Attack Bikes after the MM

[Brother Ramael]

So, attack bikes cost 5 points more now, which means that the staple MM version coms for 60.

At the cheap cheap value of 70 we have MM Land Speeders, which for 10 points have better T, more wounds and fly while losing core ( which would not be huge except we have the Talonmaster so it kind of is).

If it was not for the Core factor, I'd jump in with switching them over..... what do you guys think?

 

Edit: since we're at it, the news about Orks seems to increase the value of poor old Assault cannons and Onslaught ones... so again, LS and ATV?

Edited June 1, 2021 by Brother Ramael

[davextreme]

It’s useful to also compare the Multi-Melta ATV. T5 but more wounds than the Land Speeder. Damage/point, the Attack Bike is still on top even after the points nerf, though. But yeah, the other units’ strengths start to come out.

 

Regarding new Orks, I updated a little spreadsheet I made for the Ravenwing units. Mathhammer doesn’t tell the whole story, obviously, but here are the changes.

 

The newly 135 point Storm Speeder Hailstrike and the Land Speeder Tornado (Heavy Bolter + Assault Cannon) are now (I think) the Ravenwing’s top Ork killers, damage per point. That assumes you’re in range of the Hailstrike’s Fragstorm and are getting full blast. The Tornado’s longer range probably makes it the winner.

 

Just behind them is the Invader ATV (Onslaught Gatling Cannon), which was already one of our most efficient units for killing lower toughness targets. (It kills hordes much more efficiently than the Multi-Melta variety kills hard targets, incidentally.)

 

After that (again, damage/points-wise), you can look at Bike Squads with Flamers or just Heavy Bolter Attack Bikes. Land Speeder Vengeance with Blast kills Orks well and there’s no need to supercharge. The Nephilim Jetfighter’s 10 S5 Avenger Meta Bolter shots would be effective, too.

 

The Frag Missile Land Speeder Typhoon really takes a hit from only being S4. Even with all 12 hits from the Blast rule against a mob you only get 2.2 dead Orks plus one more from the Heavy Bolter.

[Vulshra]

I think it's also worth noting core allows the chief apothicary to bring back attack bikes, whereas that can't be done with speeders.

 

I've also always been a fan of ABs as part of large bike squads, combat squading into a kill squad (special weapons and attack bike) and an insect (chainsword) squad, depending on opponent. With the higher price, this may be one of the better ways to run them so they have more shielding at least in some squads, plus gaining obsec

[FarFromSam]

I'm at a cross roads with the Angel's. My list went up 130 points... I can't imagine playing my list with one of the units missing. I was struggling as is, and had never come close to beating dark eldar.

 

I'd say that with bikes and chief apoth going up in points it might not be worth the points to heal bikes.

[ValourousHeart]

I think it's also worth noting core allows the chief apothicary to bring back attack bikes, whereas that can't be done with speeders.

 

I've also always been a fan of ABs as part of large bike squads, combat squading into a kill squad (special weapons and attack bike) and an insect (chainsword) squad, depending on opponent. With the higher price, this may be one of the better ways to run them so they have more shielding at least in some squads, plus gaining obsec

 

You can repair speeders with a Techmarine.  It certainly not as efficient as the apothecary and attack bikes.  

[march10k]

I'm at a cross roads with the Angel's. My list went up 130 points... I can't imagine playing my list with one of the units missing. I was struggling as is, and had never come close to beating dark eldar.

 

I'd say that with bikes and chief apoth going up in points it might not be worth the points to heal bikes.

Wouldn't the points increase on bikes offset the points increase on the chief in terms of the efficiency of healing bikes?  I mean, my ambulance focuses on healing terminators and inceptors, so I'm not really sure.

[Angel of Solitude]

I'm at a cross roads with the Angel's. My list went up 130 points... I can't imagine playing my list with one of the units missing. I was struggling as is, and had never come close to beating dark eldar.

 

I'd say that with bikes and chief apoth going up in points it might not be worth the points to heal bikes.

 

To me, the debate hasn't been whether to remove the Ravenwing Apothecary, but instead whether to keep it vanilla and pay 1CP each time I need to revive somebody. Each command phase you generate 1CP, so notionally that's your revival CP if needed. Having them in your army is just too valuable - being able to revive some 300 points over the course of a battle is worth it's value IMO. My current thinking is that I'd rather drop a Deathwing Terminator than the Chief Apoc upgrade, so I'll see how that goes as I play some games.

[Vulshra]

The question is would you pay 35 pts for a 2 CP? You will probably res 3 units per game, which will cost 3cp, it costs the 1 to add the warlord trait, so it's 35 pts for 2cp and the auto healing of 3 wounds instead of D3.

[Karhedron]

Given that we have access to a Chief Apothecary who can keep up with our fast units, I would say that MM Attack Bikes are still worthwhile for us. For other Chapters, it makes more sense to unshackle the MMs and put them on other platforms. Dark Angels and Blood Angels have faster apothecaries and thus can leverage the benefits of of the Attack Bike better.

[Xenith]

Can't bring a speeder back with an Apothecary. Point increase on bike just means the Apoc provides more value when he heals now, so it's moot. That's assuming you bring a unit of 3 ATB's. In a unit of 1, the ATV is probably better due to transhuman and being healed by the Apoc. Base landspeeders need to be ~50pts, 60 with mm to make me think twice.

 

2+ATB>ATV>Speeder

[Skywrath]

How many of MM's bikes do you usually run in any list out of curiosity? I have 6 in one of my DA lists, wondering if that's too much. 

[Angel of Solitude]

The question is would you pay 35 pts for a 2 CP? You will probably res 3 units per game, which will cost 3cp, it costs the 1 to add the warlord trait, so it's 35 pts for 2cp and the auto healing of 3 wounds instead of D3.

 

Yes, that's a trade-off that I still think is worth it for a few reasons. First, I think an extra 2CP in your hand gives you more flexibility than an extra 35 points - a disturbing number of our stratagems weigh in at that 2CP mark. Second, don't underestimate the value of not just healing all wounds and not D3, but also the fact that you can also do this twice. I played a game last night, and in one turn I was able to heal two attack bikes back up to full strength, and bring another one back. Not a bad return for 35 points IMO.

 

How many of MM's bikes do you usually run in any list out of curiosity? I have 6 in one of my DA lists, wondering if that's too much. 

Currently 6 for me too - 3 squads of 2.