New Codex Cover & 9th Ed Speculation/Rumours

[BoomWolf]

I'm seriously on the verge of rage quitting here.

GK get a copy of our only special thing of subfaction spells, plus subfaction stratagems we WON'T get, and to top it off our spells get nerfed?!

 

Are they even trying to pretend it's not favoritism any more

[The Yncarne]

Doesn’t empiric trespass affect all your units that attack this power’s target for an entire turn? I’m not seeing the single reroll thing. 

 

totally expecting the time flux thing giving the expected wound change. Still, they said these were their favorite and that’s surely not just marketing right? 

[byrd9999]

Doesn’t empiric trespass affect all your units that attack this power’s target for an entire turn? I’m not seeing the single reroll thing. 

 

totally expecting the time flux thing giving the expected wound change. Still, they said these were their favorite and that’s surely not just marketing right? 

 

You're right, each unit in melee with the spell's target get to re-roll a single wound roll of 1 during that turn. Still not great.

 

Re-roll a failed wound roll would be better. Re-roll all 1s better still. Re-roll all failed would definitely be worth taking.

[MillionsSons]

.

 

Attempted Possession is good for being able to do a Mortal Wound to a unit that (a) might not be visible and (b ) isn't the closest enemy unit. The -2 affects every Psychic Test for the enemy unit for 1 round, can be helpful to stop denies and casting.

 

 

Immediate hot-take with limited possession of the facts: they're okay, maybe worse than what we had in 8th, and I hope these aren't the best.

Only casting.... deny is “deny the witch test”...

These spells are a joke.

I hope this is the “Kabalyte -warriors-now-have-two-attacks!” Type of showcase...

[byrd9999]

 

.

 

Attempted Possession is good for being able to do a Mortal Wound to a unit that (a) might not be visible and (b ) isn't the closest enemy unit. The -2 affects every Psychic Test for the enemy unit for 1 round, can be helpful to stop denies and casting.

 

 

Immediate hot-take with limited possession of the facts: they're okay, maybe worse than what we had in 8th, and I hope these aren't the best.

Only casting.... deny is “deny the witch test”...

These spells are a joke.

I hope this is the “Kabalyte -warriors-now-have-two-attacks!” Type of showcase...

 

 

Well... poop :( 

 

It would be nice if someone at GW had some imagination for what to do with the Thousand Sons faction to make them reasonably fun to play/reasonably competitive.

 

I don't want to be OP, I just want to sling some cool spells.

[Ahzek451]

A lot of these powers wouldn't be as bad if one could cast it more than once. There is some speculation that this might be possible with the wording of one of the grey kight powers being once per phase. The -2 dent is not great, it's useful but highly situational.

[Hathor42]

Only part I'm bummed about is they went with every cult getting a psychic power that only one person can cast every turn instead of them having a added special rule just for them that effects the whole army not just the sorcerers.

 

Other then that I'm just going to wait till I've watched man reads book.

[Prot]

All speculation of course, but the apparent playtester that was dropping hints about terminators, forgefiends, etc. gave the impression that the book was decent but not overpowered. My guess is we will sit somewhere around death guard power level, but surely not drukhari/admech level. Which is more than fine with me. Last thing we need is an overpowered book that gets nerfed and requires FAQ fixes a few weeks out from release. 

 

You know what? I would be over the moon with the Death Guard power level. I believe those guys can play to almost any level and have the list diversity that keeps it interesting while doing so. 

 

I have a bad feeling though. The show of "new" powers today seemed to favour Grey Knights to me. I also really dislike that when it comes to 'fluff rules' they seem to always stick it to Chaos. They mentioned that Grey Knights will bring that edge against Daemonic units. So I'm crossing my fingers it's not the ridiculous smite they had before against Daemons being buffable to the type of levels that means you simply don't take Magnus.

 

Cult of Time got a nerf. I'm not too happy about it because it was my secret sauce. I loved Duplicity for tactical play, but while everyone else on the tournie scene went "magic" I just took my CoT Termie detachment and had a lot of fun with it. It's more expensive to cast now, and can never bring back more than a model. 

