Stormspeeders more viable?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The stormspeeders have all had their points cut 135-160.

Are they still too much, or are they now cost efficient enough to be looked at seriously for games other than simple fun?

Edited May 29, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Frater Cornelius]

The issue is that it is a 10 wound vehicle with T6, no invul and isn't Core, so no consistent rerolls for all those low shot high power guns.

 

Not so say that it is bad, especially after the reduction. However, it competes against things that are just better. Competitively, you can do better with attack bikes or even ATVs.

 

Completely useless? Hell no. Just not optimal. Shouls that stop you? No. Attack bikes look weird anyway.

[Karhedron]

None of the points drops we have seen so far have exceeded 10%. While they have been applied to the weakest units, most of these are more than 10% behind the curve in terms of power. If you like the units then it is a nice bonus but I don't think we will see Stormspeeders or Land Raiders showing up in tournament lists just yet.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

There was a dark angel list running the Thunderstrike variant that made a top 4 recently. That said Ravenwing does provide them with Jink which is a pretty strong bonus, and the author reviewing the list on goonhammer viewed it as anti raider tech. So I think with a drop that may become a more common sight in DA lists.

 

In general though it's really going to depend on how chapter approved treats attack bikes, and plasma inceptors. They've been the best fast attack slots, and there is a big drop off after them. If they go up maybe the speeders become relevant in the competitive meta but I think it would still amount to a nerf to marines based on the point adjustments spoiled so far.

 

Edit: forgot to mention that thunder strike has bs 2+ which is part of why it sees play.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Medjugorje]

The stormspeeders have all had their points cut 135-160.

Are they still too much, or are they now cost efficient enough to be looked at seriously for games other than simple fun?

no invul, no core so no buffs for a unit which cost as double as a land speeder. 2 land speeder do not degrade and have near to same output and better input. Land Speeders are okay but not good. In competitive lists they have to compete with Attack Bikes (and even those lists dont win tournaments).

 

so NO for most Marines ( I talk about Wolves, Templars, Fists, White Scars, Blood Angels...) dont know how good they are with other chaptes.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Ishagu]

The one with the BS2+ is very useful - the Thunderstrike.

 

Good unit

Edited May 29, 2021 by Ishagu

[quasistellar]

I think these could be good alpha units in iron hands

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

This unit just seems it will always be fodder for favourable trades for your opponent.  If dark lance ravagers are 140 points then stormspeeders should be like 100?  It seems like GW has nowhere to go with this unit without adding rules to it.  Or perhaps dark lance ravagers should cost 175+ ?  

[quasistellar]

This unit just seems it will always be fodder for favourable trades for your opponent.  If dark lance ravagers are 140 points then stormspeeders should be like 100?  It seems like GW has nowhere to go with this unit without adding rules to it.  Or perhaps dark lance ravagers should cost 175+ ?  

Sigh, yeah. None of these are as good as a dark lance ravager. If the las talon had a minimum damage greater than 1 maybe, but... idk maybe a jump pack librarian to cast 5++? I feel like they’re real close. I think we’re seeing early edition codex syndrome all over again. You hate to keep dropping points on an elite army instead of just making their units better for the points, but GW seems very anti-datasheet-update. I feel like all the SM vehicles larger than the new buggy need more wounds or toughness.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I really think most vehicles should have an invulnerable save or damage reduction at this point.

 

The hammerstrike and the thunder strike are decent enough at offense even compared to a ravager (the thunder strike has the twin rocket pods, in addition to the 3 d6 damage shots, plus bs2+ and the hammer strike has 3 MM shots, the missiles, and 2 krak launchers).

 

We've seen the thunder strike in ravenwing lists where they gain jink. So I think at there is a pretty clear path to getting this on the table.

[Frater Cornelius]

This unit just seems it will always be fodder for favourable trades for your opponent. If dark lance ravagers are 140 points then stormspeeders should be like 100? It seems like GW has nowhere to go with this unit without adding rules to it. Or perhaps dark lance ravagers should cost 175+ ?

That's like saying "why would IG field Guardsmen when Intercessors are much better?". I don't think that inter-army comparisons are the best metric. Besides, we all know that DE in general and Dark Lances in particular are overtuned.

 

With all the point adjustments, I can think of a fun RG list. Do a long-ranged army with Eliminators, Thunderstrikes, etc. Hide the speeders behind terrain, move up to remove obscuring and still benefit from Stealth via the CT. Not DE level of quality, but it sounds quite cool to me.

[Mandragola]

I hadn't noticed that the Thunderstrike has a 2+ BS before. That's certainly interesting because it compensates for not being Core, since it's already highly accurate. As a Crimson Fist player I'm always looking for units that can get LoS on stuff in turn 1 to benefit from my not-so-super doctrine and this is an option I suppose. A Fist one of these would be pretty bad news for DE, I think. It would also be horribly vulnerable to them. It would be in pretty direct competition with invictors though, and I'm not convinced it's better. Still, variety is always nice.

