Opinions for crusade

[Dread]

We have a crusade going at local store that I've been playing with my sisters to no avail. The primarus, go figure, have made it very rough. 6 games, 0 victories just plain totalled. My next game will be with my DE. Here is my list for a 75 PL. Any input will be appreciated.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [74 PL, 6CP, 1,650pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [6CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points)

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

Obsession: Cult of the Cursed Blade: Only The Strong Will Survive

 

+ HQ +

 

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug), Traitor's Embrace, Treacherous Deceiver, Warlord

. Blast Pistol & Archite Glaive

 

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Blast Pistol & Archite Glaive

 

+ Troops +

 

Wyches [3 PL, 50pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Hekatarii Blade, Splinter Pistol

. 4x Wych: 4x Hekatarii Blade, 4x Plasma Grenades, 4x Splinter Pistol

 

Wyches [6 PL, 120pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power sword, Splinter Pistol

. 8x Wych: 8x Hekatarii Blade, 8x Plasma Grenades, 8x Splinter Pistol

. Wych w/ Shardnet and Impaler: Shardnet and Impaler

 

Wyches [6 PL, 120pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power sword, Splinter Pistol

. 8x Wych: 8x Hekatarii Blade, 8x Plasma Grenades, 8x Splinter Pistol

. Wych w/ Shardnet and Impaler: Shardnet and Impaler

 

Wyches [6 PL, 115pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power sword, Splinter Pistol

. 8x Wych: 8x Hekatarii Blade, 8x Plasma Grenades, 8x Splinter Pistol

. Wych w/ Hydra Gauntlets: Hydra Gauntlets

 

+ Elites +

 

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]

. 4x Incubi: 4x Klaive

. Klaivex: Klaive

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Hellions [7 PL, 175pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Helliarch: Hellglaive, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

. 9x Hellion: 9x Hellglaive, 9x Splinter Pods

 

Hellions [7 PL, 175pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Helliarch: Hellglaive, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

. 9x Hellion: 9x Hellglaive, 9x Splinter Pods

 

Reavers [6 PL, 155pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug), Cluster caltrops, Grav-talon

. Arena Champion: Power sword, Splinter Rifle

. 3x Reaver: 3x Bladevanes, 3x Splinter Pistol, 3x Splinter Rifle

. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster

. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Raider [5 PL, 115pts]: Chain-snares, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow, Splinter racks, Wych Cult

 

Raider [5 PL, 115pts]: Chain-snares, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow, Splinter racks, Wych Cult

 

Raider [5 PL, 120pts]: Chain-snares, Disintegrator Cannon, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow, Splinter racks, Wych Cult

 

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon, Wych Cult

 

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon, Wych Cult

 

++ Total: [74 PL, 6CP, 1,650pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

[ThePenitentOne]

I am without my books for a few days, so I can't tear apart specific rules seeking combos, but I like the way this would look on the table- pure Wych cult is an interesting choice.

 

You've used 2 RP as far as I can tell- one for your WL trait and one for your Relic. Did other RP go to your Supply limit?

 

Also, you list both PL and points; which will you use with your group? If it's PL, you might as well take Grav Talons on one of your Reavers- they're free (or rather, their cost has already been factored into the PL for the unit).

 

Curious about your plan for growth. If you are Crusading, I'd make your Succubus an Ascendant  Lord so you can collect raid spoils- again, that's free. This is especially awesome if there are other Drukhari in your campaign, because you can steal their territories, though they can steal yours. I forget whether the Crusade rules allow you to start with a Master Succubus or whether you have to earn it, but that's another upgrade to consider at some point. 

 

Of course, your Ascendant and your Master can't be the same person, and the master upgrade isn't free.

 

I also have questions about the sisters you played; you mentioned that their win rate wasn't great, but did you achieve any cool story hooks with them? When I Crusade, I care way less about winning than I do achieving agendas and leveling up and growing the army. I think it's important to keep that approach in mind- though it sounds like your Crusade will be part of a limited campaign were there will be a campaign winner based on victories, rather than just playing to grow.

 

Also, don't write sisters off for Crusade- you'll have their bespoke Crusade content in 12 days, and there have been two hints so far that Living Sainthood will be a Crusade option... How cool is that? Of course, a Commorrite Gang Lord is just as cool, so six in one, half a dozen in the other.

Edited June 1, 2021 by ThePenitentOne

[WarriorFish]

I'm too out of date on specifics to go over any details to help, but as an overall look it feels like a good approach to a Cult list in units. So all I can say is good luck and let us know how it goes :tu:

[Dread]

Thanks guys.

 

As for the sisters, other than die horribly they got no story parts. Its not the winning its the cant even compete that i dont like. New book may fix them so i havent completely set them out.