 

This disappoints me because it is a 'test' which can be denied of course, and meanwhile I play a Dark Angels player that does it for 'free' with an apothecary on bike, and his tremies have perma 4++, FnP, ObSec, and can't be wounded on a 1-3. I felt this D3 possibility gave me some edge. So that's gone.

 

The attention grabber seems to be the ability to cast what is basically an altered lieutenant buff, but I'm not really liking it personally. 

 

I personally leaned on the power for Survivability. With the increase in denial type mechanisms, it's just a little easier to keep out of range, and make sure you have a better Invuln, or perhaps a -1 to hit....  

 

Anyway I'm really pulling back from the idea of ordering the box set now. It literally was for one model, and the fluff/campaign stuff. I mean the Scarab Occult are the best thing there, and I am playing a game today with our 'current' rules and even with old points I'm sitting at north of 400 points for my Termies. I don't see that changing to 15 models. 

 

With one model (it appears) for 9th edition, I don't think that bodes well. I see a lot of things in the preview that make me believe we just might be more status quo with edited statlines. The one thing I was hoping for was a change to how they structured the Cults, but it looks like they've locked them to detachments from what I can see.

 

So with locked detachments, static power picks during the "muster" phase of the game, I again see the problem of there will be one or two cults that probably outweigh the rest heavily. 

 

I think this is going to come down to the new character. With the way Psychics worked out in 9th, the powers will have to remain mostly in your zone, and the new characters will (as I first suggested) in pairs, maybe even triplicates, in new armies. Essentially 'casting' 2 'litanies' that can't be denied a turn.  Plus they have a psychic power. Not to be a fuddy duddy but unless Ahriman and/or Exalted Sorcs have some -AMAZING- new psychic mechanisms built into them, this is going to be what I would field. Granted this is with very limited knowledge. The saving grace for other characters would be like I said, some amazing psychic buffs (Swap powers/add 3 to casts/undeniable casts/ free successive casts/ something crazy like that.)

 

Hopefully I'll have my mind changed by pre-orders.

[The Yncarne]

 

Doesn’t empiric trespass affect all your units that attack this power’s target for an entire turn? I’m not seeing the single reroll thing. 

 

totally expecting the time flux thing giving the expected wound change. Still, they said these were their favorite and that’s surely not just marketing right? 

 

You're right, each unit in melee with the spell's target get to re-roll a single wound roll of 1 during that turn. Still not great.

 

Re-roll a failed wound roll would be better. Re-roll all 1s better still. Re-roll all failed would definitely be worth taking.

 

im still not seeing the limit of re-rolling a single 1 in the assault phase. I read it as reroll all 1s, which will include your shooting phase, your assault phase, and the opponent’s assault phase. The way you write it, yes. I just can’t see how you get there so I’m asking where that limit is from. I’d still prefer it as an aura rather than a psychic power. 

 

until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time an attack is made against that unit by a model in a friendly cult of knowledge unit, re-roll a wound roll of 1. 

 

edit: spelling

Edited August 2, 2021 by The Blood Raven

[Ahzek451]

I read tha as well. Attacks are each individual attack as part of an attack sequence(I think, dont have the rule book atm). If that is the case, I think it's pretty nice. Any ability like this with a good range and such freedom to choose who gets it...I like it.

[Grendaxe]

 

All speculation of course, but the apparent playtester that was dropping hints about terminators, forgefiends, etc. gave the impression that the book was decent but not overpowered. My guess is we will sit somewhere around death guard power level, but surely not drukhari/admech level. Which is more than fine with me. Last thing we need is an overpowered book that gets nerfed and requires FAQ fixes a few weeks out from release. 

 

You know what? I would be over the moon with the Death Guard power level. I believe those guys can play to almost any level and have the list diversity that keeps it interesting while doing so. 

