Feelings towards the new Land Raider Points costs

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I'll say it again, dropping points isn't a buff.

 

If rules don't change the 270pt LR will die just as quickly as the 100pt LR.

If rules don't change the 270pt LR will put out the same firepower as the 100pt LR.

The only thing that changes in regard to the LR, is the 'Oooff' size when it gets killed turn 1.

It is a significant buff, actually. It means you can have two tanks for the price of one. That's double the wounds, firepower, etc.

 

The less of an investment a unit is, the less in return it requires to output before it has become a viable asset to an army.

thats not making the land raider any better it's giving you more landraiders sure, but it doesn't make either land raider perform better.

[dice4thedicegod]

A devastator squad might not be as durable, but you can get 4 lascannons and some bolters for 96pts meaning even at 100pts a LR is barely worth it imho, so a rules change will be necessary to make them worth it.

Am I miscounting? 5 man dev squad with 4 lascannons= 150 points. Much lower toughness, wounds , save. Etc.

 

 

Thinking of what is comparable... should a landraider cost the same as the nerfed leviathan? About 240? That seems more like it...

[The Unseen]

Less than a leviathan.

A lot less.

No invuln, less firepower, no duty eternal, no melee profile, and no real job transporting units, because it isn't fast enough to do that effectively.

The Land Raider needs a rework basically.

It needs the old assault vehicle rules back, and a slight durability buff and stay around the 250 mark.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

A devastator squad might not be as durable, but you can get 4 lascannons and some bolters for 96pts meaning even at 100pts a LR is barely worth it imho, so a rules change will be necessary to make them worth it.

Am I miscounting? 5 man dev squad with 4 lascannons= 150 points. Much lower toughness, wounds , save. Etc.

 

 

Thinking of what is comparable... should a landraider cost the same as the nerfed leviathan? About 240? That seems more like it...

im at work so I'm using wah a pedia and there I for might be off.

 

Ah my bad I see where i :cussed it up. 18x5=90 4 lascannons=30, so 120.

Still you can keep them in cover and out of sight a lot easier.

 

My point being that there are options for similar firepower for about the same price as 100pt landraider.

Hell guard can get 2 HWSes with 3 lascannons, and 3 heavy bolters for 110. Comparable fire power but no one is going to cry too much if they're shot off the board in turn 1

 

Therefore the land raider needs an actual buff not a half assed attempt to make seem more appealing on the surface.

At 100pts per LR sure you can get 2 for the price of one currently, but is that really better if one is shot off the board and the other is bracketed in turn 1?

Edited June 5, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Captain Idaho]

Lowering points on units is an inelegant and clumsy solution. It works to tweak if just a tweak is needed, but a substantial points drop just interferes with other units. A Land Raider at 200pts is a bargain, which means other units need a points drop or else wouldn't get chosen, which in turn means Marines end up cheaper than the rest of the game.

 

What is the purpose of a Land Raider and do they fulfill said purpose? That question can extend to anything but for the topic it's the assault vehicles that aren't - Land Raiders and Repulsors.

[MegaVolt87]

Lowering points on units is an inelegant and clumsy solution. It works to tweak if just a tweak is needed, but a substantial points drop just interferes with other units. A Land Raider at 200pts is a bargain, which means other units need a points drop or else wouldn't get chosen, which in turn means Marines end up cheaper than the rest of the game.

What is the purpose of a Land Raider and do they fulfill said purpose? That question can extend to anything but for the topic it's the assault vehicles that aren't - Land Raiders and Repulsors.

Split the SM codex into two seperate ones, primaris have enough to stand on their own. Then a 200pt LR won't clash with primaris vehicles. Would balance SM to boot and stop the easy mix and match cherry picking. You can then look at real points cuts and rules updates for firstborn and primaris.

[Kallas]

Split the SM codex into two seperate ones, primaris have enough to stand on their own. Then a 200pt LR won't clash with primaris vehicles. Would balance SM to boot and stop the easy mix and match cherry picking. You can then look at real points cuts and rules updates for firstborn and primaris.

 

But the problem isn't Primaris - it's just points isn't a fix, after a certain point. If a Land Raider is 200pts, why bother taking a quad-Las Predator Annihilator for only 30pts less? A Land Raider would have the same Lascannon firepower, an added Twin Heavy Bolter, transport capacity, higher T/W/Sv, and a supporting Stratagem.

 

That's why points aren't the best fix if the actual functionality of a model/unit isn't in the right place - and that's exactly the problem with Land Raiders. Anything can be made a viable, competitive option by reducing cost, but that doesn't make a unit function properly to fit a role if it didn't already.

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

Tanks should inflict mortal wounds when they charge.

The Ork kill tank does. It is the best tank in the game hands down. In fact with its ram, the ramming speed strat, and a character in it with rezmekka armor I can do a hilarious number of mortals. Wish we had even a few mortals. I’m mean they are running people over for god sake.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Lowering points on units is an inelegant and clumsy solution. It works to tweak if just a tweak is needed, but a substantial points drop just interferes with other units. A Land Raider at 200pts is a bargain, which means other units need a points drop or else wouldn't get chosen, which in turn means Marines end up cheaper than the rest of the game.