 

Since i am bring in a new list and i was given an extra 5 rp so from my 50 pl start i added the 25 pl and the other 2 rp as you stated, leaving me with 3 rp. I will be ascending my succubus after first game. Says in the book after so then i will also get blood brides. As for the points, the program i used shows both so copy paste shows it all.Thanks

 

Here is the revised list.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [74 PL, 6CP, 1,675pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [6CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points)

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

Obsession: Cult of the Cursed Blade: Only The Strong Will Survive

 

+ HQ +

 

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug), Traitor's Embrace, Treacherous Deceiver, Warlord

. Blast Pistol & Archite Glaive

 

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Blast Pistol & Archite Glaive

 

+ Troops +

 

Wyches [3 PL, 60pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Agoniser, Blast Pistol

. 4x Wych: 4x Hekatarii Blade, 4x Plasma Grenades, 4x Splinter Pistol

 

Wyches [6 PL, 125pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power sword

. 8x Wych: 8x Hekatarii Blade, 8x Plasma Grenades, 8x Splinter Pistol

. Wych w/ Shardnet and Impaler: Shardnet and Impaler

 

Wyches [6 PL, 125pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power sword

. 8x Wych: 8x Hekatarii Blade, 8x Plasma Grenades, 8x Splinter Pistol

. Wych w/ Shardnet and Impaler: Shardnet and Impaler

 

Wyches [6 PL, 120pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power sword

. 8x Wych: 8x Hekatarii Blade, 8x Plasma Grenades, 8x Splinter Pistol

. Wych w/ Hydra Gauntlets: Hydra Gauntlets

 

+ Elites +

 

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]

. 4x Incubi: 4x Klaive

. Klaivex: Klaive

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Hellions [7 PL, 175pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Helliarch: Hellglaive, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

. 9x Hellion: 9x Hellglaive, 9x Splinter Pods

 

Hellions [7 PL, 175pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)

. Helliarch: Hellglaive, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

. 9x Hellion: 9x Hellglaive, 9x Splinter Pods

 

Reavers [6 PL, 155pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug), 2x Grav-talon

. Arena Champion: Power sword, Splinter Rifle

. 3x Reaver: 3x Bladevanes, 3x Splinter Pistol, 3x Splinter Rifle

. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance

. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Raider [5 PL, 115pts]: Chain-snares, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow, Splinter racks, Wych Cult

 

Raider [5 PL, 115pts]: Chain-snares, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow, Splinter racks, Wych Cult

 

Raider [5 PL, 120pts]: Chain-snares, Disintegrator Cannon, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow, Splinter racks, Wych Cult

 

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon, Wych Cult

 

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon, Wych Cult

 

++ Total: [74 PL, 6CP, 1,675pts] ++

Edited June 2, 2021 by Dread

[Angel of Death]

i dont want to sound rude now, but the reason youre not winning is probably cuz ure playing wyches.

sorry to say it, but wyches havent been a good unit for waayyy back.

if you want to just have fun and roll some dice, wyches are decent i guess,

but i mean just look at your result, losing 6 games?? i mean. wyches are ineffective at most things.

they cant hold objectives - gunned down. they cant kill stuff in close combat - pinned down.

they are ineffective at both killing stuff that kabalites couldve done easily, and

they are a very weak melee unit, clocking in at STR3 and TGH3, 2 attacks only.

 

useless. take kabalites and use your venoms.

[Dread]

Not rude. But the games i lost were with sisters of battle. Trying to find an alternate army to play. With the upcoming sisters dex and models i may judt stay with them. As for wyches, i agree with you 100% but you know your gonna lose them. Unlike sisters which should have more staying power.

 

Anyhow how does this look?

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [73 PL, 6CP, 1,505pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [6CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points)

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

Obsession: Kabal of the Obsidian Rose: Flawless Workmanship

 

+ HQ +

 

Archon [4 PL, 70pts]: Blast Pistol, Overlord, Power sword, Soul Thirst, The Armour of Misery, Warlord

 

Archon [4 PL, 70pts]: Blast Pistol, Overlord, Power sword

 

+ Troops +

 

Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 125pts]

. 6x Kabalite Warrior: 6x Splinter Rifle

. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster

. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster

. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance

. Sybarite: Blast Pistol, Power sword

 

Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 125pts]

. 6x Kabalite Warrior: 6x Splinter Rifle

. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster

. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster

. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance

. Sybarite: Blast Pistol, Power sword

 

Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 125pts]

. 6x Kabalite Warrior: 6x Splinter Rifle

. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster

. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster

. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance

. Sybarite: Blast Pistol, Power sword

 

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]

. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle

. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster

. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Scourges [5 PL, 100pts]

. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat Lance

. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat Lance

. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat Lance

. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat Lance

. Solarite: Shardcarbine

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Ravager [8 PL, 160pts]: Chain-snares, 3x Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow

 

Ravager [8 PL, 160pts]: Chain-snares, 3x Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow

 

Ravager [8 PL, 175pts]: Chain-snares, 3x Disintegrator cannon, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Raider [5 PL, 115pts]: Chain-snares, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Kabal, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow, Splinter racks

 

Raider [5 PL, 115pts]: Chain-snares, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Kabal, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow, Splinter racks

 

Raider [5 PL, 115pts]: Chain-snares, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Kabal, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow, Splinter racks

 

++ Total: [73 PL, 6CP, 1,505pts] ++[/b

Edited June 2, 2021 by Dread

[Widowmaker82]

For starters, wyches have a minimum of 4 attacks each - 3 on the basic wych profile and at least 1 additional attack from every weapon option they can take. The hekatrix gets 4 base attacks, though the agonizer and power sword add no extra attacks. On top of that combat drugs are choose 1 or roll for 2 - so you can make all your wyches S4 (which I see you have done). I'm not sure when 40 S4 (or higher), WS3+ attacks with AP -1 (or better), plus an AP improved by 1 for each 6 to wound, became useless in melee!!!

 

The general consensus from what I have read (plus my own thoughts) is that wyches are one of the most improved units from last edition for drukhari.