 

I have a bad feeling though. The show of "new" powers today seemed to favour Grey Knights to me. I also really dislike that when it comes to 'fluff rules' they seem to always stick it to Chaos. They mentioned that Grey Knights will bring that edge against Daemonic units. So I'm crossing my fingers it's not the ridiculous smite they had before against Daemons being buffable to the type of levels that means you simply don't take Magnus.

 

Cult of Time got a nerf. I'm not too happy about it because it was my secret sauce. I loved Duplicity for tactical play, but while everyone else on the tournie scene went "magic" I just took my CoT Termie detachment and had a lot of fun with it. It's more expensive to cast now, and can never bring back more than a model. 

 

This disappoints me because it is a 'test' which can be denied of course, and meanwhile I play a Dark Angels player that does it for 'free' with an apothecary on bike, and his tremies have perma 4++, FnP, ObSec, and can't be wounded on a 1-3. I felt this D3 possibility gave me some edge. So that's gone.

 

The attention grabber seems to be the ability to cast what is basically an altered lieutenant buff, but I'm not really liking it personally. 

 

I personally leaned on the power for Survivability. With the increase in denial type mechanisms, it's just a little easier to keep out of range, and make sure you have a better Invuln, or perhaps a -1 to hit....  

 

Anyway I'm really pulling back from the idea of ordering the box set now. It literally was for one model, and the fluff/campaign stuff. I mean the Scarab Occult are the best thing there, and I am playing a game today with our 'current' rules and even with old points I'm sitting at north of 400 points for my Termies. I don't see that changing to 15 models. 

 

With one model (it appears) for 9th edition, I don't think that bodes well. I see a lot of things in the preview that make me believe we just might be more status quo with edited statlines. The one thing I was hoping for was a change to how they structured the Cults, but it looks like they've locked them to detachments from what I can see.

 

So with locked detachments, static power picks during the "muster" phase of the game, I again see the problem of there will be one or two cults that probably outweigh the rest heavily. 

 

I think this is going to come down to the new character. With the way Psychics worked out in 9th, the powers will have to remain mostly in your zone, and the new characters will (as I first suggested) in pairs, maybe even triplicates, in new armies. Essentially 'casting' 2 'litanies' that can't be denied a turn.  Plus they have a psychic power. Not to be a fuddy duddy but unless Ahriman and/or Exalted Sorcs have some -AMAZING- new psychic mechanisms built into them, this is going to be what I would field. Granted this is with very limited knowledge. The saving grace for other characters would be like I said, some amazing psychic buffs (Swap powers/add 3 to casts/undeniable casts/ free successive casts/ something crazy like that.)

 

Hopefully I'll have my mind changed by pre-orders.

 

 

Same thoughts here. It just feels like GW is trying to balance "having a lot of psykers" by just giving them a lot of mediocre spells that have very little impact.

Which feels opposite to how the TS should feel, i think. I would rather have fewer psykers but more impact full spells.

 

At the same time (and i know i'm being a bit negative here but) i feel like the whole 2 wound marines is going to be more of a net negative thing then positive for me.

I like playing TS with a lot of mind-bullets. A lot of psyker chars with smite or any of the other dmg spells.

But all SM having 2 wounds is severally reducing the impact from a smite (or smite like spell) by 50% to 67%!. In the old situation getting a 3D smite for example would kill 3 SM models but now its only going to remove 1.

 

Guess i just gotta wait and see for now. I was hoping for a big overhaul but with every bit of info this seems more and more unlikely.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

For me it's going to depend on how the new book handles rubric marines.

 

We just don't have alot of flexibility and I assume we'll have similar limitations to deathguard... without the supporting cast.

 

So I'm hoping that rubrics bolters go to strength 5 in addition to gaining a second wound.

[Are Verlo]

We don’t know much about anything really.

As per now what little we know are those powers displayed today and a few bits about the infernal master.

 

People should just sit back and wait for the complete picture before making assumptions of the powerlevel of the new book.

[byrd9999]

 

 

Doesn’t empiric trespass affect all your units that attack this power’s target for an entire turn? I’m not seeing the single reroll thing. 

 

totally expecting the time flux thing giving the expected wound change. Still, they said these were their favorite and that’s surely not just marketing right? 

