New Grey Knights Codex

[Captain Coolpants]

Ive been out of the game for ages. So not at all savy on the newer rules. Are there any similar things for other armies?

 

Would they be for characters only or squads?

 

I suppose we won't know until the codex is out. Just want to know if there is something similar already.

[Corvus Fortis]

Do you think they're all relics / wargear upgrades, or are some of them equivalent to our Chapter Command upgrades?

 

 

I think AdMech and Sisters received similar thing. I don't know details yet though.

 

My blind guessing just for fun:

 

- Augury of Agression: kind of defensive ability - fire overwatch for free or hit on 5+ or something like that. Or unit can set to defend anywhere;

- Heroism's Favor: something to do with morale - ignore attrition test or like that;

- A Noble Death: could be once again tied to ignoring morale or fight after death;

- Omen of Incursion: intercept reserves ability?

- Presaged Paralysis: kind of debuff on enemy unit - -1 to-hit or -1 attack;

- Foretelling of Locus: is it Daemonic Locus? Maybe fire at character ignoring look out or remove Daemonic Locus aura?

 

- True Name Shard: this one is easy - a debuff to daemon character. Maybe, force fight last?

- Temporal Bombs: also look like something that forces to fight last/reduce charges?

- Servant of the Throne: very generic, no ideas. Maybe, connected to inquisition?

- Deluminator Majesty: no ideas;

- Gem of Inoktu: same. But, maybe, Inoktu is a daemon's name?

- Severance Bolt: remove aura buffs or debuff psychic powers?

Edited May 31, 2021 by Corvus Fortis

[Oiad]

Checking out the Chapter Approved 2021 update, here's some assumptions based of all the new point values:

• At a slight cost increase, I can see the new Strike Squads having a profile similar to DW Vets.
• I'm expecting Purifiers to share the same profile as Strikes, based on those points. Something more radical would have been exciting. Putting them on par with say, Black Shields would have been a great way to differentiate them. Hopefully, they will gain Teleport Strike.
• As GKT costs put them in the realm of Blightlord Terminators, both 3W and 3A could be likely.
• With Paladins on par with Deathknights pointwise, I expect a similar profile. Maybe with +1/2A like Deathshroud, given that Deathknights get their NFH equivalent as standard.
• It seems BCs have actually gone down in points, not up, as was suggested earlier in this thread.
• The lower NFH and Falchions costs are hopefully as a results of both halberds and swords being given a +1S. That profile change would bring them into line with their PW equivalents.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Oiad

[Biscuittzz]

I could see Paladins having an inbuilt transhuman or some sort of damage reduction to make them enticing.

[Waking Dreamer]

The Thousands Sons new points upgrade consist of these 9 options under the title Legion Command:

 

TS upgrades (from the upcoming codex) have some seriously cool names:

 

Ardent Automata

Battle-Psyker

Dilettante

Loyal Thrall

Paradigm of Change

Protégé

Rehati

Rites of Coalescence

Witch-Warrior

 

And unsurprisingly they have 9 Cults for their sub-factions. 

 

So, in comparison to us:

 

Codex Upgrades for units:

 

Wisdom of the Prognosticars

 

Visions of the Augurium

- Augury of Aggression......+20 pts

- Heroism's Favour............+15 pts

- A Noble Death.................+20 pts

- Omen of Incursion...........+30 pts

- Presaged Paralysis...........+15 pts

- Foretelling of Locus.........+30 pts

 

Gifts of the Prescient

- True Name Shard...........+10 pts

- Temporal Bombs.............+15 pts

- Servant of the Thrones...+20 pts

- Deluminator of Majesty...+15 pts

- Gem of Inoktu.................+15 pts

- Severance Bolt...............+30 pts

 

And our own speculated Brotherhood Sub-factions:

 

 

 

^ Who's ready to connect the dots...? lol

 

[Corvus Fortis]

I hope more for bodyguard rule to protect our characters.

 

^ Who's ready to connect the dots...? lol

 

 

But we have 12 upgrades to 8 brotherhoods. 

 

By the way, SoB's mechanics revealed.

 

They upgrade a character with it and gain two abilities - one lasts for the whole battle and one can be activated once per battle for miracle die. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Corvus Fortis

[Waking Dreamer]

 

^ Who's ready to connect the dots...? lol

 

 

But we have 12 upgrades to 8 brotherhoods. 

