is that Custodes are referred to as individually customised transhumans and operated as such. On the other hand, Space Marines, as Legionnaires then as Astartes, were designed along the same template and were in fact meant to be more uniform in nature. 10,000 years have passed, they're spread all over the galaxy, so obviously differences come up. However, if any faction's individual models should have different appearances, it might be Custodes if each is supposed to be a unique work of genetically engineered art.

There are perfectly good reasons why they have a same look. I think back in the Great Crusade era, they had an uniform look to accompany the Emperor as to impress upon worlds being brought into the Imperium the value of Imperial Compliance. And as a relatively new playable faction, they have a limited model range.

However, in the 41st millennium, until Roboute Guilliman gave them a stern talking to Custodes had limited themselves to the Imperial Palace. Some interacted with people outside their order, the many Imperial civil servants and pilgrims, but most were constantly training/practicing/preparing for any sort of invasion. There would probably be even more deviation from a standard look than even Marines, considering each Custodes was supposed to be an individually customised superhuman.

The reference point I have is to something like Deathwatch's appearances. Deathwatch is a single faction of all Space Marines, but what's so interesting about them is they're drawn from individual Chapters with their own styles. There's an overaching uniform look, the black armour and silver left arms, but enough idiosyncrasies to make each look unique. They more or less share the same statlines and stuff, but each fights slightly differently, yet function as a team.

I'll give what's probably an extreme example of what I'm thinking. Here are what's been revealed of the new Stormcast from the AoS range I was thinking of kitbashing maybe, I'd treat them as having the same statline and gear after some weapon swaps, but they're obviously different:

This is just the type of thing I was thinking of. It's perhaps the more pertinent point, although not the one I started out with, perhaps the more interesting idea.

+++ No Boobplate +++

Now getting back on topic.

I asked 2 female friends who enjoy the Warhammer 40,000 setting and I found they're neutral on female Custodes, against female Space Marines, and really just want probably female Guardsmen if anything. They don't even like Sororitas so much for a specific reason: they don't like boobplate.

In the words of one, "Boobs are squishy." They'll just go under regular armour. Having 2 big dents here and here just creates a natural indent point in the sternum that will literally guide an opponent's weapon into the heart, or deflect a blade into the abdomen. If anything, in the picture above they'd consider the right model a female.

+++ On modifying the baseline body +++

If enhancing for muscle mass, it's probably easier/cheaper/better to just build upon male body. It was when Brother Dogged brought up Gina Carano, I thought of MMA.

I watch MMA! Female fighters seem to have advantages in at last 2 areas: flexibility and sheer pain tolerance. Initially I thought it's because the women's divisions are not as strong so they're not exerting as much force, but when you see a female fighter's arm get bent backwards at the elbow to the point where even the commentators are confused which way's the arm's pointing, clearly they've got some insane flexibility and pain tolerance.

Obviously...Custodes aren't going to roll Brazilian Jiujitsu on the battlefield. They will, however, use their traditional halberds. Have you ever dueled against a halberd?

I have. I used to practice Kendo, which is like Japanese fencing. Because my professor liked to both humiliate and torment me, he would make me fight against ladies wielding Naginata, the Japanese equivalent of a halberd. We actually had to wear extra shin pads armour because leg strikes were much more likely.

With a polearm, girls can hit you in weird places. Against a guy with the same weapon, it's the same overheard strike or baseball bat swing unless they really specialise in it, and in Kendo the Naginata was usually bequeathed to women. It's something with the waist torque, like how girls are better at hula hoops.

And with both the sword and Naginata, it's not sheer strength that gives them force, it's SPEED. Speed is more important. Flexibility can create speed at weird angles.

The point: if you don't mind treating 40k statlines as an abstraction, like how a unit's Strength stat isn't so much about how much that model can bench, but rather it's striking power, there are definitely benefits to using a female bodyframe as a baseline. They're not doing acrobatics, but they might be using weird halberd strikes.

Then about the pain tolerance, you know how when you enter the Emperor's chambers it's a white-hot blinding light of pain? Maybe that's another advantage.

I'm not too serious about this issue, it's just that MMA got brought up, it got me thinking about when I use to actively practice.

+++ Regarding references in the Codices +++

Our Fraters are right to bring up the lore according to Codices...but our Fraters are also correct in bringing up how Black Library deliberately lampshades what's in the Codices with "here's what really happened." This includes recent things involving the Primaris, so it's not like a retcon.

It goes back to the trope how of the Codices reflect what's known publicly in-universe (if at all) by the Imperium at large. The novels show that sometimes those seemingly set-in-stone details are actually just a cover story to conceal the truth. Then sometimes a Codex points out how the story of Deathwing with Cloud Runner was a lie to ease Dark Angels gradually to talk about the Fallen. =][= Everything You Know Is A Lie =][=. Either way, it's SUPPOSED to be debatable either way, it's the unreliable narrator nature of Warhammer lore. Don't take it personally, it's how the designers made the setting.

In any case, good discussion. I want to see what the Dominion box will bring as potential bitz. Btw, if you want to discuss whether using Stormcast to convert into Custodes, I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

[Sete]

My dude, its your models and hobby, enjoy it as you see fit.