 

Is there any reason you haven't taken the full complement of wych weapons? Is it just how they are built? The razorflails are just a straight upgrade on hekatarii blades (6 attacks for the model rather than 4, otherwise the stats are the same). Hydra gauntlets are better stats as well, though they have the minor downside of having to be rolled for separately from the hekatarii blades (you have the same issue with the impaler and power sword or agonizer though).

 

Their fragility to shooting is dealt with by being in the much maligned (by drukhari opposition) raider. Though a warning there is that the FAQ just changed them to PL6 and increased their points. Once in combat they've got a 4+ invulnerable so no slouches. Plus they can prevent enemies falling back to stay in combat where they want

 

You may want to consider whether grave lotus is absolutely necessary on the reavers and hellions. They're both already S4, and both get reasonably decent use out of any of the results on the combat drugs table. I'd be tempted to roll for 2 random results on the table for both those units.

 

In fact, I'm not definite you have to stick to a certain choice on any units throughout the campaign? Could be wrong, but it does say you select them before the battle - though it also says if you want to randomly select them you right Random on the roster. Somewhat ambiguous and not sure it's clarified anywhere. Given the option to choose/roll before each battle there may be games where a different option would be preferable - e.g. grave lotus isn't doing much for you against Death Guard (at least not on the wyches).

 

There are some changes I would make - 

 

1. Add the additional wych weapons to the 3 squads of 10. I'm a fan of some variety where available.

2. Put a heat lance on the arena champion instead of one of the basic reavers. That way you don't have to choose between losing the arena champion or a heat lance when 4 are killed.

3. Remove the splinter racks on the raiders. They only affect rapid fire splinter weapons, and none of the models you have that can board a raider have a rapid fire weapon. 

4. Just generally tone down the upgrades on the raiders. It looks like you've taken literally everything, even splinter racks that are useless to you. Do you really need the shock prows on all of them? Have you modelled all of them on (they only come in the ravager kit)? Or are you just taking advantage of the way power works?

 

Anyway, I still rather like your list. I commend you for going wych cults only and for avoiding the worst offenders in the codex that GW recently toned back down.

 

It is quite hard to evaluate more without consideration of the actual lists you'll use in games. Have you thought about how you'll make 25 or 50 PL lists (or whatever power level people might actually play in the campaign) from your roster? It shouldn't be too hard due to the fact you're playing wych cult only - I found making a mixed kabal/cult crusade force for drukhari difficult at best; it's more like writing two separate 25PL lists.

Edited June 7, 2021 by TrawlingCleaner

[Dread]

Oh i thought it meant you could only have one wych weapon. But its one of each so ill fix that. Thanks for pointing that out. Also i usually do the 2 random cc drugs and after you pointed that oit i will go back to that. Also the arena champ, good call didnt realize they could, ill be fixing that.

 

Also have to fix the PL on the raiders, hadnt seen that yet.

 

Thanks for the help guys. I really want to use my wych army. Win, lose or draw.

 

I guess ill have to drop the incubi to make points room.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [70 PL, 6CP, 1,585pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [6CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points)

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

Obsession: Cult of the Cursed Blade: Only The Strong Will Survive

 

+ HQ +

 

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug), Traitor's Embrace, Treacherous Deceiver, Warlord

. Blast Pistol & Archite Glaive

 

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)

. Blast Pistol & Archite Glaive

 

+ Troops +

 

Wyches [3 PL, 60pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Agoniser, Blast Pistol

. 4x Wych: 4x Hekatarii Blade, 4x Plasma Grenades, 4x Splinter Pistol

 

Wyches [6 PL, 135pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power sword

. 6x Wych: 6x Hekatarii Blade, 6x Plasma Grenades, 6x Splinter Pistol

. Wych w/ Hydra Gauntlets: Hydra Gauntlets

. Wych w/ Razorflails: Razorflails

. Wych w/ Shardnet and Impaler: Shardnet and Impaler

 

Wyches [6 PL, 135pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power sword

. 6x Wych: 6x Hekatarii Blade, 6x Plasma Grenades, 6x Splinter Pistol

. Wych w/ Hydra Gauntlets: Hydra Gauntlets

. Wych w/ Razorflails: Razorflails

. Wych w/ Shardnet and Impaler: Shardnet and Impaler

 

Wyches [6 PL, 135pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)

. Hekatrix: Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power sword

. 6x Wych: 6x Hekatarii Blade, 6x Plasma Grenades, 6x Splinter Pistol

. Wych w/ Hydra Gauntlets: Hydra Gauntlets

. Wych w/ Razorflails: Razorflails

. Wych w/ Shardnet and Impaler: Shardnet and Impaler

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Hellions [7 PL, 175pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)

. Helliarch: Hellglaive, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

. 9x Hellion: 9x Hellglaive, 9x Splinter Pods

 

Hellions [7 PL, 175pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)

. Helliarch: Hellglaive, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

. 9x Hellion: 9x Hellglaive, 9x Splinter Pods

 

Reavers [6 PL, 155pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug), 2x Grav-talon

. Arena Champion: Heat Lance, Power sword

. 4x Reaver: 4x Bladevanes, 4x Splinter Pistol, 4x Splinter Rifle

. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Raider [5 PL, 100pts]: Chain-snares, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Wych Cult

 

Raider [5 PL, 100pts]: Chain-snares, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Wych Cult

 

Raider [5 PL, 105pts]: Chain-snares, Disintegrator Cannon, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Wych Cult

 

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon, Wych Cult

 

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon, Wych Cult

 

++ Total: [70 PL, 6CP, 1,585pts] ++

 

 

Well shoot, i have an extra venom now. Have to figure that out. Anyhow let me know of any other ideas y'all might have.