 

By the way, SoB's mechanics revealed.

 

They upgrade a character with it and gain two abilities - one lasts for the whole battle and one can be activated once per battle for miracle die. 

 

I kind of suspected they probably wouldn't use all 8 Brotherhoods for rules mechanics - just like Custodes who have a lot more Shield Hosts in the lore, but the Codex only takes 5-6 of them and gives them playable rules.

 

So, I speculate it will be 6 Brotherhoods each one gets one associated option from Visions of the Augurium, and another from Gifts of the Prescient.

 

That way each of those 6 Brotherhoods ends up much more flexible, and whatever differences in power / competitiveness between the Brotherhoods, averages out a bit better...

Edited May 31, 2021 by Waking Dreamer

[Marshal Loss]

The upgrades won't be brotherhood specific.

[Skywrath]

The upgrades won't be brotherhood specific.

 

I'm suspecting that to be the case as well.

 

Rather, optimistically, I'm expecting 8 new starts for each brotherhood, in accordance to Waking Dreamers picture. So first company would have bonuses to NDK's, second company would have bonuses to strikes/interceptors, third would have bonuses for psychic (perhaps super warp tide doctrines)? But yeah, there is no way those upgrades are 4th and 6th company specific. 

[Waking Dreamer]

Hmm...well looking at the upgrades, it's clear we have two distinct sets.

 

The upgrades under Gifts of the Prescient are named in such a way that they sound like new relics, or wargear/weapon upgrades.

 

The former set under Visions of the Augurium sound distinctively like WLTs and new abilities.

 

I can see them as maybe a separate rules systems to Brotherhoods where you can mix-n-match.

 

Do other armies spend points costs for them to upgrade existing wargear into relic-like stats? Eg. I can almost see Severance Bolt as an upgrade to some type of bolt weapon(s). For 30pt increase it would have to be crazy good though right? Or maybe it upgrades all bolt-like weapons in a unit (eg all stormbolters / psycannons in a squad) for the entire game?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The points given are just for existing units.

[Corvus Fortis]

Looking at SoB codex, it is just upgrades for heroes it addition to relics and warlord traits.

 

To be honest, I am kind of tired of GW adding armywide special rules atop armywide special rules. At the same time, less rules on datasheets. 

[Shinkosh]

I've seen mention on previous pages about new key words, Sanctic Astartes and Brotherhood.

 

Where did the Brotherhood keyword leak/announcement come from? I found the reference to Sanctic Astartes, but for the life of me I cant find the Brotherhood one?

[Ichar]

I've seen mention on previous pages about new key words, Sanctic Astartes and Brotherhood.

 

Where did the Brotherhood keyword leak/announcement come from? I found the reference to Sanctic Astartes, but for the life of me I cant find the Brotherhood one?

The place that I saw it was in the Imperial Armor Compendium, in the listing for the Grey Knight Banisher. Not sure where else it has appeared.

[Shinkosh]

 

I've seen mention on previous pages about new key words, Sanctic Astartes and Brotherhood.

 

Where did the Brotherhood keyword leak/announcement come from? I found the reference to Sanctic Astartes, but for the life of me I cant find the Brotherhood one?

The place that I saw it was in the Imperial Armor Compendium, in the listing for the Grey Knight Banisher. Not sure where else it has appeared.

 

 

Spot on answer, many thanks.  Just googled the Banisher and saw the <Brotherhood> tag, along with the errata for Sanctic Astartes. 

[Waking Dreamer]

In similar fashion to our Psychic powers, it's possible Visions of the Augurium are for GK Characters only, while Gifts of the Prescient can be for GK characters or GK specific units.

 

Temporal Bombs could be restricted to upgrades for our GK flyers, while Severance Bolt can upgrade the Heavy Psycannon on our GMNDK. I think it could allow the Heavy Psycannon to ignore the "Look Out Sir!" rule. Cast Astral Aim on the GMNDK, Psychic Onslaught and headshot any enemy Characters within 24" range! It would be the very first time a stand alone GK Codex has character sniper unit.

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

Please note that I've moved the Primaris v Firstborn Grey Knights discussion to Brother Skywrath's most excellent Grey Knights Primaris thread. 

 

Any concerns or questions should be addressed to me via PM.

 

=][=

[Waking Dreamer]

 

NDKs really needs that rule that halves all incoming damage.

Or at least the -1 dmg that dreadnoughts get.