 

The hailstrike is just trash, right? I guess it's now kind of cheap-ish for a fast unit but I can't see any other benefit. We don't need dakka - that's what our troops are for.

 

I'm not sure how the hammerstrike compares to attack bikes now it's cheaper and they're more expensive. Still not all that well I think, but it's not too awful. Flying and high speed do help.

 

I think overall that dropping the price of these things pulls them into the range of being worth considering, but probably still not all that good. But it wouldn't take all that much to make them viable, and the ravenguard bonuses might well do enough I think. I like the models so I'd like to have one if I could justify it. I really can't right now though.

[Kenzaburo]

@Mandragola - the looks of a Hammerstrike compared to the old attack bike alone are reason enough for me to take the Hammerstrike. I like this combination of speed and firepower on a single platform, but always loathed the old bike models. There might be slight advantages, mathhammer-wise, but I just can't ignore aesthetics. :)

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

This unit just seems it will always be fodder for favourable trades for your opponent. If dark lance ravagers are 140 points then stormspeeders should be like 100? It seems like GW has nowhere to go with this unit without adding rules to it. Or perhaps dark lance ravagers should cost 175+ ?

That's like saying "why would IG field Guardsmen when Intercessors are much better?". I don't think that inter-army comparisons are the best metric. Besides, we all know that DE in general and Dark Lances in particular are overtuned.

For the purposes of points values it very much works.  If dark lance ravagers are 140 and stormspeeders are 175+ then we got a big balance issue since the ravager is superior by every metric.  The marine codex has internal balance issues in addition to the external issue I mentioned.  

 

Stormspeeders are overcosted relative to MM attack bikes, MM Mario Karts, and redemptor dreads.  All of these are more durable for the points with comparable or better firepower.  If a remdeptor is 175 then a stormspeeder should probably cost 125 points.  -1 dmg, +1t, strong close combat, core,stratagem support, and more guns is worth 50 points imo.   

[Lord Raven 19]

I think another detriment to it's use might be the financial cost. I certainly don't see a storm speeder being worth £42, can't even imagine what that is for you lot across the pond. A redemptor is only £40 and will get you closer to a full sized army, for cheaper, as well as, arguably, being better in game.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

This unit just seems it will always be fodder for favourable trades for your opponent. If dark lance ravagers are 140 points then stormspeeders should be like 100? It seems like GW has nowhere to go with this unit without adding rules to it. Or perhaps dark lance ravagers should cost 175+ ?

That's like saying "why would IG field Guardsmen when Intercessors are much better?". I don't think that inter-army comparisons are the best metric. Besides, we all know that DE in general and Dark Lances in particular are overtuned.

For the purposes of points values it very much works. If dark lance ravagers are 140 and stormspeeders are 175+ then we got a big balance issue since the ravager is superior by every metric. The marine codex has internal balance issues in addition to the external issue I mentioned.

 

Stormspeeders are overcosted relative to MM attack bikes, MM Mario Karts, and redemptor dreads. All of these are more durable for the points with comparable or better firepower. If a remdeptor is 175 then a stormspeeder should probably cost 125 points. -1 dmg, +1t, strong close combat, core,stratagem support, and more guns is worth 50 points imo.

attack bikes only have one gun so it's not like it's a real 1:1 comparison... Edited June 2, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

This unit just seems it will always be fodder for favourable trades for your opponent. If dark lance ravagers are 140 points then stormspeeders should be like 100? It seems like GW has nowhere to go with this unit without adding rules to it. Or perhaps dark lance ravagers should cost 175+ ?

That's like saying "why would IG field Guardsmen when Intercessors are much better?". I don't think that inter-army comparisons are the best metric. Besides, we all know that DE in general and Dark Lances in particular are overtuned.

For the purposes of points values it very much works. If dark lance ravagers are 140 and stormspeeders are 175+ then we got a big balance issue since the ravager is superior by every metric. The marine codex has internal balance issues in addition to the external issue I mentioned.

 

Stormspeeders are overcosted relative to MM attack bikes, MM Mario Karts, and redemptor dreads. All of these are more durable for the points with comparable or better firepower. If a remdeptor is 175 then a stormspeeder should probably cost 125 points. -1 dmg, +1t, strong close combat, core,stratagem support, and more guns is worth 50 points imo.

attack bikes only have one gun so it's not like it's a real 1:1 comparison...

 

Yes but 3 attack bikes in a unit have 3 guns which is comparable.  

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think another detriment to it's use might be the financial cost. I certainly don't see a storm speeder being worth £42, can't even imagine what that is for you lot across the pond. A redemptor is only £40 and will get you closer to a full sized army, for cheaper, as well as, arguably, being better in game.

 

I think this is a fair point if your comparing game value vs. price point at the current moment, if anything your underselling how good the Redemptor is. That said I like the storm speeder model more than I like the Redemptor, which means for me it offers more value. I won't tell people its competitive but I don't regret buying it.