 

Can you tell me where the points cost change is? I looked at errata and didnt see it.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Dread

[Widowmaker82]

Link to the FAQ:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/UsesnvPePAiqxPXL.pdf

 

Raiders are up to Power 6 and cost 95 points base. Drazhar has gone up as well, not that you have him in your list.

 

So your most recent list is up to 73 Power due to that change. I don't think that's an issue though; if you've been given an extra 5 requisition points to start with you need to be spending at least 6 of them. You never want to start a crusade game with more than 4 because you're guaranteed one after each game and can't have more than 5 (under normal circumstances). You can actually get more than one requisition point in some cases, so spending 7 isn't a bad idea either. Looks like you've used 2 for a warlord trait and relic, so taking the list up to 75 power (another 5 requisition points) isn't a bad idea. 

 

You've gone a bit all or nothing on the changes though! The suggestion for using two random combat drugs isn't something you need to apply to every unit! Some units probably do benefit more from choosing them; wyches included. It is kind of match-up dependant, so you may want to check with the campaign organiser/group if they are happy with you deciding on combat drugs before each game or if they want you to select them and stick with that choice throughout the campaign.

 

For example, Grave Lotus is really good against a majority T4 army (Marines) or even a majority T3 army (Sisters, Guard etc) but isn't much good for your wyches when fighting a majority T5 army (Death Guard, lots of Necron models, Orks when the new codex drops). Serpentin isn't amazing on wyches either because they'll gain the bonus to hit in melee from turn 3 anyway (Power from Pain) and they're not always going to make combat before turn 3. Splintermind isn't that great on them either because their shooting attacks aren't why you're taking them - so in some cases rolling 2 randomly is actually quite dicey because half the results are somewhere between mediocre to bad. Having said that, rolling randomly for everyone is certainly more fun!

 

You also completely did away with the shock prows - you could have kept one in there! I don't really see the point in taking loads of them, but it might be fun to keep one in there to give you the option to use the stratagem. You have to kind of Comorragh Drift the raider into the enemy unit and make contact side on to get much use out of it though

 

Have you considered dropping the second succubus to keep the incubi instead?

[Dread]

I can actually spend 1 more RP to up the points to 80 with no problem meaning ive spent 8 of my 10 RP. Dropping the other succubus could work to keep the incubi for sure. Hoping to get to play soon as a 75 pl game. They are kinda all over as far as games. Some at 25 others at 50 and some at 75. Either way im covered with 80 pl to pull from. Thanks for the help and the link.

 

Maybe painbringer on the wyches for cd.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Dread

[Widowmaker82]

I just realised I'd completely overlooked which obsession you were taking! So all your models already have +1S due to the obsession. 

 

It doesn't completely invalidate the advice about Grave Lotus - it's still good vs certain armies and bad/useless against others. But the armies it is good against is quite different. It does nothing for your wyches against T3, good against T4 and T5, nothing against T6 or T7, and it's good against T8 or T9 (not likely to see too much of T8+ unless you have an Imperial/Chaos Knights player in the campaign?). So Grave Lotus is a good option for the wyches against a majority T4 or T5 opponent and bad against a majority T3 opponent.

 

Just another option I thought of for getting the Incubi back in the list (and give that second Venom a purpose) is to drop one of the Hellions units down to 5? That would make your list power level 74 (with the increased PL for raiders and a unit of Incubi factored in), which isn't a bad place to be. After 2-3 games you'll be able to upgrade one of your succubi to a master succubus, which increases her power level by 1, and takes you to a nice round 75. Just an idea though.

 

The smaller Hellions unit might also give you a few more options when building armies for different power levels. For example at 25 power level you could do the following:

 

Succubus (3)

10 Wyches (6)

10 Wyches or 6 Reavers (6)

Raider (6)

5 Hellions (4)

 

Another option for 25 power (using current roster) is:

 

Succubus (3)

5 Wyches (3)

10 Wyches (6)

10 Wyches or 6 Reavers or Raider (6)

10 Hellions (7)

 

Anyway, just some ideas for you, and I thought it was best to clarify the point about Grave Lotus as I was wrong to ignore your Obsession choice.

 

Also a very minor point, but the wyches with razorflails, hydra gauntlets and shardnet/impaler should still have plasma grenades. They don't lose those when taking the wych weapons, but your roster doesn't include them. That's probably an issue with battle scribe (I think that's what you've used?). You'll always want to use one of those models (or all three if you use the Cult of the Cursed Blade stratagem) to chuck a grenade though as they lack any other ranged weapons.

 

Edit: Your Hekatrix should also have plasma grenades in each squad.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Widowmaker82

[Dread]

Love the hellions idea, doing that for sure. The grenade thing is battlescribes miss. I know they have them so... Using the cursed blade with grave lotus seems like a good call against most armies. Wounding on 3 mostly so should make the enemy take more saves hopefully causing them to fail more.

 

 

Thanks for the list ideas as well, they are really under advisement. After first game will use a rp to get another relic. What and for who I'm not sure yet as well as get a master set up.

[Widowmaker82]

You can't do the master upgrade until you reach one of the three crusade ranks (so at 6XP minimum). Possible in one game, more likely two games or even 3. Once you do that you can also add a unit of bloodbrides to the roster as well.