 

 

The Sisters of Battle's new Paragon warsuits are getting the -1 damage as well!

 

Dreadnoughts are designed differently to piloted walkers, so I hesitated to speculate that was something GW would do. However, with our Dreadknights essentially bigger (and the original) Paragon Warsuits, I'd say we have a 50/50 chance of receiving that bonus rule now...if they were thinking of how to improve our dreadknight units. 

 

If there a bonus rule like that, with cheaper codex points and the inclusion of the model in the upcoming battle boxset...hopefully GW saw it as a win-win for everybody!

[Angel of Death]

are grey knights still as weak and underwhealming as they used to be in the past edition?

they used to be one of the weakest codexes in the entire game, if i remember it correctly :)

[Skywrath]

are grey knights still as weak and underwhealming as they used to be in the past edition?

they used to be one of the weakest codexes in the entire game, if i remember it correctly

 

I'm not sure you realise how broken the double paladin was during ROTD. Currently, yes we are one of the weakest, thanks to us not being Space Marines. Hopefully that will soon change.

[Trollbeard]

The double paladin bomb was only around for the tail end of 8th, maybe 6 months, before that they were severely underpowered as well.

[The Woodsman]

 

are grey knights still as weak and underwhealming as they used to be in the past edition?

they used to be one of the weakest codexes in the entire game, if i remember it correctly

 

I'm not sure you realise how broken the double paladin was during ROTD. Currently, yes we are one of the weakest, thanks to us not being Space Marines. Hopefully that will soon change.

 

 

I don't know that we can call the double Pally bomb broken... it was definitely a hot combo and a tough nut to crack, but didn't smash the meta either. The only occassion I know of that it really did well was Tabletop Tactics' Lawrence taking second place in the Bournemouth GT, and this was the first time the list appeared. When he played against the GT's 1st place in a ''what if?'' game on the channel, the Iron Hands super-dreads list won out without too much trouble - and Lawrence is/was one of the top players for GK. 

 

are grey knights still as weak and underwhealming as they used to be in the past edition?

they used to be one of the weakest codexes in the entire game, if i remember it correctly

 

I don't know that Grey Knights are weak and underwhelming lol. They can dish out a lot of damage, have great mobility and great utility from psychic powers. The problem is that in comparison to other top factions they have very limited resilience - outside of the aforementioned Paladins, which considering recent Codexes aren't that resilient either. That being said some players have had good success with them (RIchard Seigler for example) and still do better, in my opinion, than say Tau or even probably Orks (though the new Codex is just around the corner), and definitely better than GSC or Chaos Marines. 

 

Just to tie back in to the topic's thread so Brother Lunkhead doesn't boot me (lol), hopefully the new GK Codex fixes the major issue of survivability, 2-wound power armored Marines is pretty much a given, but as Waking Dreamer mentioned a -1 Damage on Dreadknights could be cool (Dreadnoughts should also get this to fall in line with other SM equivalents), and since the leaked points kind of point to Paladins not getting an extra Wound (while Termis should), maybe they'll get a neat rule to add to their survivability and let them be more than just terminators with an extra attack... I think someone mentioned in-built Transhuman (which I think would be much), but maybe a 6+++ (or, Emperor willing, a 5+++) or a 4++ base invul. I don't see them getting an extra Toughness, they are ''just'' loyalist, firstborn Astartes, but with stuff like Blightlords getting that 4++, I think we could realistically expect something similar for our top boys. As far as resilience goes, our Apothecary being brought in line with other SM healers (aka the FnP aura and auto-raise-from-the-dead) would really bump up the durability of units such as Paladins, and even Strikes and co. if they get 2 Wounds. 

[Skywrath]

 

 

are grey knights still as weak and underwhealming as they used to be in the past edition?

they used to be one of the weakest codexes in the entire game, if i remember it correctly

 

I'm not sure you realise how broken the double paladin was during ROTD. Currently, yes we are one of the weakest, thanks to us not being Space Marines. Hopefully that will soon change.

 

 

I don't know that we can call the double Pally bomb broken... it was definitely a hot combo and a tough nut to crack, but didn't smash the meta either. The only occassion I know of that it really did well was Tabletop Tactics' Lawrence taking second place in the Bournemouth GT, and this was the first time the list appeared. When he played against the GT's 1st place in a ''what if?'' game on the channel, the Iron Hands super-dreads list won out without too much trouble - and Lawrence is/was one of the top players for GK.  

