Fix BA with 2 Stratagems.

[Morticon]

Greetings all! 

 

Just wanted to have a quick thought experiment that I think can be applied to multiple factions /armies but could be more interesting to see with BA given the fact its a 9th ed dex, but one of the first. 

 

Here are the rules!

 

 

Come up with 2 Stratagems - and only 2 strats - the inclusion of which will go a long way to "fixing" some big BA issues. 

 

 

That's it! 

Simple! 

 

Let's see what you got! (and where you think the issues are!)  

 

 

[Helias_Tancred]

Greetings all! 

 

Just wanted to have a quick thought experiment that I think can be applied to multiple factions /armies but could be more interesting to see with BA given the fact its a 9th ed dex, but one of the first. 

 

Here are the rules!

 

 

Come up with 2 Stratagems - and only 2 strats - the inclusion of which will go a long way to "fixing" some big BA issues. 

 

 

That's it! 

 

Simple! 

 

Let's see what you got! (and where you think the issues are!)  

 

Given the strength of the codexes that have been released recently (Dark Angels, Death Guard, Drukhari, and now Ad Mech) the Blood Angel stratagem nerfs between 8th and 9th are without warrant.

 

For us the two most important are Descent of Angels, and Upon Wings of Fire. They should have both been written into 9th edition unchanged from 8th edition. They would be what we need.

 

Honorable mention is Red Rampage.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Helias Tancred

[keeblerartillery]

I think the first would be giving BA an advance and charge strat. Honestly I would be good with that alone

[The Unseen]

Hmm.
Well, our biggest problems are the inability to get into melee without getting shot up, and objective trickery.
I would bring back 3d6 charge and/or an advance and charge strat. The fact that we lost assault out of deepstrike play and are now no better than any other chapter at it, and quite a bit worse compared to other choices *cough scars and DA cough* is mind-boggling still. Instead now we get to give Inceptors +1 to hit the turn they land. Hurray?

That would really help us bring back that crucial moment to leverage a charge. Basically once BA lose the board control, we don't have a good way of regaining it like we used to.

 

And Upon Wings of Fire was A. Really Grade A cool, B. Helped push us towards jump pack units, and C. Was really useful for objective play without being absurdly broken. I would probably add the limitation of not being able to use it round 1, because spending 3cp to effectively get a deep strike assault turn 1 was a little broken, and I have a feeling thats why GW removed it. It wouldn't even raise eyebrows in 9th now.

[Morticon]

I would say firstly,

 

a 2CP - "Fights First and Counts as Charging" style strat would go a long way.  

 

It seems quite like GW to create special rules, then rules to break those special rules.  So, something to get around the DG and Judiciar and all the other "fights last" abilities that are so ubiquitous now would not only be really helpful for us as a CC army, but also reminiscent of the old "Furious Charge" initiative bonus we got. 

 

This would stack really well with our inherent chapter tactics as well as our "uber doctrine" - making it a really choice, but niche option.

 

Secondly, like others have said too, 

 

I would bring back the 3d6"  (only picking 2) charge - and would probably also stack that with allowing advance and charge for Jump Pack Infantry to play into our fluff - if the unit did not arrive from reserve.  If the unit did,  I would have it straight 3d6". 

 

"Use this Stratagem at the start of the Charge Phase.  Pick one unit that did not arrive from reserve this turn. This unit may roll 3d6 for the charge, discarding the lowest die.  In addition, if the unit picked is a Jump Pack Infantry unit, that unit may make a charge move even if it advanced.  Alternatively, you may pick a Jump Pack Infantry unit that arrived from reserve this turn.  That unit may roll 3d6 for the charge distance" 

 

 

Honestly think that would work wonders for us.  


Reason I ask the question is I realised how minimal tweaks can make such a huge impact to the effectiveness of an army. 

[Hintzy]

In the spirit of making Blood Angels comparable to the much more powerful/recent books, I'm going to swing for the fence.

 

2cp: Pick one Death Company unit in the fight phase, that unit can fight a second time this phase, and during it's second fight activation can attack units within engagement range after piling in even if those units were not declared targets of a charge.

 

1cp: Select one jump pack unit. If used in your opponent's charge phase this unit can heroically intervene 6". If used in your fight phase this unit can pile-in and consolidate 6". Enemy infantry units within engagement range of this unit cannot be chosen to make a fall back move in their next movement phase.

[Morticon]

I like that DC one with the pile in and fight.  Reminiscent of older editions and limited to DC - so not uber broken. 

[DantesRevenge]

Hi all, returning blood angels player here from 3rd / 4th ed.

 

I like the advance and charge stat for jump packs, or could even have a disembark and charge strat (reminiscent of the rhino rush days). Would certainly make transports more viable.