 

One of obvious combos for a succubus is the triptych whip relic and precision blows warlord trait. The relic replaces an agoniser (so you'd either need a new succubus or keep your second succubus armed with an agoniser rather than blast pistol), but the combo gives you 9 attacks (or more if you take Adrenalight), that are poison 2+, AP -3 (AP -4 on 6 to wound), 2D each and 6s to hit convert to 2 mortal wounds (instead of carrying on that attack; so not in addition to extra damage). She's a pretty decent blender, even against marines, because of her 2D weapon. She can reasonably be expected to kill 6 marines in one round of combat.

 

Sadly, half of the drukhari requisitions don't work with a wych cult only army (it would be the same issue with a coven only list too). Two of them are for Archons only (Soul Trap and Clandestine Dealings) and one other is for Haemonculus or Archon only. The other three are only useable later on in the campaign, so you'll be stuck using the basic requisitions for a while. On the other hand, the gruesome bounty agenda looks like a really good choice for wych cults.

[Dread]

Thanks for the info and help. Havent played my DE in a while so the coaching is really appreciated. Dont have any other DE players around here to jam with.

[Angel of Death]

@dread; I can tell straight off the bat that even if you want them to be good, wyches wont be able to do very much for you. considering the fact that sisters are a strong army, both in melee and combat, you can compare their core unit (dont know what its called) and remember that that unit is a versatile unit, that can do both close combat and ranged combat, with power armor aswell, and that wyches is a unit made only for close combat, and you will see that the SoB sisters squad will kill your troup of wyches 7 days a week. If you are losing a battle against an army that is not made for combat, but can hold down, you have to ask yourself if an assault army, that is MADE for close combat, cant win against a ranged army, then, is that assault army really that great, huh?

 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

the only pro of playing assault is that your enemy is not allowed to shoot if there locked, and if your unit is strong enough, you can take down his troops. great, right? but. the thing is.

dark eldar doesnt 'win' in close combat. I play covens myself, but covens are more similar to plague marines. you just send them in to tank objectives. but atleast when im running prophets of flesh, and rakarth, my troops will be TGH5, and always wound on [4+ poison]. but yeah, I could write a book about this, but yeah.

 

wyches are the reason youre losing. they have become a bit better, but  widow is still bitter, you are still weakest of all three troop options, and compared to for example corresponding units from Chaoz. they would die like flies against khorne berzerkers or possessed marines. or terminators. here's some reading for you, with scource included:

 

 

On the table, Wyches have a fairly standard statline for an Eldar, although with a few changes of note. The big one is 8″ movement; the extra inch might not seem like a lot, but it makes a difference when trying to get those charges off. Aside from that, they have weapon skill and ballistic skill 3+, as is common to all members of their race, and strength and toughness of three as well. Especially combined with their 6+ armor save, this leaves Wyches fairly vulnerable to being cut down by basic attacks- although they do have some limited defenses, as we’ll discuss in the following section. On the other hand, they come with two attacks apiece and a reasonable leadership value of seven, which makes for a fairly decent statline overall. One member of the squad can also be upgraded to a Hekatrix, giving her an extra attack and leadership. However, at 9pts each, they are a bit on the pricey side, especially considering how fragile they can be. Coming in squads of five to twenty, Wyches are a relatively flexible troop option, though arguably the worst of the three available to Drukhari. < scource: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2020/01/01/drukhari-codex-review-troops-wyches/ >

 

*edit: quoting errors.

Edited June 7, 2021 by TrawlingCleaner

[TrawlingCleaner]

Something to remember for both sides of the argument is that no matter how strong a unit is, someone out there will either have great results or not do well with them. Either way it's best not to call other fraeter out for their experiences.

 

Personally Wyches and Wych cult units absolutely smash, pure cult armies or a mix and match have done incredibly well for me. The competitive meta matches this with nearly every list appearing at tournaments having Wyches appear in them.

 

The Wych unit is incredibly strong and improved IMO and I'm looking forward to seeing how your crusade goes. Make sure to report back!

[Angel of Death]

Something to remember for both sides of the argument is that no matter how strong a unit is, someone out there will either have great results or not do well with them. Either way it's best not to call other fraeter out for their experiences.

 

Personally Wyches and Wych cult units absolutely smash, pure cult armies or a mix and match have done incredibly well for me. The competitive meta matches this with nearly every list appearing at tournaments having Wyches appear in them.

 

The Wych unit is incredibly strong and improved IMO and I'm looking forward to seeing how your crusade goes. Make sure to report back!

was that a pique directed at me? be aware that he was the one who started with the ruling techniques, disregarding someone entirely where he created a strawman.

 

wyches are by no means a good unit. its not point efficient, its not worth its points. maybe you can win tournaments with it, but thats the case with eldar, it relies much on personal skill.

 

then I would like to remind you that this is a debating forum, not a club for inner admiration and backpats.

 

im allowed to say a unit sucks, being a mod doesnt give you full veto on the general opinion of how good a unit is; or the right to say that noone can criticise it.

[Dread]

Thanks guys. So here is my main problem. Against 1 primarius army, i believe iron hands, he had a chaplain on bike with a thunder hammer, relic i believe, with 7 attacks. Not to mention his save and toughness on the bike. Mixed with units that had incredible saves and fire power. This one i had my sisters against. The other was blood angels with a hq that negates inv saves and puts out 10 attacks. He had 2 3 man bike units and 5 incestors( i think thats what they were) and i had my harliquins against them.