 

 

 

 

This unit just seems it will always be fodder for favourable trades for your opponent. If dark lance ravagers are 140 points then stormspeeders should be like 100? It seems like GW has nowhere to go with this unit without adding rules to it. Or perhaps dark lance ravagers should cost 175+ ?

That's like saying "why would IG field Guardsmen when Intercessors are much better?". I don't think that inter-army comparisons are the best metric. Besides, we all know that DE in general and Dark Lances in particular are overtuned.

For the purposes of points values it very much works. If dark lance ravagers are 140 and stormspeeders are 175+ then we got a big balance issue since the ravager is superior by every metric. The marine codex has internal balance issues in addition to the external issue I mentioned.

 

Stormspeeders are overcosted relative to MM attack bikes, MM Mario Karts, and redemptor dreads. All of these are more durable for the points with comparable or better firepower. If a remdeptor is 175 then a stormspeeder should probably cost 125 points. -1 dmg, +1t, strong close combat, core,stratagem support, and more guns is worth 50 points imo.

attack bikes only have one gun so it's not like it's a real 1:1 comparison...

 

 

With that logic you can't really compare most of the units in 40k to each other. Plus attack bikes have a bolt pistol, twin boltgun, and either a heavy bolter or a Multi-Melta. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

This unit just seems it will always be fodder for favourable trades for your opponent. If dark lance ravagers are 140 points then stormspeeders should be like 100? It seems like GW has nowhere to go with this unit without adding rules to it. Or perhaps dark lance ravagers should cost 175+ ?

That's like saying "why would IG field Guardsmen when Intercessors are much better?". I don't think that inter-army comparisons are the best metric. Besides, we all know that DE in general and Dark Lances in particular are overtuned.

For the purposes of points values it very much works. If dark lance ravagers are 140 and stormspeeders are 175+ then we got a big balance issue since the ravager is superior by every metric. The marine codex has internal balance issues in addition to the external issue I mentioned.

 

Stormspeeders are overcosted relative to MM attack bikes, MM Mario Karts, and redemptor dreads. All of these are more durable for the points with comparable or better firepower. If a remdeptor is 175 then a stormspeeder should probably cost 125 points. -1 dmg, +1t, strong close combat, core,stratagem support, and more guns is worth 50 points imo.

attack bikes only have one gun so it's not like it's a real 1:1 comparison...

Yes but 3 attack bikes in a unit have 3 guns which is comparable.

which is more by quite a bit. Edited June 3, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

 

 

This unit just seems it will always be fodder for favourable trades for your opponent. If dark lance ravagers are 140 points then stormspeeders should be like 100? It seems like GW has nowhere to go with this unit without adding rules to it. Or perhaps dark lance ravagers should cost 175+ ?

That's like saying "why would IG field Guardsmen when Intercessors are much better?". I don't think that inter-army comparisons are the best metric. Besides, we all know that DE in general and Dark Lances in particular are overtuned.

For the purposes of points values it very much works. If dark lance ravagers are 140 and stormspeeders are 175+ then we got a big balance issue since the ravager is superior by every metric. The marine codex has internal balance issues in addition to the external issue I mentioned.

 

Stormspeeders are overcosted relative to MM attack bikes, MM Mario Karts, and redemptor dreads. All of these are more durable for the points with comparable or better firepower. If a remdeptor is 175 then a stormspeeder should probably cost 125 points. -1 dmg, +1t, strong close combat, core,stratagem support, and more guns is worth 50 points imo.

attack bikes only have one gun so it's not like it's a real 1:1 comparison...

Yes but 3 attack bikes in a unit have 3 guns which is comparable.

which is more by quite a bit.

 

 

The bikes are only now more expensive by 25 points and likely still more points efficient and durable.  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This unit just seems it will always be fodder for favourable trades for your opponent. If dark lance ravagers are 140 points then stormspeeders should be like 100? It seems like GW has nowhere to go with this unit without adding rules to it. Or perhaps dark lance ravagers should cost 175+ ?

That's like saying "why would IG field Guardsmen when Intercessors are much better?". I don't think that inter-army comparisons are the best metric. Besides, we all know that DE in general and Dark Lances in particular are overtuned.

For the purposes of points values it very much works. If dark lance ravagers are 140 and stormspeeders are 175+ then we got a big balance issue since the ravager is superior by every metric. The marine codex has internal balance issues in addition to the external issue I mentioned.

 

Stormspeeders are overcosted relative to MM attack bikes, MM Mario Karts, and redemptor dreads. All of these are more durable for the points with comparable or better firepower. If a remdeptor is 175 then a stormspeeder should probably cost 125 points. -1 dmg, +1t, strong close combat, core,stratagem support, and more guns is worth 50 points imo.

attack bikes only have one gun so it's not like it's a real 1:1 comparison...

Yes but 3 attack bikes in a unit have 3 guns which is comparable.

which is more by quite a bit.

The bikes are only now more expensive by 25 points and likely still more points efficient and durable.

25pts is quite a lot, but I won't argue 3 is likely more survivable than 1 speeder