People's thoughts on Heavy Intercessors.

[CCE1981]

I am liking the idea of using 2x 10-man squads them with Dark Angels. You’re opponent won’t get much reprieve engaging them in melee. For a 1CP Stratagem you can seriously reduce engagement range in melee, then army wide you can shoot your 3-shot str 5 guns in the melee they are in on a 4+ to hit. Mix in some counter charging Bladeguard, who can’t be wounded on a three or less, and I think you have something pretty intractable.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Moving forward I am thinking they will be required, basing this on the release that shows Orcs going to toughness 5 helps to reinforce that.

I don't think they'll be required. T5 Orks will actually be a problem for these guys, heavy Intercessors are definitely designed for durability not offense. I don't think they'll cause enough damage before being charged and they aren't good in CC.

 

That said marines have plenty of options I could see Redemptors with onslaught cannons doing work against Orks.

 

 

Intercessors are good in CC so I don't see how T5 ones would be any worse. All you lose is 1 extra chainsword attack from the sergeant.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I can see a big squad being decent in a WS list for melee .

[Karhedron]

Intercessors are good in CC so I don't see how T5 ones would be any worse. All you lose is 1 extra chainsword attack from the sergeant.

I normally run my Intercessor Sergeants with something a bit more punchy. My Wolf ones go all out with a THammer. I guess against Orks with just a 6+ save it won't make a lot of difference.

[Ishagu]

I've just built 10 of them, and I was able to generally have them all in a position of aiming down or firing the bolter.

 

They look fantastic in person. I think these might be my favourite Astartes troop infantry - even ahead of the Intercessors that are generally perfect in my eyes.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

Moving forward I am thinking they will be required, basing this on the release that shows Orcs going to toughness 5 helps to reinforce that.

I don't think they'll be required. T5 Orks will actually be a problem for these guys, heavy Intercessors are definitely designed for durability not offense. I don't think they'll cause enough damage before being charged and they aren't good in CC.

 

That said marines have plenty of options I could see Redemptors with onslaught cannons doing work against Orks.

 

 

Intercessors are good in CC so I don't see how T5 ones would be any worse. All you lose is 1 extra chainsword attack from the sergeant.

 

 

1) Your paying more points for the same number of attacks. The added durability does provide an advantage because your more likely to get to swing back but your still paying a premium for them. 

 

2) Karhedron has a valid point about the ability to upgrade the intercessor sergeant.

 

3) I think Intercessors are decent at a close combat, but there is a reason we don't see people go wide with a intercessor spam. They are a classic shoot the stabby stuff, stab the shooty stuff unit. Orks are just stabby lol, marines can play the melee game just well but we rely on our elites more, where as Ork players can expect boyz to cause some chaos.

 

I can see a big squad being decent in a WS list for melee .

 

Yeah but every WS unit is decent at close combat once their super doctrine hits. I'd think they'd still want to prioritize three big squads of vanguard vets before they start looking a big troop units. Could be wrong I like my wolves too much to dabble with white scar rules much. 

 

I've just built 10 of them, and I was able to generally have them all in a position of aiming down or firing the bolter.

 

They look fantastic in person. I think these might be my favourite Astartes troop infantry - even ahead of the Intercessors that are generally perfect in my eyes.

 

Awesome means you made a great purchase. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Three wounds at T5 Sv3+ versus two wounds at T4 Sv2+/4++… you can use Transhuman for the HI - for WS they are more of a threat than some might realize plus they prolly will end up making it to turn 3.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Three wounds at T5 Sv3+ versus two wounds at T4 Sv2+/4++… you can use Transhuman for the HI - for WS they are more of a threat than some might realize plus they prolly will end up making it to turn 3.

They for sure have value, I just don't think your taking them for melee. If anything I think their main value for scars would be that you don't have to support them which is really nice in an aggressive army.

 

Granted I play space wolves, and I tend to be snobby when it comes to what I consider good at close combat.

[Tokugawa]

They generate much more value in death watch than in any other chapters.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I never said take them for melee… just that they are more dangerous than some might not realize.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I can see a big squad being decent in a WS list for melee .

 

 

I never said take them for melee… just that they are more dangerous than some might not realize.

 

Your first post was probably a little a vague. Either way it doesn't matter we both think they're useful.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I never said take them for melee… 

 

Which means we need a melee version 

[Ishagu]

Well, we have Aggressors. They are very good in melee.

[Closet Skeleton]

 Flesh Tearers ones will be nasty in melee.

 

 

1) Your paying more points for the same number of attacks. The added durability does provide an advantage because your more likely to get to swing back but your still paying a premium for them. 