 

So basically if i had the right combo of sisters then maybe i could stand a chance to do a good showing. Its not winning just not getting wiped from the table on turn 2 or 3. I want to make a 5 turn game, preferably with my sisters which may happen with the new dex and units coming really soon. However i have this huge DE army that i collected at the end of 5th when the new models came out that i would love to field. Some staying power would be nice. The only models i dont have are grotesques but do have lots of everything else.

 

Anyhow thanks for the help both of you. I may be trying the wyches soon. Maybe take out one 10 man squad and add in scourges. Hmm dont know. Will report back wither way, DE or continue with sisters. Might try to get a game in today.

[Widowmaker82]

@Angel of Death - Wyches will absolutely murder Battle Sisters in melee; Battle Sisters will murder Wyches at range. Fortunately, 40K isn't a game of top trumps - there are an infinite set of circumstances to consider when the two units might face each other on the battlefield, and the two units fill very different roles, which means it's almost impossible to compare the two in a meaningful way. 

 

The facts on which you have based your opinion are wrong; you are using out of date stats for them. That quote you have taken from Frontline Gaming is from an article that was posted on 1st January 2020! That doesn't just pre-date the current Drukhari codex... it was posted before 9th edition even came out. So it is an article about wyches for an older edition of 40K using the datasheet from a previous codex. It's quite clear that it is old because it states Wyches have two attacks and cost 9 points; they actually have 3 attacks on their profile (they also get more attacks from their weapons) and cost 10 points each.

 

The following is taken from Goonhammer's review of the latest Drukhari codex: https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-drukhari-9th-edition-the-goonhammer-review/

 

 

 

Wyches absolutely rule – your basic unit of 10 is tossing out 41 attacks, probably at S4, for only 100pts, and the upgrades are pretty strong. Expect to see them everywhere.

Alternatively, if you're a fan of Frontline Gaming, here's a review using the current codex and edition of 40K: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2021/04/14/codex-drukari-review-which-wych/

 

Notable that wyches are rated as Competitive; the highest rating they have!

 

There is one thing I agree with in your posts; you are quite right that you are entitled to your own opinion. But you also have to accept that everyone else is entitled to theirs. Moreover, if your opinion is based on incorrect facts (or not backed up with facts at all, such as making definite statements like "wyches are by no means a good unit.") then I think it is quite right for someone to call that out. Hell, I did that to one of my own posts when I clarified that my previous opinion of Grave Lotus was wrong because I had failed to consider the Obsession @Dread is choosing to use. I'm sorry if you felt my post was a personal attack on you; it was only a critique of your opinion, especially as it misquoted statistics.

 

@Dread - Sorry if I have derailed your thread. I'll crawl back into obscurity where us people with low post counts should lurk

 

I'll sign off by wishing you good luck in the crusade, whatever you decide to do. I only hope something I have written has been some help to you.

Edited June 7, 2021 by TrawlingCleaner

[Dread]

Actually you all have helped me...alot. Showing things from both sides of the glass. I have always hoped that wyches could amount to something, well i own a bunch so hope to not have a waste of money.

 

Im sorry that posting this caused any friction between yall.

 

So thanks again for the help. Will let yall know what happens.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Dread

[Angel of Death]

@dread

the scenario you just described is a perfect example of how wyches lose.

maybe 10 wyches will win x 10 sisters, but the thing is. if your enemy knows wyches are strong, they are going to fight dirty,

and like attack one squad of wyches x 30 sisters in close combat and then gun your other unit down,

and so on. wyches arent a very strong unit. if you really want to take them: atleast the first step

will be to realize that you wont be as strong as a kabalite or covens player.

 

know your enemy and know yourself, or you will succumb in a thousand battles.

 

@widow

you should compare wyches to the dps potential of

for example different chaos units, that is, how much damage you get for each point,

or just look at how much the stats of wyches suck.

 

3 attacks in cc is 30 dice for 10 wyches. many of them will die from overwatch btw. and then you have STR3, meaning,

 

20 attacks will hit, and with STR3, you'll be wounding on 5+ or 6+. so maybe 5-6 wounds == 2 dead space marines. yay.

Edited June 7, 2021 by TrawlingCleaner

[Widowmaker82]

If you are stating things as facts and I don't think those are accurate, I think it it only correct to challenge them. It is only right that the OP (and anyone else reading this thread) is given accurate information.

 

A standard wych has 3 attacks on their profile, and every weapon option they can take (the hekatarii blades they come with, or the razorflails/hydra gauntlets/shardnet and impaler upgrades) add at least 1 extra attack (razorflails double their basic attacks to 6 instead). 

 

The hekatrix (unit leader) comes with 4 attacks base, but their upgrade weapons (power sword or agonizer) don't add additional attacks.

 

Therefore, a unit of 10 using just hekatarii blades has 41 attacks. With razorflails in the unit you'll have a few more attacks.

 

A basic wych is just S3 as you say, which is a pretty terrible stat for a melee unit (plus most of the weapons they can have don't boost that stat). However, the obsession Dread is using gives all of his wych cult units +1S. In addition, wyches now have free choice of combat drugs and one of those (Grave Lotus) gives you +1S. So anyone can take much more respectable S4 Wyches, while Dread can make his S5 if he wants. The Hydra Gauntlets and Power Sword both improve the strength of the attacks further.

 

Finally, one of the biggest improvements to wyches is that they now have some AP. The basic hekatarii blade and razorflail are AP -1, hydra gauntlets and impalers are AP -2, while power swords and agonisers are AP -3. Blade artists gives them an additional -1AP if they roll a natural 6 to wound.