 

What is the purpose of a Land Raider and do they fulfill said purpose? That question can extend to anything but for the topic it's the assault vehicles that aren't - Land Raiders and Repulsors.

 

I don't think points should be the only solution for bad units, but they can be an elegant fix because its simple. 

 

That said I think Land Raiders have a couple of issues that make them difficult to fix with other buffs in this edition.

 

1) They are a heavy armored assault transport. The best assault choices either can't ride in them (bladeguard vets), or don't need them (termies/vanguard vets). Some chapters have some specialist choices, but beyond that the units that would want one are pretty limited (assault centurions, and maybe company vets). So you could give them a rule that lets the unit disembark and either move and shoot, or charge (With move and charge the threat range would be ridiculous for some fractions). That said I still don't know if termies would want one because of scatter free deep strike, and vanguard vets can put a lot of pressure just moving up out of LoS. So fixing this element involves more than just adjusting the raider.

 

2) Progressive objectives aren't kind to deathstar style units. This I think is the point that really hurts them, because a land raider with termies is 20% of your army if you add a character its probably 25%. You can and will separate them but marines don't have the tools that most armies with big models have mainly cheap filler units and lots of them.

 

So if you buff them with extra toughness, and an improved assault vehicle rule I still don't think they see play without a drop. 

 

 

 

Split the SM codex into two seperate ones, primaris have enough to stand on their own. Then a 200pt LR won't clash with primaris vehicles. Would balance SM to boot and stop the easy mix and match cherry picking. You can then look at real points cuts and rules updates for firstborn and primaris.

 

But the problem isn't Primaris - it's just points isn't a fix, after a certain point. If a Land Raider is 200pts, why bother taking a quad-Las Predator Annihilator for only 30pts less? A Land Raider would have the same Lascannon firepower, an added Twin Heavy Bolter, transport capacity, higher T/W/Sv, and a supporting Stratagem.

 

That's why points aren't the best fix if the actual functionality of a model/unit isn't in the right place - and that's exactly the problem with Land Raiders. Anything can be made a viable, competitive option by reducing cost, but that doesn't make a unit function properly to fit a role if it didn't already.

 

 

@Megavolt - I don't think splitting the books off really accomplishes that, we have a good mix of stuff from both fristborn, and primaris that are good. So I don't think being in a combined codex hurts them, that and to be honest a lot of marine players would need to buy three books to play before campaign supplements, and that's brutal. 

 

 

@Kallas - The problem with that comparison is that the predator is also overpriced. I'd compare it to 4 eradicators with heavy melta rifles (a strong unit) that would be at the same points. The eradicators would be capable of lot more max damage, would benefit a bit from wounds not spilling over but have shorter range, lower Mv/T/W/Sv, a hit penalty if they moved, and both would have stratagem support. For what it's worth I do think eradicators should go up, and that the land raider should get more interesting fixes. 

[Kallas]

 

 

But the problem isn't Primaris - it's just points isn't a fix, after a certain point. If a Land Raider is 200pts, why bother taking a quad-Las Predator Annihilator for only 30pts less? A Land Raider would have the same Lascannon firepower, an added Twin Heavy Bolter, transport capacity, higher T/W/Sv, and a supporting Stratagem.

 

That's why points aren't the best fix if the actual functionality of a model/unit isn't in the right place - and that's exactly the problem with Land Raiders. Anything can be made a viable, competitive option by reducing cost, but that doesn't make a unit function properly to fit a role if it didn't already.

 

 

@Kallas - The problem with that comparison is that the predator is also overpriced. I'd compare it to 4 eradicators with heavy melta rifles (a strong unit) that would be at the same points. The eradicators would be capable of lot more max damage, would benefit a bit from wounds not spilling over but have shorter range, lower Mv/T/W/Sv, a hit penalty if they moved, and both would have stratagem support. For what it's worth I do think eradicators should go up, and that the land raider should get more interesting fixes. 

 

Yes, Predators are overpriced/not occupying a useful niche, but the comparison is the whole point. A point reduction on the Land Raider just muscles Predators out even more than Razorbacks already did; which is just emphasising the point that points tweaks are a be-all-end-all fix for problematic units, particularly when they have additional knock-on effects.

 

Actual datasheet changes are needed to keep the Land Raider at the roughly 250-280pt mark but with useful (and possible unique/rare) functionality (eg, Assault Ramp)

[Ishagu]

Keep in mind that all Marine vehicles need a point adjustment, not just the Landraider.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, because they all suck, man it gets me down, I have this shelf with loads of rhino chassis tanks, all of which I love, and another with Land Raiders, but none of them will see play, because they just suck.

 

I was reading the Goonhammer review and the bit on Immolators really rings true:

 

"Immolators

 

[Wings(Editor's) Note: I reached the following unfiltered Corrode-ism late at night during the review compilation process, and honestly decided it didn’t need changing.]

 

WHY is this 120pts? WHY? Who can explain this to me? It’s a Razorback with a weak invulnerable save, why is that worth 120pts? That’s for the default heavy bolter build, by the way – the iconic flamers or the twin multi-meltas bump the cost to 130pts or 150pts respectively. Why do you hate Rhino-chassis tanks, Games Workshop? What did they do to you?"