 

2) Karhedron has a valid point about the ability to upgrade the intercessor sergeant.

 

3) I think Intercessors are decent at a close combat, but there is a reason we don't see people go wide with a intercessor spam. They are a classic shoot the stabby stuff, stab the shooty stuff unit. Orks are just stabby lol, marines can play the melee game just well but we rely on our elites more, where as Ork players can expect boyz to cause some chaos.

 

 

Their two drawbacks are having a premium cost while being unable to pay even more points for a side-ways specialisation?

 

I was taking 30 Intercessors and winning 4-5 tournament games in 8th ed but I wasn't net listing as all my Primaris units came bundled in boxes (only thing I bought on its own were characters and oddly enough a box of Reivers and another of Intercessors). Who knows what 'people in general are taking'.

 

Intercessors can tear to shreds 1/3 of this game's melee specialists. I don't pull them back from Wyches, Hybrid Acolytes, Genestealers or Slugga Boys, I soften them up in the shooting phase then charge in because if I'm losing out on a phase of damage I'm waisting more points than I might lose from the odd rock saw/power claw hit that I can just mitigate with transhuman physiology anyway. Of course I don't feel the same way about hammernators or Assault Centurions but even against stuff like Adeptus Custodes its sometimes worth going into assault doctrine and just charging in. With Infiltrators to stop deep strikes Slugga Boys weren't getting near an Intercessor in the kind of numbers needed to be better in combat. We'll see how t5 changes things.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Captain Idaho]

Well, we have Aggressors. They are very good in melee.

Well that's a different discussion but I don't think they are. Hitting on 4s really sucks for Marines in melee. And compared to their role rivals I don't believe they are cutting it.

 

Heavy Intercessors in melee are good enough in a defensive manner and I found late game their multiple attacks and T5 is very difficult to get around for other Troops choices that might be scrapping for Objectives.

 

I found out this the hard way.

[Ishagu]

Yes but they can get access to full re-rolls, and have 4 attacks each on the charge.

 

75% chance to hit or better when you add things like Chaplains. And with flat damage 2 now they are reliable damage dealers.

 

They're as good as anything in the codex.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

They're totally not. They are outclassed in melee by Bladeguard, Terminators have better deployment options and access to Fury of the First...

 

All of those options can receive the exact benefits of full re-rolls as well.

[Ishagu]

Bladeguard have better potential in other chapters, but Aggressors is particular are actually pretty good with Ultras. Especially as they can leave combat, shoot and charge again using our strat.

 

A cc unit that can hurt Elites and vehicles in combat, and clear out chaff in shooting.

[Captain Idaho]

Terminators are better at doing it though. They clear chaff, have better close combat potential thanks to Fury of the First, superior survivability and teleport. They also have better range and come in cheaper in points for the privilege.

 

So even if you want to talk about Ultramarines exclusively Aggressors just aren't as good.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

Aggressors have access to gene-wrought might, transhuman philology, and have more attacks.

 

And more shots, 6+D6 per model.

 

Terminators are definitely close to them, in some ways better. Some unique versions of Terminators are brilliant.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

1 more attack per model but hitting on a 4+ isn't that good. Transhuman Physiology is okay on them, Gene Wrought Might is great, but now you're talking about piling on Command Points to make them achieve what other units can do better anyway.

 

Objectively speaking, Terminators are a superior choice most of the time due to being a smaller investment for the role. However, if you hate Firstborn and want a unit to hold the midfield with a shooting and melee element you can use Aggressors to fill the gap a little less efficiently.

 

But your comment was Aggressors are as good as anything in the Codex just isn't true unfortunately.

[Ishagu]

They deal more damage than Terminators, but are less durable.

 

The durability can be supplemented with psychic powers, Apothecary and various strategems as and when required.

 

I don't see Terminators as a superior option. Bladeguard are a fantastic unit but not necessarily as useful with Ultramarines - other chapters can play them better.

[XeonDragon]

Ah... the aggressors v terminators argument. I have been running a 2k list with both in them. Can confirm that aggressors do more work, but chew up CP and die more quickly... especially after the CP runs out. Terminators hang around longer (without using CP) and whilst they do less work, I am leaning slightly towards terminators being a better choice simply as I feel 9th ed, durability is a very, very important attribute. 

 

That said, using aggressors and an apothecary to get somewhere quick (either by advance and shoot or MOA) and clear screens and then (T2) dropping in some terminators to reinforce that part of the board works like a treat

Edited June 7, 2021 by XeonDragon

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you last longer you do more damage.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

If you last longer you do more damage.

not necessarily