 

You're right, each unit in melee with the spell's target get to re-roll a single wound roll of 1 during that turn. Still not great.

 

Re-roll a failed wound roll would be better. Re-roll all 1s better still. Re-roll all failed would definitely be worth taking.

 

im still not seeing the limit of re-rolling a single 1 in the assault phase. I read it as reroll all 1s, which will include your shooting phase, your assault phase, and the opponent’s assault phase. The way you write it, yes. I just can’t see how you get there so I’m asking where that limit is from. I’d still prefer it as an aura rather than a psychic power. 

 

until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time an attack is made against that unit by a model in a friendly cult of knowledge unit, re-roll a wound roll of 1. 

 

edit: spelling

 

 

I guess it comes down to interpreting the "a wound roll of 1". I'm used to the 8th ed rule-writing that uses phrases like "re-roll hit rolls of 1". You could be right. I hope you are. Your interpretation is much better. :) 

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

 

Doesn’t empiric trespass affect all your units that attack this power’s target for an entire turn? I’m not seeing the single reroll thing. 

 

totally expecting the time flux thing giving the expected wound change. Still, they said these were their favorite and that’s surely not just marketing right? 

 

You're right, each unit in melee with the spell's target get to re-roll a single wound roll of 1 during that turn. Still not great.

 

Re-roll a failed wound roll would be better. Re-roll all 1s better still. Re-roll all failed would definitely be worth taking.

 

im still not seeing the limit of re-rolling a single 1 in the assault phase. I read it as reroll all 1s, which will include your shooting phase, your assault phase, and the opponent’s assault phase. The way you write it, yes. I just can’t see how you get there so I’m asking where that limit is from. I’d still prefer it as an aura rather than a psychic power. 

 

until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time an attack is made against that unit by a model in a friendly cult of knowledge unit, re-roll a wound roll of 1. 

 

edit: spelling

 

 

I guess it comes down to interpreting the "a wound roll of 1". I'm used to the 8th ed rule-writing that uses phrases like "re-roll hit rolls of 1". You could be right. I hope you are. Your interpretation is much better.

 

It's absolutely re-roll all wound rolls of 1, there's no room for ambiguity, because each attack is a separate sequence. This "each time an attack is made" wording has been used in other books.

[Archaeinox]

 

So I'm hoping that rubrics bolters go to strength 5 in addition to gaining a second wound.

 

Rubrics are appropriately costed considering their additional wound, assuming nothing changes.. I think we can just make them strength 5 with the infernal master's pact. 

 

A playtester also nudged a little that we should remind ourselves that the new familiar powers like Time Flux (which people are saying got nerfed) is in the new context of a new book with other things that change fundamentally. Bringing back a 3 wound Scarab is pretty solid for Warp Charge 6. Consider also that we don't have to expend additional points PLUS a Warlord Trait slot like the space marine apothecary does and it seems a little more palatable. 

[MillionsSons]

Only part I'm bummed about is they went with every cult getting a psychic power that only one person can cast every turn instead of them having a added special rule just for them that effects the whole army not just the sorcerers.

 

Other then that I'm just going to wait till I've watched man reads book.

It might still be the case.

Sub factions like drukhari have multiple bonuses. Our cults might have a spell/artefact/WT + maybe an faction wide bonus and a stratagem

[Ahzek451]

 

Only part I'm bummed about is they went with every cult getting a psychic power that only one person can cast every turn instead of them having a added special rule just for them that effects the whole army not just the sorcerers.

 

Other then that I'm just going to wait till I've watched man reads book.

It might still be the case.

Sub factions like drukhari have multiple bonuses. Our cults might have a spell/artefact/WT + maybe an faction wide bonus and a stratagem

Anything is possible, but I think the best source to look at to see what we will get is our fungal brothers. Look into how eaxh contagion functions. Uniquely different from sub factions.

[Skerr]

I believe it applies to all attacks.

 

1. "Until the start of your next psych phase..."

2. "...each time an attack is made against that unit by a model in a friendly CoK unit, reroll a wound roll of 1."