[Karhedron]

Keep in mind that all Marine vehicles need a point adjustment, not just the Landraider.

There are a few playable options. Razorbacks are decent if you want to run Mech as they are cheap enough to spam and bring respectable dakka. Impulsors are a bit overpriced but serve a role in delivering Bladeguard. Vindicators are actually decent too, they rival the firepower of the quad-las Predator but are T8 and cost 40 points less.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I presume you mean the Laser Destroyer? I like those, especially for Templars, as I get a 5+++ if I roll the one on overcharge.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

 

But the problem isn't Primaris - it's just points isn't a fix, after a certain point. If a Land Raider is 200pts, why bother taking a quad-Las Predator Annihilator for only 30pts less? A Land Raider would have the same Lascannon firepower, an added Twin Heavy Bolter, transport capacity, higher T/W/Sv, and a supporting Stratagem.

 

That's why points aren't the best fix if the actual functionality of a model/unit isn't in the right place - and that's exactly the problem with Land Raiders. Anything can be made a viable, competitive option by reducing cost, but that doesn't make a unit function properly to fit a role if it didn't already.

 

 

@Kallas - The problem with that comparison is that the predator is also overpriced. I'd compare it to 4 eradicators with heavy melta rifles (a strong unit) that would be at the same points. The eradicators would be capable of lot more max damage, would benefit a bit from wounds not spilling over but have shorter range, lower Mv/T/W/Sv, a hit penalty if they moved, and both would have stratagem support. For what it's worth I do think eradicators should go up, and that the land raider should get more interesting fixes. 

 

Yes, Predators are overpriced/not occupying a useful niche, but the comparison is the whole point. A point reduction on the Land Raider just muscles Predators out even more than Razorbacks already did; which is just emphasising the point that points tweaks are a be-all-end-all fix for problematic units, particularly when they have additional knock-on effects.

 

Actual datasheet changes are needed to keep the Land Raider at the roughly 250-280pt mark but with useful (and possible unique/rare) functionality (eg, Assault Ramp)

 

 

So how does adding an assault ramp to the land raider fix the predator? The simple answer is it doesn't, the same is true for dropping the points of just the raider. My point is make a comparison to good things, or suggest a fix for the raider then compare it to a good unit. Whether you improve the Raider through points or an ability it isn't muscling the predator out, the predator got kicked to the shelf a long time ago on its own merit.

 

I do think adding abilities is tougher than people think, more so if you have specific total in mind. If I were a game developer and they wanted me to make the land raider better the first step would be finding what the thing is worth right at this moment. Then I would add abilities maybe the assault ramp rule I suggested earlier, and a covering fire rule (units targeted by the heavy bolter couldn't fire overwatch). Then I would figure out what the abilities were worth and whether or not it needed more. Maybe make power of the machine spirit a rule where its BS didn't degrade, and add extra point of toughness. If it ends up at 250-280 so be it, but I think adding abilities till something is worth a certain point total only makes sense if you know what the thing is worth without them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I can’t even remember the last time I saw a Predator on the table.

[Ishagu]

Predators are actually playable, I just don't want to run one anymore because the model is small and dated...

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Predators frankly needed killshot to be useable. Mine haven't seen play since codex 8.5.

[Ishagu]

Yes and No.

 

It drove them into a singular build, reliant on a Stratagem, and at the risk of being utterly useless if a single tank was destroyed.

 

I was very much of the view that anything that forces me to spam or take a unit is it's maximum number wasn't well considered in the first place.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Ishagu

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I agree, but outside of that one build, they're not seeing play, because they aren't good enough. Their points haven't changed much since, (I think even went down a little), but that didn't help them see play.

 

All of which suggests that giving them a buff, would be more beneficial than simply lowering their cost.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah Predators are actually solid tanks. They're a reasonably priced support tank, though could do with a modest points drop.

 

Anyway, I never mentioned it earlier but Land Raiders should be able to transport Primaris. Of course this means the Repulsor would be potentially in trouble so this likely won't happen.

[Ishagu]

The Repulsor is Still more useful than any Landraider variants thanks to the strat access and more useful firepower, but it's also very overpriced.

 

I still can't believe that a 6-7% point drop was all GW amended in the CA book. It should have been 20-30% drops

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah the Repulsor definitely is overpriced. The latest Chapter Approved hurt my soul...

[Waking Dreamer]

So if I'm reading the general opinions about the land raider points drop, the consensus is:

 

- Drop 20pts = 265pts; mostly negligible, nice for people already running LRs in narrative/casual games.

- Drop 40-50pts = 235pts; viable for people who want to use LRs in semi-competitive games.

- Drop 57-85pts = 200pts; competitive for tournaments, meta/net-lists challengers.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Waking Dreamer

I think consensus may be a strong term for this thread lol. I actually think 200 pts was suggested by someone who doesn't think units should be fixed by points.

 

That said your list is probably pretty close when I was suggesting point drops I was thinking arounf 20% which would've been been close to 230 but I wasn't trying to break the thing either.