 

I'm not sure about that. Many of the sources claimed it was a S-tier list and in your own words very difficult to crack. If Lawrence (in you own words one of the best GK player in the world), could take the list that far, then that's an indicator of what it can it do best case scenario. Similarly, because people do not play Grey Knights compared to other factions, of course we won't get the complete picture - there isn't enough data on the above fact. However if I recall, the IH in 8th's were beyond broken (I vaguely remember something about 2+ invulns, could be wrong) so even with all that, naturally the paladin bomb would suffer against that list. At that point, you are hoping the weight of attacks hitting on 4's-6's would get past that for some cheeky D3 damage. I wouldn't say that's an objective metric to gauge how strong the list was back then, despite this being in a tournament. As for it smashing the meta, in my local circle (back when I was playing there), everyone was in the process of re-rolling Grey Knights, well before COVID struck. 

 

I feel Brother Lunkhead's storm-bolter aimed at the back of my helmet, so I'll do penitence in the name of this thread. I think when our codex drops (regarding the above point somewhat), that Sanctuary (if it doesn't get completely reworked), will be restricted to only INFANTRY models. You could make the argument that with the recent GMNDK point changes, that is a tell-tale sign. Sure our Paladin bombs will still be running with a 3++ invuln in melee (again assuming Sanctuary doesn't get reworked), but I don't think we'll be seeing a lot of GMNDK lists, not that we see a lot of them already. 

[techsoldaten]

 

 

I don't know that we can call the double Pally bomb broken... it was definitely a hot combo and a tough nut to crack, but didn't smash the meta either. The only occassion I know of that it really did well was Tabletop Tactics' Lawrence taking second place in the Bournemouth GT, and this was the first time the list appeared. When he played against the GT's 1st place in a ''what if?'' game on the channel, the Iron Hands super-dreads list won out without too much trouble - and Lawrence is/was one of the top players for GK.  

 

I'm not sure about that. Many of the sources claimed it was a S-tier list and in your own words very difficult to crack. If Lawrence (in you own words one of the best GK player in the world), could take the list that far, then that's an indicator of what it can it do best case scenario. Similarly, because people do not play Grey Knights compared to other factions, of course we won't get the complete picture - there isn't enough data on the above fact. 

 

I got in 3 games before lockdowns started.

 

Paladin Bomb lists were very quirky. Success relied on positioning, every unit had to be in the right place for mass Smites to work. Movement phases were very complex, everything was in response to an opponent's moves. Felt like hunting.

 

Had I had more time to get used to the list, maybe I could have gotten used to it. But I'm not sure PBs were that great, more games probably would have revealed some weaknesses that are not apparent from the small sample size.

 

The main thing that gave me problems was screening units, an opponent could put 20 Cultists out front and all my smites would go there. I think the meta would have adapted to counter these lists before long.

 

 

I feel Brother Lunkhead's storm-bolter aimed at the back of my helmet, so I'll do penitence in the name of this thread. I think when our codex drops (regarding the above point somewhat), that Sanctuary (if it doesn't get completely reworked), will be restricted to only INFANTRY models. You could make the argument that with the recent GMNDK point changes, that is a tell-tale sign. Sure our Paladin bombs will still be running with a 3++ invuln in melee (again assuming Sanctuary doesn't get reworked), but I don't think we'll be seeing a lot of GMNDK lists, not that we see a lot of them already. 

 

The question I'm asking is whether Terminator Bombs are going to be a thing.

 

Paladins are Elite and lack ObSec. Terminators can sit on an objective and wait for you to come for a fight while they rack up points.

 

There's probably not going to be 4W Paladins, so what is going to make them the compelling choice? This could easily go wrong and put them back on the shelf.

 

Regarding GMNDKs, would not write them off. Would really like to see how they turn out in the new Codex.

Edited June 4, 2021 by techsoldaten

[Corvus Fortis]

The question I'm asking is whether Terminator Bombs are going to be a thing.

 

 

 

Looks very much like it, unless spamming strikes purifiers won't happen to be better strategy. It depends on how many PA rules will survive the new codex. If -1 damage strat will still be there, Termies are certainly worth it. If fight after death strat on pallies is still there too, it could be a good idea to have 5-10 in a list. If they will have bodyguard rule, 5 will be a must have.