I love conversions. If you want to use those new halberd stormcast (I love halberds) as custodes go for it, they look ace, and they got capes! Add some 40k bling, boom. 3 awesome custodes with that Byzantium vibe. I dig it.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Sete

[DOGGED]

Hi guys, I'm just trying to stay up for the Warhammer Preview, but I've been thinking about what you guys have been sharing.  Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

 

[...]

 

In any case, good discussion.  I want to see what the Dominion box will bring as potential bitz.  Btw, if you want to discuss whether using Stormcast to convert into Custodes, I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

 

Great comment.

 

I was a kendoka too and I had a good many difficulties when fighting a 5 feet tall girl. She constantly tried to get into my guard and when she got there man it was painful to get away because it was all parry-dodge gimme some ground please and she constantly on my heels.

 

Can't but agree on abstractions. Also, regarding muscular mass, I do know small, thinny guys and big, strong girls. I bet a woman with enough training and genetic treatment could beat the :cuss out of anybody.

 

But in the end it's not about discussing the vagaries of the warp with any scientific base. It's about the hobby.

A Custodes with a female head is a female Custodes. With the same statline.

Canon? There were orc cheerleaders once. With. Breasts. And squats. And no Kharadron Overlords. Etc.

[VIth]

 

“Nonsense science”: I think what you’re doing is called projection. We can get into muscle mass, bone density, etc, but I suspect you’re not interested in that.

And if that’s how you feel about fluff, I look forward to the Ecclessiary inducting men into the Adeptus Sororitas since things are so dire for the Imperium. No reason not to—fluff isn’t fixed.

And that’s not a “throw away” line any more than the single anecdote given by ADB is indicative of anything. An out-of-universe anecdote that sounds like it was a proverbial shoulder shrug <<< the prime canon in the 40K universe, ie codex.

I don’t think girls are icky. Let me ask you a serious question: do you believe anyone can disagree with you on this subject and not be a misogynist?

 

You're drifting into an ugly argument based on gender. I can't find anything in Noserenda's comment to even remotely justify such an answer.

 

 

Then, you cited just one bit of the codex and talked about "tangential" science (really, it gets more into the nonsense than in any kind of tangent; talk about Necron biotransference, warp space, then the ork thing, the whole of it, it's just for fun), but forgot that apart to that one mention of "sons", next are "child", "children" or "progeny" which are pretty gender neuter.

 

The codex goes on explaining that while space marines are created by introduction/implantation (so rejection problems are obviously a thing and the whole matter can justify a gender prerequisite), Custodes are the result of a transformation triggered at the cell level (even the soul, it says), "going beyond the purely physical and spiritual".

 

There is in such a process absolutely nothing to which to hold on to deny a female the chance to become a Custodes, except for the fact that there are no female custodes miniatures in production (and this is a direct quote from a well stablished author in the 40K universe; one who is actively creating background for it, the kind of things that end up becoming canon).

 

Also, there are men in the Ecclesiarchy, just not in the Sororitas ranks; the latter because of theirs being a self imposed restriction. That the Sisters of Silence or the Adepta Sororitas recruits only females because of self imposed restrictions is not, never should be, a justification for imposing such a restriction on the Custodes, who, for anything, boast an unrestricted attittude that only seeks improvement to the highest standards.

 

Finally, can you honestly say that last smirky jibe of yours is not just an ad hominem attack? Because honestly, you look as if you are definitely acting in bad faith, trying to make up what seemed to be just a tongue-in-cheek comment (even with a winking smiley) into some kind of discussion on misogyny.

 

So lest you be judged yourself, there's the question:

Do you believe a woman can disagree with you on this subject without you not judging her of accusing you of being a misogynist?

 

Hope you see the absurdity of such proposals.

 

P.S.: just observe the trend of incorporation of female characters and rank & file into GW games and you'll see the whole thing is just a matter of the miniatures being made.

“You're drifting into an ugly argument based on gender. I can't find anything in Noserenda's comment to even remotely justify such an answer.”

 

What *specific* “ugly argument based on gender” do you believe I was “drifting into”? That is a serious question.

 

“Finally, can you honestly say that last smirky jibe of yours is not just an ad hominem attack? Because honestly, you look as if you are definitely acting in bad faith, trying to make up what seemed to be just a tongue-in-cheek comment (even with a winking smiley) into some kind of discussion on misogyny.

 

So lest you be judged yourself, there's the question:

Do you believe a woman can disagree with you on this subject without you not judging her of accusing you of being a misogynist?

 

Hope you see the absurdity of such proposals.”

 

My question is sincere and hardly absurd, your bizarre pearl-clutching response notwithstanding. The comment about misogyny has come up earlier in the thread. I, of course, believe a woman can disagree with me, etc. If calling my comments “bad faith” and making a comment about me thinking girls are “icky” was all entirely tongue-in-cheek as you suggest, I didn’t pick that up, despite winky face. If that was intent then I withdraw my question and apologize for missing the joke. If that is not the case, my question remains.

Edited May 29, 2021 by VIth

[WarriorFish]

It seems this topic has reached the end of its merits, all the more so given it has largely been on subjects already covered and more importantly is falling short of the requirements of respectful and constructive discussion on the B&C.

The rules and mission statement of the B&C are simple and clear, and everyone agreed to follow them when signing up. This is very disappointing as we expect better from our membership.