 

I've run some numbers (I've got a degree in Maths so I'm pretty good at fairly basic - but time consuming - probability calculations) to work out expected numbers of wounds for a few different situations vs Space Marines. By expected wounds I mean probability each attack hits, wounds and save is failed, multiplied by number of attacks and multiplied by damage (only for the impaler does that matter as the other weapons are damage 1). I don't think it is the absolute best way to measure a units efficiency, but it is reasonably quick to calculate and gives you a reasonable idea.

 

I've based all of these figures on a unit of 10 wyches using the Cult of the Cursed Blade obsession (as this is the OP's chosen cult), so they're all at least S4 (or S5 with Grave Lotus). The figures for adrenalight assume the unit has charged (otherwise just use the figures for no combat drugs).

 

No upgrades (all using hekatarii blades)

No combat drugs (turns 1-2) = 7.59 wounds

No combat drugs (turns 3+) = 9.49 wounds (also works for Serpentin in any turn)

Grave Lotus (turns 1-2) = 9.87 wounds

Grave Lotus (turns 3+) = 12.34 wounds

Adrenalight (turns 1-2) = 9.44 wounds

Adrenalight (turns 3+) = 11.81 wounds

 

Fully loaded (power sword on hekatrix and one of each wych weapon)

No combat drugs (turns 1-2) = 10.31 wounds

No combat drugs (turns 3+) = 12.89 wounds (also works for Serpentin in any turn)

Grave Lotus (turns 1-2) = 12.57 wounds

Grave Lotus (turns 3+) = 15.72 wounds

Adrenalight (turns 1-2) = 12.98 wounds

Adrenalight (turns 3+) = 16.23 wounds

 

I think the main thing of interest to Dread here is that for the units of 10 wyches he is running, Adrenalight is the marginally more efficient option against Space Marines. That surprised me anyway. I've worked on the basis that with Adrenalight active the wych with razorflails gets 8 attacks (3 attacks, plus 1 then doubled) rather than 7 attacks (3 attacks doubled, then plus 1). If I'm wrong then you need to deduct 0.19 from the turn 1-2 result and 0.24 from the turn 3+ result.

 

There's potential to boost these results a little further with various buffs. The Succubus allows any wych cult core unit within 6" to re-roll 1s to wound in melee. A couple of stratagems could also help. Prey on the Weak allows you to re-roll 1s to wound if the enemy unit is below starting strength or re-roll all wounds if the unit is below half strength - probably only really worth it if you're outside Succubus aura range.

 

Hyperstimm Backlash costs 2CP, but it doubles the bonus of your combat drugs. Not really worth it if using Grave Lotus on Cursed Blade Wyches vs Space Marines; the only weapon that benefits is the hydra gauntlets (which would be hitting at a comical S8!). Adrenalight on the other hand goes quite insane when your basic wyches are rolling 6 attacks each and the razorflails wych is rolling 10 attacks (maybe 8) for a total of 64 attacks from the unit. If you're hitting the unit in turn 3+ (when power from pain gives you +1 to hit in melee) or you are using bloodbrides (who have WS2+ as standard), then I wouldn't be that surprised to see that unit of 10 wyches wipe a unit of 10 Space Marines of the board (the basic 2 wound, 3+ save guys, not Gravis stuff or Terminators etc.).

 

Having written yet another long post on wyches I will finish by saying that I don't think they are the greatest unit ever. I do believe they are much improved from the previous codex and I do think they can get work done. You can't throw them into anything the opponent has and expect them to total it; they're only a 6 power or 135 point unit so they shouldn't be able to either. They do have obvious weaknesses, particularly on the defense, though this can be overcome in some part by transporting them in the deceptively tough Raider. I would agree with Angel of Death that overwatch is something they should really fear; however, overwatch is a lot less scary now that it's a stratagem to use. And the age old tactic of charging the enemy unit with your Raiders/Venoms first is even more enticing now that Drukhari vehicles are vaguely competent in melee.

 

God I can't help myself... another stupidly long post in this thread!

Edited June 7, 2021 by TrawlingCleaner

[Dread]

Wow! I have to say. I love this breakdown. I usually dislike mathhammer and have frowned upon it for years but to actually see the possibility of wrecking SM units is great. My idea was to hit with wyches who can trigger overwatch and also hit same unit with hellions or reavers hoping for over kill and having the succubus close by for clean up if needed.

 

So seeing the numbers gives me hope that i can take objectives with one of the fast units while his attention is turned to the blood bath taking place with his units. So critical part is initiating the charge in order to strike first.

 

Thanks again.

[TrawlingCleaner]

I've edited Widowmaker82 and Angel of Death's posts to remove the sniping at each other, none of it was needed. My nudge post was directed at the both of you to consider that both sides are valid, not everyone will have success with the same force/unit.

If you have an issue with a comment posted by another user, please report it and don't reply to it as it just exasperates the issue further. If you have an issue with the way moderating is done in a thread it's better to PM the moderator in question or to PM the admins, than to call out in a thread.

 

Aside from this, the discussion on Wyches in this thread has been great and I hope to hear about your crusade results Dread!

Edited June 7, 2021 by TrawlingCleaner

[Angel of Death]

If you are stating things as facts and I don't think those are accurate, I think it it only correct to challenge them. It is only right that the OP (and anyone else reading this thread) is given accurate information.