 

That it lasts from your one psy phase to the next means it effects your entire turn.

 

That it uses the general term attack does not imply, to me, that it defaults only to close combat but rather all attacks.

 

Similarly to how the game refers to saves and then uses a specific type of save if required.

 

I could be wrong though but looking at it as written I believe its all attacks. The fact that it lasts for your entire turn makes me believe the intention is to summon energies that basically hex your opponent for the duration of all attacks.

 

I will say this, I remain optimistic, I generally always am when our new dex drops with each edition, and I have done so with a lot of you right here on B&C though nothing really jumped out at me on these today and that brings back familiar feelings.

 

To be fair, the reroll 1s to wounds ain't that bad and I might be undervaluing that. But I understand the CoT frustration. Will 1 three wound model be enough to keep up? It might once we see all the other rules. And would it be unbalanced to let a lucky roll add an extra model or 2 even if its always defaulted to SOTs? Who knows? At first thought it doesn't but again we only have part of the puzzle. The Last power is definitely niche toward other psychers which can make it feel limited. An extra couple potential mortals at a higher WC would give it more flexibility but as it is WC 5 is cheap.

 

Even so I am still excited to see what else is in store this week, the best may be yet to come and these may be small problems in the end.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Skerr

[BrainFireBob]

I agree, especially if all Cult sorcs get the cult power. Any Sorc can become a quasi-lieutenant or Apothecary. Flexibility. Edited August 3, 2021 by BrainFireBob

[Archaeinox]

it probably still won't scale well from 750pts to 2000pts and above BUT i hope the 'meat' of the faction is from that super doctrine and that the cults are just icing for flavor.

[Marshal Loss]

I could be wrong though but looking at it as written I believe its all attacks.

 

No, you're definitely right, as posted on the previous page. I understand why the phrasing trips some people up but the rulebook makes abundantly clear that each attack is a separate sequence (p220-221).

 

The rules for making attacks have been written assuming you will resolve them one at a time.

 

We can choose to do multiple sequences at once (e.g firing a unit's boltguns simultaneously), but they are still independent of each other.

 

The wording for this particular rule is:

 

If manifested, select one enemy unit within 24" of this Psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time an attack is made against that unit by a model in a friendly Cult of Knowledge unit, re-roll a wound roll of 1.

 

Each time a model (in a friendly CoK unit) makes an attack, e.g. every Rubric marine is making their own attacks, independent of each other - they are simply rolled together to save time.

 

So, yeah - there's no ambiguity here at all.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[MillionsSons]

Reroll wound of 1 is great, the problem is that when this is your sub-faction bonus.

A deniable spell, that you can not even cast-off, and that is going to apply to only a few units that are actually shooting on the targetted ennemy... wow

 

Compare to Bkack Heart sub faction bonus:

- Vect

- all units reroll 1 hit roll (shooting and CC)

- +1 level in power from pain table

 

 

All these cult power would be great if combined, means each sorcerer choose a cult, and can target any TS unit with it.

This is fluffy and would be quite interesting to play.

But using only 1 cult, just give us 1 power as a faction bonus, with very near zero impact.

And if we pay 2CP for a patrol, we just unlock 1 more spell, and the units in that oatrol cant be affected by the spell from battalion cult.

Edited August 3, 2021 by MillionsSons

[Ahzek451]

And now we know. 

We have points to spend depending on how many psykers on on the table. Seems nifty. So far, there are a lot of abilities that are helping to mitigate weaknesses in our psychic ability. While, Cabbalistic focus is spendy, so incredibly useful. Kindred sorcerers helps against those feel bad moments. The fact that these act as command points without spending command points is such a boon. The fact that they are neither a psychic power or stratagem means they cannot be stopped in any way. Juicy. 

 Discipline of change and vengeance. I believe the options now available to us is incredible. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Ahzek451

[Archaeinox]

This is some spicy stuff. I can't handle the interwebz today. Gonna take my happy face and go to work and just vibe the rest of the week lol. Praise Tzeentch, yall