 

A tear strat for the Furioso, so it's fists become D3+3 against vehicles and monsters.

 

Also, I know this isn't a strat but death company should either be fearless again or auto-pass combat attrition, the fact that you can't fall back from combat but will run away even though you think that you're Sanguinius doesn't make much sense.

[Blindhamster]

i'd say an advance and charge strat available to everyone would be more logical to BA - they're all about getting up close quickly, NOT purely via jump packs.

but yeah the second strat should be something to make jump troops for BA stand out more, perhaps something to make them more survivable on the turn they drop (thinking day of revelations from HH here - an invulnerable save for jump troops the turn they come in, or a -1 to hit them or -1 to wound them or -1 damage against them).

[YogiDaAngel]

I like Blindhamster idea of some durability boost for jp infantry when they come in from deep strike.

 

Advance and charge is also good but I would suggest something different.

 

Strat which allows assault marines to be slotted as troops. 1 CP for unit of 5, 2 cp for unit of 10 can be used max 3 times. I think it's fluffy and give us more mobility from troop slot for objective game and some nice unique gimmicks. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by YogiDaAngel

[Xenith]

Strat 1: Speed of Sanguinius: Pick one unit, that unit Strikes First. Until the end of the phase ignore any abilities that say this unit cannot be chosen to attack until all other units can. 

 

Strat 2: 3d6 charge pick 2 highest. 

 

Bonus Strat instead of #2: Unit deploying via Death From Above may deploy within 3" of an enemy unit. 

 

Really, BA are poorly done.

If I'm allowed 2 rule changes instead:

 

What I'd like to see is BA getting the White Scar advance and charge rule, as BA are known for advancing to the detriment of their shooting. White scars should get a flat +2" movement to VEHICLE and +1" to infantry like Evil Sunz. 

 

So Blood Angels Chapter Doctrine is advance + charge and +1 to the wound roll.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Xenith

[Rhavien]

Seeing all the bonkers strats and abilities other 9th edition codizies got it's hard to only pick two but I would suggest:

 

Descent of Angels 2CP: 3d6 charge out of deepstrike, pick highest 2 dice. Get +1 to hit for this meele phase.

 

Upon wings of fire 2CP: At the beginning of any phase of the players turn, set one unit equipped with jump packs back into strategic reserve.

 

Bonus

Lucifer Engines: Instead of rolling a vehicle auto advances 6inch. All heavy and rapid fire weapons become assault type for this turn and don't suffer the -1 for advancing and shooting.

[Helias_Tancred]

 

... Really, BA are poorly done.

 

 

After reading my Dark Angel supplement, yeah I realized this too. The design team that did that one had a very good idea of how the army should play. Their stratagems, warlord traits, etc synergize very well with their units.

[Djangomatic82]

 

 

... Really, BA are poorly done.

 

 

After reading my Dark Angel supplement, yeah I realized this too. The design team that did that one had a very good idea of how the army should play. Their stratagems, warlord traits, etc synergize very well with their units.

 

I'll second that sentiment.

 

 

Strat 1: (1/3CP) For the Emperor and Sanguinius!: Use this Stratagem at the end of a fight phase. Select on <Blood Angels> Character model or model that has the word "Sergeant" in their profile, that is within engagement range of any enemy units; that unit can fight again. If the target of this stratagem is a Character model, this stratagem costs 3cp, otherwise it costs 1 cp.

 

Strat 2: (1CP) Day of Sorrows: Use this Stratagem in your Command phase. Select one Death Company unit. It gains the Day of Sorrows ability until the beginning of the next turn. A unit can only be the target of this ability once per game.

 

Day of Sorrows: when a model in this unit is destroyed, if it does not explode, you can

use this ability instead of using any other abilities that

take effect as a result of this model being destroyed (e.g. Astartes

Banner). If you do, this model is not removed from play until

the start of the next turn or the end of the battle (whichever

comes first). Until that happens, it is still considered to be in play,

but any further wounds this model would lose are not lost.

(Personally i think the Black rage should be reduxed to this ability as standard, but thats not what Mort asked for.)

Edited June 4, 2021 by Djangomatic82

[BrotherAetherick]

Some sort of advance and charge and/or fall back and charge for jump pack units. All the good melee factions have this and it's ridiculous we don't have any access to this besides a relic and Sanguinor for fall back and charge.

 

If they really don't want us to have the mobility of advance/fall back and charge, then descent of angels should have kept 3d6 charge but drop the lowest. Not as auto charge as the old version but significantly increase our chances. And with upon wings of fire being nerfed it gives time for the opponent to set up screens again instead of the feels bad of the old combo.