 

A standard wych has 3 attacks on their profile, and every weapon option they can take (the hekatarii blades they come with, or the razorflails/hydra gauntlets/shardnet and impaler upgrades) add at least 1 extra attack (razorflails double their basic attacks to 6 instead). 

 

The hekatrix (unit leader) comes with 4 attacks base, but their upgrade weapons (power sword or agonizer) don't add additional attacks.

 

Therefore, a unit of 10 using just hekatarii blades has 41 attacks. With razorflails in the unit you'll have a few more attacks.

 

A basic wych is just S3 as you say, which is a pretty terrible stat for a melee unit (plus most of the weapons they can have don't boost that stat). However, the obsession Dread is using gives all of his wych cult units +1S. In addition, wyches now have free choice of combat drugs and one of those (Grave Lotus) gives you +1S. So anyone can take much more respectable S4 Wyches, while Dread can make his S5 if he wants. The Hydra Gauntlets and Power Sword both improve the strength of the attacks further.

 

Finally, one of the biggest improvements to wyches is that they now have some AP. The basic hekatarii blade and razorflail are AP -1, hydra gauntlets and impalers are AP -2, while power swords and agonisers are AP -3. Blade artists gives them an additional -1AP if they roll a natural 6 to wound.

 

I've run some numbers (I've got a degree in Maths so I'm pretty good at fairly basic - but time consuming - probability calculations) to work out expected numbers of wounds for a few different situations vs Space Marines. By expected wounds I mean probability each attack hits, wounds and save is failed, multiplied by number of attacks and multiplied by damage (only for the impaler does that matter as the other weapons are damage 1). I don't think it is the absolute best way to measure a units efficiency, but it is reasonably quick to calculate and gives you a reasonable idea.

 

I've based all of these figures on a unit of 10 wyches using the Cult of the Cursed Blade obsession (as this is the OP's chosen cult), so they're all at least S4 (or S5 with Grave Lotus). The figures for adrenalight assume the unit has charged (otherwise just use the figures for no combat drugs).

 

No upgrades (all using hekatarii blades)

No combat drugs (turns 1-2) = 7.59 wounds

No combat drugs (turns 3+) = 9.49 wounds (also works for Serpentin in any turn)

Grave Lotus (turns 1-2) = 9.87 wounds

Grave Lotus (turns 3+) = 12.34 wounds

Adrenalight (turns 1-2) = 9.44 wounds

Adrenalight (turns 3+) = 11.81 wounds

 

Fully loaded (power sword on hekatrix and one of each wych weapon)

No combat drugs (turns 1-2) = 10.31 wounds

No combat drugs (turns 3+) = 12.89 wounds (also works for Serpentin in any turn)

Grave Lotus (turns 1-2) = 12.57 wounds

Grave Lotus (turns 3+) = 15.72 wounds

Adrenalight (turns 1-2) = 12.98 wounds

Adrenalight (turns 3+) = 16.23 wounds

 

I think the main thing of interest to Dread here is that for the units of 10 wyches he is running, Adrenalight is the marginally more efficient option against Space Marines. That surprised me anyway. I've worked on the basis that with Adrenalight active the wych with razorflails gets 8 attacks (3 attacks, plus 1 then doubled) rather than 7 attacks (3 attacks doubled, then plus 1). If I'm wrong then you need to deduct 0.19 from the turn 1-2 result and 0.24 from the turn 3+ result.

 

There's potential to boost these results a little further with various buffs. The Succubus allows any wych cult core unit within 6" to re-roll 1s to wound in melee. A couple of stratagems could also help. Prey on the Weak allows you to re-roll 1s to wound if the enemy unit is below starting strength or re-roll all wounds if the unit is below half strength - probably only really worth it if you're outside Succubus aura range.

 

Hyperstimm Backlash costs 2CP, but it doubles the bonus of your combat drugs. Not really worth it if using Grave Lotus on Cursed Blade Wyches vs Space Marines; the only weapon that benefits is the hydra gauntlets (which would be hitting at a comical S8!). Adrenalight on the other hand goes quite insane when your basic wyches are rolling 6 attacks each and the razorflails wych is rolling 10 attacks (maybe 8) for a total of 64 attacks from the unit. If you're hitting the unit in turn 3+ (when power from pain gives you +1 to hit in melee) or you are using bloodbrides (who have WS2+ as standard), then I wouldn't be that surprised to see that unit of 10 wyches wipe a unit of 10 Space Marines of the board (the basic 2 wound, 3+ save guys, not Gravis stuff or Terminators etc.).

 

Having written yet another long post on wyches I will finish by saying that I don't think they are the greatest unit ever. I do believe they are much improved from the previous codex and I do think they can get work done. You can't throw them into anything the opponent has and expect them to total it; they're only a 6 power or 135 point unit so they shouldn't be able to either. They do have obvious weaknesses, particularly on the defense, though this can be overcome in some part by transporting them in the deceptively tough Raider. I would agree with Angel of Death that overwatch is something they should really fear; however, overwatch is a lot less scary now that it's a stratagem to use. And the age old tactic of charging the enemy unit with your Raiders/Venoms first is even more enticing now that Drukhari vehicles are vaguely competent in melee.

 

God I can't help myself... another stupidly long post in this thread!

How are you making 3 STR3 attacks into getting almost 10 wounds in one turn? They wound on 5+, the entire squad cant take special weapons.

 

You clearly must have gotten it a bit wrong there.

 

No matter how bombasticly you are going to glorify the wyches terrible stats, wyches are at worst, going to be a terrible unit, and at best, a mediocre one.