 

With so many things getting transhuman I would like a stratagem that could counter it. Feels terrible that our chapter tactic doesn't even work against many of the top armies. Maybe 2 cp - reroll to wound in melee and ignore any transhuman effects for the round.

 

Also Sang guard should be WS 2 and heirs should just be the bodyguard rule for snipers. Why everyone else's elite melee unit (deathshroud, deathwing, incubi) are WS2 but Sang guard need a condition is baffling to me.

[Tokugawa]

1. Find a Black templars pdf rules copy.

 

2. Randomly pick 2 from "Devout push", "Tenacious assault", or "Emperor's will".

 

3. Done! =)

Edited June 6, 2021 by Tokugawa

[Vermintide]

Two ideas.

 

Advance and Charge: Select a unit that advanced. That unit may also declare a charge.

 

Obvious one, most of you have already proposed it, frankly that one has always been a bit of a glaring omission. I guess the logic is that it would be overpowered for us with how strong Red Thirst is, but still. Does what it says on the tin and gives us a bit more threat range and versatility.

 

Post-Consolidate Normal Move: If no enemy models are within engagement range of this unit at the end of the combat phase, then this unit may make a normal move after consolidating as though it were the movement phase.

 

This one just covers up for what I feel has always been a weakness of melee in general, within the turn-based mechanisms of Warhammer, particularly the last couple of editions. Melee relies on getting in up close and personal, but successfully killing your target leaves you sat out in the open and vulnerable. This means melee units are often one-shot wonders that get wiped off the table the next turn, and it encourages the gamey nonsensical stuff like "hostage taking" by tri-pointing. With an elite army like BA, we can't afford to give away expensive units in unfavourable trades, but that's a punishment the game often kind of forces on us.

 

My thinking here is that you know how in like, pool? You always want to set up the next shot a move ahead. You pot a ball and you leave the cue ball in position to shoot the next one. That's what we need to be able to do with our charging units, but with the way the rules work for melee, you basically can't, outside of specific and often somewhat contrived circumstances. The extra flexibility to have your guys jump back into the nearby cover, or push ahead to get in the face of their next target, would do a lot to get more use out of our units.

 

Also:

 

I'm also going to put in a suggestion for reworking the Black Rage. I think a mere extra attack and a 6+++ is a very poor representation of the complete psychopaths these guys are meant to be. Instead I would make Black Rage give +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and immunity to morale. Or maybe keep the extra attack, but give them a permanent effect akin to Transhuman Physiology, and make it constant instead of just on the charge. There's a few things you could do, but the Black Rage should be a big deal, in a way it just isn't right now. When has that 6+++ ever made a serious impact for anyone?

[BrotherAetherick]

I'm also going to put in a suggestion for reworking the Black Rage. I think a mere extra attack and a 6+++ is a very poor representation of the complete psychopaths these guys are meant to be. Instead I would make Black Rage give +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and immunity to morale. Or maybe keep the extra attack, but give them a permanent effect akin to Transhuman Physiology, and make it constant instead of just on the charge. There's a few things you could do, but the Black Rage should be a big deal, in a way it just isn't right now. When has that 6+++ ever made a serious impact for anyone?

 

Death company being Ld7 and not fearless is a crime.

[Leonaides]

True. They mostly aren't even truly aware of what they are facing, so how can they be afraid (not the right word but in the interest of brevity) of it?

[Xenith]

Combat attrition (in my view) is also marines being pulled down under overwhelming odds. As it stands having a dude 'run away' is not fitting for a marine of any stripe. Combat attrition in melee is at least reminicent of the (5th ed?) fearless rule where they took additional armour saves if beaten in combat but didnt fall back. 

 

They should be immune to attrition in the shooting phase though. 

[Vermintide]

It made a kind of sense back when it was the old "And They Shall Know No Fear", which let you automatically consolidate instead of being over-run, or however it worked. It wasn't the same thing as fearless, because if it makes tactical sense to retreat Marines will still retreat. Necrons had a similar explanation in their codex IIRC, to account for why the soulless ancient killing machines with no concept of pain or death would "fail" morale and fall back.

 

The way it works now fits in much less elegantly. In fact that's one of the few things I think they really missed an opportunity to address going from 8th to 9th, they didn't really make morale any more rational or impactful, they just added extra steps.

[jeremy1391]

Fear where angels tread 1/2cp: select one unit of sanguinary guard, sanguinary ancient, Dante, sanguinor any units that are in engagement range of the selected unit are treated as if they did not charge and cannot be selected to fight until all other eligible units have fought this turn. If the unit selected is 5 or less models this stratagem costs 1 cp, if the unit selected is 6 models or more it costs 2 cp.

 

Death to Horus!: 2CP select one unit with the Death Company keyword in the charge phase this unit may roll 3D6 when making a charge move.